Gutload and Vitamin A

[bcornellier]

Hi all!

What can I use in gutload (other than dried fish flakes) to provide Vitamin A to my feeders (and therefore to my cham)?

Thanks for your help.

 

[jannb]

Carrots have vitamin A.

 

[Jerm]

Carrots have vitamin A.

Actually, carrots have beta carotene which some animals can convert to vitamin A. Depending on the species of cham that you have will determine whether it has the ability to convert it or not. Beta carotene is also found in a lot of suppliments that you can purchase for reptiles.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Small amounts of quality Avian (bird) Pellets. Look for preformed vitamin A / Retinol on the label.

Dont over do it. Too much preformed vitamin A can be harmful.

 

[bcornellier]

Actually, carrots have beta carotene which some animals can convert to vitamin A. Depending on the species of cham that you have will determine whether it has the ability to convert it or not.

I have a Panther Chameleon (ambilobe). Is it a beta-carotene-friendly species?

 

[jannb]

The Rec Cal Herptivite also has the beta carotene and my vet Dr. Alfonse makes a multi vitamin with A that I give every now and then.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I have a Panther Chameleon (ambilobe). Is it a beta-carotene-friendly species?

No one knows for certain - there have been no scientific studies (to the best of my knowledge anyhow).

I do not provide Preformed Vitamin A to my chameleons. I use a fair bit of gutload and a dust containing beta carotene. My chameleons are fine. However they may get some indirectly from the variety of feeders I offer.
Other people insist that preformed Vitamin A is REQUIRED by chameleons. Offering a little is probably worthwhile and safe.

 

[bcornellier]

I do offer Rep-Cal Herptivite twice a month to my 6 months old panther (as well as other supplementations: Minerall-O twice a month, calcium w/t D3 twice a month, Calcium without D3 twice a week). I offer varied gutloads to my crickets (zuchinni slices, collard green, endives, potatoes, dandelion leaves, romaine lettuce, carrots, rolled oat, and fish flakes a couple of times a week). I feed the cham about 8 medium-sized crickets a day, plus a few mealworms, butterworms and the odd wax worm (for treats) on a weekly basis. Other suggestions? Or do you wise people consider that I am on the safe side?

The cham also has plenty of water (automatic mister, 4 times a day for up to 4 minutes), 5.0 UV light, basking light...

 

[jannb]

I think you're doing plenty if not too much. I would not use the fish flakes.....could cause gout and instead of mealworms, which are hard to digest, try superworms, hornworms, phoenix worms and silkworms.

 

[sandrachameleon]

If it were me, I'd reduce the use of mealworms to "treat" status and offer only sparingling. Butterworms are fine, as are sikworms and hornworms.

I'd also greatly reduce the use of fish flake food and potatoes (little nutritional value) as part of your gutload. Fish flakes once or twice a year is unlikely to hurt, but too much animal protein can be harmful.

 

[bcornellier]

Thank you very much guys. That's all useful. I truly appreciate it. Indeed, I guess I'll let go of the fish flakes then. As for the rest, I think little Iggy (my cham) is in good hands.

 

[tkilgour]

Yes, Vitamin A w/ retinol can help aid a suffering panther after a stressfull shipping to a new home. Also, carrots are great foods to feed crickets, they have beta carotene which can be converted to vit. A. Also, there are rep-cal supplements I like to use.

 

[kinyonga]

tkilgour...do you have a paper or book or something that talks about retinol/vitamin A helping with stress?

Also, I don't know of any paper that proves whether any/all chameleons can convert beta carotene to preformed vitamin A.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Also, carrots are great foods to feed crickets, they have beta carotene which can be converted to vit. A.

Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcornellier
I have a Panther Chameleon (ambilobe). Is it a beta-carotene-friendly species?

No one knows for certain - there have been no scientific studies (to the best of my knowledge anyhow).

Actually, some of us do know for certain, and have written of it extensively, here and elsewhere. Apparently, YOU may never know for certain
Panther chameleons are not a "beta-carotene friendly species". Besides the "scientific evidence" developed here over the years of panther chameleons being fed beta-carotene and developing vitamin A deficiencies, here's "evidence from a scientist", Dr. Gary Ferguson:

Link:http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/chat-with-dr-gary-w-ferguson.html

The relevent passages:

6. Since we are still in the topics of nutrition, what is your standing on the necessity of supplementing a preformed vitamin A VS beta-carotene?
I went through a period where I gut-loaded crickets with carrots but deprived them of preformed vitamin A and the chameleons developed vitamin A deficiency. This was surprising because humans can use beta-carotene for our vitamin A needs. So, I recommend using preformed vitamin A either as a direct supplement or in insect feeds.
7. Are you familiar with the reason why they cannot convert beta-carotene into Vitamin A? Also, how is it in the wild, they satisfy their need of Retinol? As a chameleon keeper, this topic seems to be controversial among people. Is there a more thorough study that addresses this matter?
I don’t know why the carotene in carrots couldn’t be converted. It could be that other carotenes in the guts of wild plant-eating insects can be. It could also be why panthers sometimes occasionally eat lizards and nestling birds, which should be a good source of retinol. I think it is a good idea to feed panthers large pinkies or small lizards, such as anoles, occasionally, if they will eat them. There indeed needs to be more study on this subject.

Some products that help:

Zoo-Med's Reptivite powder.
Fluker Cricket gutload.
Poly-Vi-Sol (by Enfamil) liquid vitamins for infants.

 

[tkilgour]

Actually yes, I do have a paper about the physiological effects of Vitamin A, as well as Vitamin A deficiency and excess states. I can e-mail the paper to you later today. It was written by Author R. Bowen in 1999 in a biomedical glossary. The defiency can cause blindness, risk of mortality, abnormal function of my epithelial cells and abnormal bone growth.

Carrots DO NOT contain vitamin A, but contain carotenoids such as beta-carotene that serves as provitamins because they are converted within the intestinal mucosa to retinol during absorbtion. In raising cattle vitamin A deficiency is usually due to lack of green feed, such as animals coming off of a dry summer pastures or those fed poor quality hay. Because the liver stores large amounts of retinol, deficiency states typically take several months to develop. Therefore, this would lead me to believe that Vit. supplementation is essential in the chameleons, as well as gut loading healthy greens. However, I was wrong in saying carrots contain vitamin A, they actually carry carotenoids that are converted to retinol.

 

[tkilgour]

Therefore, this would lead me to believe that Vit. supplementation is essential in the chameleons, as well as gut loading healthy greens. However, I was wrong in saying carrots contain vitamin A, they actually carry carotenoids that are converted to retinol.

Also, as mentioned above there isn't much scientific evidence that supports the chameleons ability to convert beta carotene into Vitamin A. Humans and other herbivores do so. However, in chameleons it is not proven.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Some of the original studies regarding vitamin A and pardalis date back to the late 90's, and were referenced extensively in some publications, to include the Journal of the Chameleon Information Network. I have the written version, but do not have the right to print it here, nor the time frankly. Dr. Ferguson was a part of those studies then. Dr. Scott Stahl also participated. I have asked the Forum poobahs to create a sticky about some of the information, if for no other reason, to help counter the same misinformation that is recycled over and over here.

I am also of the opinion that some species of primarily non-herbivorous chameleons are far less prone to vitamin A deficiency than pardalis. I say "primarily" as it is our experience that all species munch some vegetation-soil etc on occasion. For instance, Oustalets have a much lower frequency of vitamin A issues in our experience, and while they are very prone to eat other vertebrates, such as smaller chameleons and lizards, this observation includes when they are denied such food sources, and are raised on the same diet as pardalis.

There is a good body of evidence out there supporting the conclusion that pardalis do not convert beta-carotene to Vitamin A. More would be known about other species if more work was done with them, but as of now, no "bail-out" monies have yet been ear-marked

Our experience with attempting to deliver Vitamin A via gut-load also showed it to be inadequate. We dose it directly.

 

[tkilgour]

You know your stuff at the chameleon company for sure. You guys do a lot of research, that makes it helpful for us all!

 

[TreelionsUK]

Since jim put me in the know a while ago,i have had great results!!!
Many thanks jim

 

[sandrachameleon]

Actually, some of us do know for certain, and have written of it extensively, here and elsewhere. Apparently, YOU may never know for certain .

I will know for certain when there are reliable scientific studies, as opposed to your and Dr Gary Ferguson and other persons personal opinions and anicdotal experiences. In saying this I am not belittling what is undeniable considerable experience. Merely saying that it has not been scientifically studied. Or if it has, no one has as yet pointed me to such a study. Even you have as yet been unable to suggest any reason why many keepers are entirely successfull in keeping chameleons WITHOUT the use of preformed Vitamin A. In reminding you of this, Im not saying chameleons dont need it either. Indeed I have made several (not overly successfull) attempts to determine if my (and perhaps other keepers) chameleons are getting preformed A through the insects offered. NO ONE truly, as yet, knows for sure if chameleons require preformed vitamin A. There are only a vast number of opinions. Opinions are not facts.

I do not wish to discourage anyone from giving their chameleons SMALL controlled amounts of Preformed Vitamin A. Anacdotal evidence suggests this is a safe and possibly desirable thing to do. One should inform themselves about the potential benefits and known risks, and follow their own reason accordingly.