Gutload and Vitamin A

Sandra,

So someone is supposed to pony up the funds, allocate the resources, time, etc., to fund a "scientific study" that meets your definition of such ? Dr. Gary Ferguson's work dates back to the '90's, and was then reinforced with field study. Do you have his book, btw ? Did you read his interview ?

Others are "completely successful" without pre-formed A ? Point me to one breeder who has results on-par with Mother Nature ? Eh ? (A little Canadian lingo :D) To begin with, half the "breeders" are actually "hatchers", but even so, none get "complete success". Zip. Additionally, I will make the educated extrapolation that for every chamemleon that is showing symptoms of deficiency, there are 3 that are deficient but not yet showing it visually.

"You can lead a horse to water ......... ;)"

Thanks TreeLions.
 
Chameleon Company said:
So someone is supposed to pony up the funds, allocate the resources, time, etc., to fund a "scientific study" that meets your definition of such ? Dr. Gary Ferguson's work dates back to the '90's, and was then reinforced with field study. Do you have his book, btw ? Did you read his interview ?

Others are "completely successful" without pre-formed A ? Point me to one breeder who has results on-par with Mother Nature ? Eh ? (A little Canadian lingo :D) To begin with, half the "breeders" are actually "hatchers", but even so, none get "complete success". Zip. Additionally, I will make the educated extrapolation that for every chamemleon that is showing symptoms of deficiency, there are 3 that are deficient but not yet showing it visually.

"You can lead a horse to water ......... ;)"

Thanks TreeLions.
Click to expand...

But You can't make it drink;)!!! Why do some people roadblock this:rolleyes:
This is Forward Progress!
 
Why do some people roadblock this
Click to expand...

The research? I guess any research that is not aimed at benefiting humanity directly gets lowest priority ? Its a shame, we really need to learn as much as we can about
the life that shares our world. Reptile research has always been a battle, funding always hard to get. Ask for a grant to study why people drool more while watching chocolate commercials (or some such crap) and you wont have a problem. :D
 
Chameleon Company said:
So someone is supposed to pony up the funds, allocate the resources, time, etc., to fund a "scientific study" that meets your definition of such ? Dr. Gary Ferguson's work dates back to the '90's, and was then reinforced with field study. Do you have his book, btw ? Did you read his interview ?

Others are "completely successful" without pre-formed A ? Point me to one breeder who has results on-par with Mother Nature ? Eh ? (A little Canadian lingo :D) To begin with, half the "breeders" are actually "hatchers", but even so, none get "complete success". Zip. Additionally, I will make the educated extrapolation that for every chamemleon that is showing symptoms of deficiency, there are 3 that are deficient but not yet showing it visually.

"You can lead a horse to water ......... ;)"

Thanks TreeLions.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have the book and have read the interview opinions.
Yes, in order for a proper study to be done, it would cost money.
I'm not attacking you or Dr. Ferguson. I'm just pointing out that these opinions are not scientific studies. There's no reason to get hot about it. I am not road blocking, nor discounting your experiences. Is there some reason why you discount mine?

Yes there are breeders who are successfull without supplementing with preformed vitamin A. I myself have been entirely successfull in breeding (on a very small scale compared to you, but successfull nevertheless) and keeping long-lived healthy chameleons without supplementing with Vitamin A. They are not deficient. As you well know, Lynda's chameleons are also healthy. Her opinions and experiences, if not mine, you surely respect? She also doesnt use preformed vitamin A supplements.

Despite my success without preformed Vitamin A, I always do my level best to provide advice that includes the option of controlled use of preformed vitamin A. I, for one, do my best to provide a balanced view, rather than just push my own opinions.

In doing so above, I was merely answering the question accurately, which is to say no one knows for sure, based on study rather than just on opinion and personal experiences.

Surely you can see the difference?
But if you prefer, go right ahead and keep unfairly bashing your dead horse.
 
Sandra,

These were your words before I ever posted:

No one knows for certain - there have been no scientific studies (to the best of my knowledge anyhow).
Click to expand...

And yet, you now acknowledge an awareness to Dr. Ferguson's work and beliefs. Secondly, the OP was somewhat of a newbie, and you have participated in other Vitamin A threads, yet you were discounting much of what others do believe and have expressed prior with "no one knows for certain". That is an egregiously inaccurate statement to make. A more accurate assessment would be that while you may not think much of it, many others swear by it, to include some of the biggest in the study, care, and breeding of chameleons.

Lastly, to discount the work of Dr. Ferguson and others as "anecdotal" is absurd. Was he supposed to spend more time and money ? His study was not "proper"? The work of Dr. Scott Stahl, Ardi Abate, and others was not "proper"? :eek:

I think what people expect here is that opinions be qualified, either with your own experience, or with information you can cite or link to. If you state something as fact, when it may actually be a minority opinion, might I suggest you be a bit better prepared for the critique which I hope someone will deliver. ;).
 
I have read as much as I can about Dr. Ferguson's study but no where can I find out anything about what was given to the chameleons (and the insects that they eat) in the way of D3 (supplements) while the chameleon's were not being given any preformed vitamin A.

D3 and preformed vitamin A are antagonistic to each other in some ways so unless its been proven that the levels of D3 were such that they didn't interfere with the decrease in preformed vitamin A I don't think it can be said that the resulting vitamin A deficiencies seen by Dr. Ferguson as a result of him cutting out the preformed vitamin A were strictly from not providing preformed vitamin A.

As Sandra said....I don't give my panthers (or other chameleons, or other reptiles) any preformed vitamin A supplements. I have also said that I have no control over what the insects were given before I got them...but since I get them ahead of time and feed them nothing but greens and veggies, I would think that the only preformed vitamin A they would have is what an insect would normally have for its color and vision, etc.

I also have taken many bodies in for autopsy and only ever had one come back reporting a vitamin A deficiency...and it was from the first batch of eggs produced by a WC female C. chamaeleon that had obvious problems from the day it was born. (All the others from that clutch were fine.)

Also, you will notice that when talking about supplements, I always say that some people give preformed vitamin A because some/all chameleons have not been proven to be able to convert it.
 
Dr. Ferguson is not the only entity of knowledge to conclude that pardalis given beta-carotene as a pro-formed source, without any other apparent source, often develop vitamin A deficiency. You can go with all the "if's" and "but's" etc, and all the "well, I don'ts", but that doesn't change the multiple observations by very qualified folks that these issues do develop. There seems to be a continuing theme with some that, if they do not experience the problem themselves, then it isn't a credible issue with others. There may be other influences as well, but we do not know ! What we do know is that the condition occurs, and if you do not plan for it, or then ignore it once it happens, or attempt to resolve it my pumping more carrots into everything, your problem will not resolve. Dr's Ferguson and Stahl and others concluded that a regular regimen or pre-formed A will prevent the problem, and there is much to be said for being pro-active in one's approach rather than try to fix a negative condition once it occurs.

Additionally, and as I mentioned earlier, the evidence strongly suggests that the degree of this being a problem varies by species. I cannot speak much for other species besides pardalis because I do not feel qualified to talk about species where I may have only worked with 10-50 for a year or two. It is not just an issue that effects the eyes, but also fertility, hatch rates, and many other observable results. Those results take time to develop. We also know it wreaks havoc that we often do not see.

FYI, we have seen it occur with and without D3 supplementation in pardalis.

Its a wonderful topic, amongst similar others, where we all look to close the gap between captive husbandry, and its failures, and how we can better replicate whatever it is that Mother Nature does better than us. While it may be great and wonderfull that you have only ever had one necropsy come back "Vitamin A short", I think the larger issue here for you to share is to solve the problem for some bloke in England, or some newbie in CA, or even with "experienced" breeders, about solving a vitamin A deficiency in their pet pardalis. My point to you is that you cannot do that any more than I can short of intervention with pre-formed A. Put another way, what solution or cure have you been able to pass on to others that they could then replicate long-term in statistically significant quantity ? I do not mean that as a slight, just an attempt to define remedies that avoid the problem. We would all enjoy a better mastery of avoiding the problem, and being able to then pass that on, but for now, we go with what we got.

If I die, and reincarnate as a pet chameleon, can I be yours ;)
 
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Chameleon Company said:
These were your words before I ever posted:No one knows for certain - there have been no scientific studies (to the best of my knowledge anyhow).

And yet, you now acknowledge an awareness to Dr. Ferguson's work and beliefs. Secondly, the OP was somewhat of a newbie, and you have participated in other Vitamin A threads, yet you were discounting much of what others do believe and have expressed prior with "no one knows for certain". That is an egregiously inaccurate statement to make. A more accurate assessment would be that while you may not think much of it, many others swear by it, to include some of the biggest in the study, care, and breeding of chameleons.

Lastly, to discount the work of Dr. Ferguson and others as "anecdotal" is absurd. Was he supposed to spend more time and money ? His study was not "proper"? The work of Dr. Scott Stahl, Ardi Abate, and others was not "proper"? :eek:

I think what people expect here is that opinions be qualified, either with your own experience, or with information you can cite or link to. If you state something as fact, when it may actually be a minority opinion, might I suggest you be a bit better prepared for the critique which I hope someone will deliver. ;).
Click to expand...

What I read by Dr. Ferguson was not a scientific study. The heading of the interview is something like "A Chat with Dr Ferguson", and the article is presented in an informal interview format. This does not suggest a great deal of expense or study, but opinion, beliefs. Thus, what I said remains accurate, despite your attempt to twist it.

I have never " discounting much of what others do believe " - that seems to be your position, discounting what people other than you and Dr. Ferguson have experienced.

On the contrary, I have always provided a balanced opinion, and have stated very clearly that many people choose to use preformed vitamin A. Re-read what I have said in this thread alone, and you will see:
"I do not wish to discourage anyone from giving their chameleons SMALL controlled amounts of Preformed Vitamin A. Anacdotal evidence suggests this is a safe and possibly desirable thing to do. "​
and before you even joined the conversation:
"I do not provide Preformed Vitamin A to my chameleons. I use a fair bit of gutload and a dust containing beta carotene. My chameleons are fine. However they may get some indirectly from the variety of feeders I offer.
Other people insist that preformed Vitamin A is REQUIRED by chameleons. Offering a little is probably worthwhile and safe."​
and also
sandrachameleon said:
Small amounts of quality Avian (bird) Pellets. Look for preformed vitamin A / Retinol on the label. Dont over do it. Too much preformed vitamin A can be harmful.
Click to expand...

Indeed in many occassions, where i know a person is providing a very limited number of prey choices and is gutloading poorly, I've suggested that vitamin A is one of the things their chameleon may be deficient in.

The only caution I have ever provided, in this thread and elsewhere, is to indicate that too much preformed vitamin A can be toxic, something I think you also understand and agree with, and thus some caution is warranted.

When I speak to my experiences, I do not present them as facts. Unlike you.

You seem to have a continuing theme that because you have apparently been unsuccessfull unless you supplement with pre-formed vitamin A, that the rest of us must be wrong. You never bother to present BOTH opinions, never acknowledge the experiences of others who unlike you are successfull without preformed vitamin A.

I am not telling an untruth when I say I dont use preformed vitamin A, havent in move than ten years of keeping chameleons. Im not sure why you have so much trouble accepting that this is possible?

NONE of us know everything. Not even you.

You ask "what solution or cure have you been able to pass on to others that they could then replicate long-term in statistically significant quantity "
Im not sure what problem it is we are supposed to be offering a cure for, but assuming you mean vitamin deficiency, well I personally try to give much effort to suggesting a wide variety of well gutloaded prey insects. I feel - and this is my personal experience, not backed up with scientific studies ;) - that this is the best way to ensure a chameleon gets what it needs, in the most natural way possible. This may not be easy or reasonable for someone like yourself with a big operation, where factors of time and costs are signficiant, but it is pretty do-able for the individual with a single chameleon. Its doable for me, and I have quite a few of the lovely creatures.

This thread was not, Im quite confident, supposed to be a place for you to grand stand. The poster asked what he or she could feed his insects instead of fish food flakes, for Vitamin A.
My answer was
sandrachameleon said:
Small amounts of quality Avian (bird) Pellets. Look for preformed vitamin A / Retinol on the label.
Dont over do it. Too much preformed vitamin A can be harmful.
Click to expand...
Only later do I say anything about my personal experiences NOT providing preformed vitamin A. Do you take acception to this answer? I cant see HOW you take acception to anything I have to say in this thread, given I often essentially somewhat support the same things you are saying.
 
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sandrachameleon said:
What I read by Dr. Ferguson was not a scientific study. The heading of the interview is something like "A Chat with Dr Ferguson", and the article is presented in an informal interview format. This does not suggest a great deal of expense or study, but opinion, beliefs. Thus, what I said remains accurate, despite your attempt to twist it.
Click to expand...

I am not trying to butt into this discussion (in which I hope it will still remain cool headed). And, I wish to remain neutral in the matter.

But, to clarify some misunderstanding since a part of my blog come up in the conversation, my way of presenting the interview format as informal and the title of "A chat with Dr. Ferguson" should not be used as a gauge for Dr. Ferguson's experience in this matter. I think when he speaks of his opinion/ beliefs about that particular topic, we should give the man a little bit of credit.
His curriculum vitae should be a good enough indication that he indeed have some snippets of experience or knowledge (perhaps more than all of us here) in the study about nutritional matters in regard to Panther chameleon and vitamin A.

http://www.bio.tcu.edu/faculty/ferguson/vita-2.htm

Anyway, I apologize if i somehow misunderstood the point you are making in the post i quote, Sandra.

Thanks
 
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dodolah said:
... my way of presenting the interview format as informal and the title of "A chat with Dr. Ferguson" should not be used as a gauge for Dr. Ferguson's experience in this matter. I think when he speaks of his opinion/ beliefs about that particular topic, we should give the man a little bit of credit. His curriculum vitae should be a good enough indication that he indeed have some snippets of experience or knowledge (perhaps more than all of us here) in the study about nutritional matters in regard to Panther chameleon and vitamin A.http://www.bio.tcu.edu/faculty/ferguson/vita-2.htmAnyway, I apologize if i somehow misunderstood the point you are making in the post i quote, Sandra.
Thanks
Click to expand...

No worries, the point was not whether or not Dr Ferguson is experienced, (Im sure he is) but that the interview was not a scientific study.

Glad you provided the link to the bio, Im going to check it out.
 
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Sandra do your chams receive natural sunlight?
The reason I ask, there may be a connection between vit.A needs and D3 production from natural sunlight.
 
Todnedo,

Not sure how it fits into the mix, but in our experience, with natural sunlight, D-3 had no effect on Vitamin A deficiencies one way or the other. That is based on a very large sampling.

Opinions are like the aft end of things. We all have them. Certain things I do not suffer well ;)
 
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Todnedo said:
Sandra do your chams receive natural sunlight?
The reason I ask, there may be a connection between vit.A needs and D3 production from natural sunlight.
Click to expand...

Nope. Indoors almost exclusively. I do have one that is more tolerant of handling, that perhaps once or twice a year on a nice summer day comes out with me. I do have UVB bulbs and dust with D3 on a semi-regular basis.

I believe kinyonga may keep her indoors also. So maybe you're on to something.

Chameleon Company said:
Not sure how it fits into the mix, but in our experience, with natural sunlight, D-3 had no effect on Vitamin A deficiencies one way or the other. That is based on a very large sampling.
Opinions are like the aft end of things. We all have them. Certain things I do not suffer well ;)
Click to expand...

rats. I was hoping there was a good hypothesis there.
I really truly would like to understand why mine do so well without this supposedly essential supplement.
 
You said..."There seems to be a continuing theme with some that, if they do not experience the problem themselves, then it isn't a credible issue with others"...I don't think I've ever said its not possible....but I have questioned why mine don't show any issues that could be the result a vitamin A deficiency. I also don't understand why pardalis eggs contain beta carotene if they can't convert it. (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract...Ellen S. Dierenfeld 1 *, Edward B. Norkus 2, Kathryn Carroll 1 3, Gary W. Ferguson 4). And as you said..."There may be other influences as well, but we do not know !"

You said..."there is much to be said for being pro-active in one's approach rather than try to fix a negative condition once it occurs"...but its also important IMHO not to fix what ain't broken.

You said..."We also know it wreaks havoc that we often do not see"...like what?

You said..."FYI, we have seen it occur with and without D3 supplementation in pardalis"...and no D3 in what was fed to them?

You said..."Put another way, what solution or cure have you been able to pass on to others that they could then replicate long-term in statistically significant quantity ? I do not mean that as a slight, just an attempt to define remedies that avoid the problem."...if I don't have any apparent signs of vitamin A deficiency and people keep their chameleons the same way would that not mean that there chameleons shouldn't have vitamin A issues either?

You said..."If I die, and reincarnate as a pet chameleon, can I be yours"...Hmmm...I only give them bread and water and let them watch TV if they behave properly. (evil grin)
 
This is a great thread thanks to everyone posting in this topic this is very interesting.

My OP

I have kept chameleons since i was 12 and i am now 28.
As i have progessed in the hobby,ive had my fair share of deaths caused be me,and produced quite a few healthy offspring too.
During keeping pardalis,a common problem i ran into was females dieing,and babies being weak with eyes closed and then dieing off within a few days,a very horrible,and depressing experiance:(

I like to think that i "get" nature,and i always gutloaded with a good range of fresh veg and fruit,knowing that the nutrition would be passed on to the chameleons.I spent hours reading books and reseaching nutrition like everyone else does,but i was still having problems with babys hatching and dieing quickly and losing females.
I belive that REAL vitamin A is required more by females,and in particular gravid females,i belive more vitamin A is passed on to the babies in the egg having a positive effect on the outcome of the babies.....since supplementing my females directly with vitamin A i have had amazing results.......And no dark,stressful and depressing results.....the information jim gave me was GOLD!! and really has increased the quality of the hobby.
I know there are so many other factors,but i feel i was providing everything but retinol.
IMHO Real Experiance is worth so much more then a black and white test .....Sometimes what your looking for is not in books.....its in people and should be valued!!!

You just have to look at what jim does to know that jim is probably the BIGGEST Pardalis junkie of them all!!!! i would,do,and will pass on what i have been told,and trust,belive and agree 100%

People that dont use vit A,what exactly do you gutload with and how frequently?

How come all the other breeders dont post on these subjects,and only jim does??:rolleyes::confused:

Peace to all,again very interesting:)
 
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Treelionsuk what lighting are you using?
What supplements do you use?
What do you use for gutload?
What kind of feeders do you use?
 
Todnedo said:
Treelionsuk what lighting are you using?
What supplements do you use?
What do you use for gutload?
Click to expand...

Zoomed 5.0

Reptivite(very rarely)calcuim carbonate,zol cal-d

Adcham dry gutload recipe(that has been removed from ad cham i see:eek:)

Grape leaves,dandilions,spring greens,red and yellow peppers,squash,sweet pot's,bee pollen and carrots

I use dubia's and Blaberus discoidalis,locusts,crickets,supers,silkies when i can get them,waxworms,houseflies,butterflies and im now breeding katydids
 
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