Gut loading frenzy

[PetNcs]

If vegetation is not digestible and you say we should not use it then why would we give grass instead. Is this not the same plant matter that is not digestible?

I am trying to understand...

Grass on contrary to the listed gutload IS NATURAL
So, for millions of years, chameleons are jsed to feed on grasshoppers that jave eaten grass and are used to badle it. Whole none of the liszed veggies, even containing potent poisons rjey were used to digest/non-diggest/tollerate/pass through the intestine amd defecate and this is why rjey are (potentially) Harmful

 

[PetNcs]

Never mind your missing my point... Thank you for the conversation.

Give me chance to understand please
What is your point?

 

[Beman]

Grass on contrary to the listed gutload IS NATURAL
So, for millions of years, chameleons are jsed to feed on grasshoppers that jave eaten grass and are used to badle it. Whole none of the liszed veggies, even containing potent poisons rjey were used to digest/non-diggest/tollerate/pass through the intestine amd defecate and this is why rjey are (potentially) Harmful

So it is the fact that it is potentially harmful... With a quick search I found grasses that are considered harmful as well to certain animals. And I am not trying to be confrontational. Just pointing out that this is yet another area where there are unknowns.

Poisonous Varieties

Most ornamental grasses pose no danger to humans but can be toxic to certain kinds of animals. Arrowgrass is particularly toxic to sheep and cattle, though it also poses a danger to other animals, including dogs and cats. Arrowgrass causes distress, rapid breathing, salivation, muscular twitching, convulsions, coma and death. Grass palm isn't toxic to humans but can be harmful when ingested by cats or dogs. It causes vomiting, anorexia, too much salivation, depression and dilated pupils in cats. Switchgrass is toxic to horses and can cause red blood cell damage and liver disease, which can eventually lead to death. Tall fescue can be harmful to grazing cattle and horses because the grass can become tough and infected with endophytes, causing poor grazing. Switchgrass and tall fescue are less likely to be poisonous to dogs, cats or humans than to horses or cattle, but eating either of them might cause stomach upset.

 

[PetNcs]

Ok so I feed my feeders a variety of veg and a fruit with bee pollen. Is that better?

And I am reading everything repeatedly.

This is just the first of the reo main recommemdations
Rhe one about gutloading is missing

 

[Mac_hameleon]

Are there certain varieties of "grasses" that are recommended over others?

 

[PetNcs]

So it is the fact that it is potentially harmful... With a quick search I found grasses that are considered harmful as well to certain animals. And I am not trying to be confrontational. Just pointing out that this is yet another area where there are unknowns.

Poisonous Varieties

Most ornamental grasses pose no danger to humans but can be toxic to certain kinds of animals. Arrowgrass is particularly toxic to sheep and cattle, though it also poses a danger to other animals, including dogs and cats. Arrowgrass causes distress, rapid breathing, salivation, muscular twitching, convulsions, coma and death. Grass palm isn't toxic to humans but can be harmful when ingested by cats or dogs. It causes vomiting, anorexia, too much salivation, depression and dilated pupils in cats. Switchgrass is toxic to horses and can cause red blood cell damage and liver disease, which can eventually lead to death. Tall fescue can be harmful to grazing cattle and horses because the grass can become tough and infected with endophytes, causing poor grazing. Switchgrass and tall fescue are less likely to be poisonous to dogs, cats or humans than to horses or cattle, but eating either of them might cause stomach upset.


Juncaginaceae Contains about 34 species hypical for
Marsands amd none of them occur in Africa,
Because if its circumboreal distribution.
It is very roigh amd jaedly anyone would get an idea to get to seamps and feed it to chameleon feedesrs :-(
But this is not what was the debate about

Juncaginaceae Contains about 34 species hypical for
Marsands amd none of them occur in Africa,
Because if its circumboreal distribution.
It is very roigh amd jaedly anyone would get an idea to get to seamps and feed it to chameleon feedesrs :-(
But this is not what was the debate about

 

[PetNcs]

Are there certain varieties of "grasses" that are recommended over others?

yes the ones eaten by cagtle are Ok
Plus all species of corn are technically grasses too

 

[CasqueAbove]

If I may @Beman
I think your point is that according to Peter feeding things like say peaches are unknown so we should not feed.
Your thought is "Well grass than is a lot of things, and we don't know, so why is it OK ?

Ultimately I think it is a gray area. We don't actually know about any of it. But things like grass and green are more likely to match what they would eat. So we call it a "Best Choice" though we don't have data and facts on either.

The "bad" part I guess would be if you fed exclusively peaches full of thing unknown to cham digestion.

 

[Beman]

Give me chance to understand please
What is your point?

My point was that since we know so little about the digestion ability or even the lack of ability to digest plant matter how do we know that because we feed an insect a combo of veg and fruit that it is not digestible by the chameleon?

I suppose where I overthink things is that I see benefits and possible harmful outcomes with many things we can do and provide in this hobby. From too much to too little. Since we are learning so much about where the middle is. I guess my line of thought flows to the fact that it requires testing to see outcomes and responses.

Now this is not my area of expertise at all this is your area. This is what you have specialized in for many many years. But in the scientific world is it not a hypothesis that is therefor put into action to see the actual results?

 

[CasqueAbove]

So its ok to feed everything that is on the gutload sheets, as long as its not fed to the bugs the day before feeding? Only feed them grass and bee pollen the day before feeding off?

Yes i understand the concepts of "gutload" vs "food". But chameleonforums "gutload" sheets/sections are not really "gutloads", they are "food" and should not be fed before feeding the bugs to chameleons?

It is a matter of semantics. @PetNcs does not like the term "gutload" because it makes people think that feeding a bunch of stuff right before feeding is enough. It is not

 

[Beman]

Juncaginaceae Contains about 34 species hypical for
Marsands amd none of them occur in Africa,
Because if its circumboreal distribution.
It is very roigh amd jaedly anyone would get an idea to get to seamps and feed it to chameleon feedesrs :-(
But this is not what was the debate about

Correct not what we were originally talking about but I am an over thinker and it expanded to grasses when you mentioned it.

 

[PetNcs]

I suppose where I overthink things is that I see benefits and possible harmful outcomes with many things we can do and provide in this hobby. From too much to too little. Since we are learning so much about where the middle is. I guess my line of thought flows to the fact that it requires testing to see outcomes and responses.

Now this is not my area of expertise at all this is your area. This is what you have specialized in for many many years. But in the scientific world is it not a hypothesis that is therefor put into action to see the actual results?

 

[nightanole]

So is the issue that we are calling it gutloading??? I am so confused. That is the term that all other forums I have been in use.

Mostly. Back when the earth was cooling, a "gut load" was a meal of indigestible stuff ans calcium. It made it impossible for the feeder to poop out, and had so much calcium in it that it would eventually kill the feeder.

However the language has morphed into gutload=diet well over a decade ago. I havent even seen a true gutload since the 1990's and all these modern gutloads are just diets.

 

[Beman]

Mostly. Back when the earth was cooling, a "gut load" was a meal of indigestible stuff ans calcium. It made it impossible for the feeder to poop out, and had so much calcium in it that it would eventually kill the feeder.

However the language has morphed into gutload=diet well over a decade ago. I havent even seen a true gutload since the 1990's and all these modern gutloads are just diets.

Thank you that makes understanding the terminology issue much easier for me. You know I have only been here 2 years. So the term gutload I have always applied as simply the diet I feed insects.

 

[PetNcs]

My point was that since we know so little about the digestion ability or even the lack of ability to digest plant matter how do we know that because we feed an insect a combo of veg and fruit that it is not digestible by the chameleon?

I suppose where I overthink things is that I see benefits and possible harmful outcomes with many things we can do and provide in this hobby. From too much to too little. Since we are learning so much about where the middle is. I guess my line of thought flows to the fact that it requires testing to see outcomes and responses.

Now this is not my area of expertise at all this is your area. This is what you have specialized in for many many years. But in the scientific world is it not a hypothesis that is therefor put into action to see the actual results?

We know that they can not digest plant
Matter.
We have douens of doeect amd undirect
proofs.

I am abainst testing of things that do not make sense from the a
Natural point of view.
I am militantly against doing tests how alľes are good for chameleon digestion. It is unethical and wrong allroach. And in Ejrope,
It is against the law.

Well and if you call for science. k assure you we wiľ stay in same vscuum even after further 59years.
Because noone will invest i to resesrch so i important like
How a commerciaĺy unsignificant dtrange reptile That is insect eating soecialist can or can. Or digest plant matter

Itnis an absurd tooic that no university would dare to pit money and effor to to. We need to figjt covid and find oit how to feed 10nillioms prople on this planet in 19
Yesrs and hlw to make otjer engine and ewsice co2 emission and nit sich finny unimoortsnt issue... ironic snd pssiˇistic? Not. Reallistic

Tjis is why we need to use mire a logic and evidemce we jave than bid on wxperimwnts that will neber hallen.

 

[Beman]

We know that they can not digest plant
Matter.
We have douens of doeect amd undirect
proofs.

I am abainst testing of things that do not make sense from the a
Natural point of view.
I am militantly against doing tests how alľes are good for chameleon digestion. It is unethical and wrong allroach. And in Ejrope,
It is against the law.

Well and if you call for science. k assure you we wiľ stay in same vscuum even after further 59years.
Because noone will invest i to resesrch so i important like
How a commerciaĺy unsignificant dtrange reptile That is insect eating soecialist can or can. Or digest plant matter

Itnis an absurd tooic that no university would dare to pit money and effor to to. We need to figjt covid and find oit how to feed 10nillioms prople on this planet in 19
Yesrs and hlw to make otjer engine and ewsice co2 emission and nit sich finny unimoortsnt issue... ironic snd pssiˇistic? Not. Reallistic

Tjis is why we need to use mire a logic and evidemce we jave than bid on wxperimwnts that will neber hallen.

Petr I am simply and over thinker when it comes to basically every single aspect of husbandry I provide. For me I like looking at all the details. It is the way I have always been. My overthinking has been an interesting thing in this hobby because I love to know the pieces and how it all fits together.

I suppose my mind has a hard time differentiating it all when I see my chameleon happily eat his hibiscus flowers. And I look at him and know that he is not supposed to be able to digest them. But he still does it and I wonder why. I have examined the fecal after and I do not find the flowers. So this makes me think even more and wonder even more the why of them doing it.

So as I said I just overthink everything. No hard feelings nothing against you at all. I have actually enjoyed this conversation today.

 

[jamest0o0]

Petr I am simply and over thinker when it comes to basically every single aspect of husbandry I provide. For me I like looking at all the details. It is the way I have always been. My overthinking has been an interesting thing in this hobby because I love to know the pieces and how it all fits together.

I suppose my mind has a hard time differentiating it all when I see my chameleon happily eat his hibiscus flowers. And I look at him and know that he is not supposed to be able to digest them. But he still does it and I wonder why. I have examined the fecal after and I do not find the flowers. So this makes me think even more and wonder even more the why of them doing it.

So as I said I just overthink everything. No hard feelings nothing against you at all. I have actually enjoyed this conversation today.

One could say petr is an over thinker as well. Maybe you two are meant for each other

 

[DocZ]

I’m honestly not seeing the controversy with this, or how this would change most of your practices.

It is pretty clear that we can augment the nutritional content of feeders by offering diets rich in certain vitamins and minerals. (Look at research by Finke and others). The “gutloading” chart lists several greens and veggies that are packed with vitamins and minerals and have favorable calcium to phosphorus ratios (there’s a nice chart in Mader’s Reptile medicine and surgery with some of this information). As long as our insects can digest this stuff, their nutritional value is improving and this can be passed to the chameleon

it seems there are some things on that chart that could be potentially harmful that @PetNcs takes issue with. If these things (almonds, etc) have potential for harm, they should be omitted entirely from the process

Gutloading (feeding Insects directly prior to feeding them to the chameleon) should Include things that chameleon can absorb and benefit from if we intend to use their gut as a vector for our chameleons nutrition, and he gives suggestions on what you can usefor this process. Correct me if I’m wrong, but he also concedes that dusting feeders may make “gutloading” unnecessary

so if you feed Your insects high quality foods that increase their nutritional content you have satisfied part one of his suggestions
If you would like to enhance their available nutrition, just prior to feeding your feeders gutload them with bee pollen, calcium, and /or multivitamin, or just dust them. As @nightanole noted earlier, calcium can kill the insects Over time. I think it causes constipation (don’t quote me on that), so do this only as a gutloading addition

unless your only feed your bugs once just before you feed your Cham, you’re really not changing anything. Just feed them and dust them

 

[PetNcs]

Petr I am simply and over thinker when it comes to basically every single aspect of husbandry I provide. For me I like looking at all the details. It is the way I have always been. My overthinking has been an interesting thing in this hobby because I love to know the pieces and how it all fits together.

I suppose my mind has a hard time differentiating it all when I see my chameleon happily eat his hibiscus flowers. And I look at him and know that he is not supposed to be able to digest them. But he still does it and I wonder why. I have examined the fecal after and I do not find the flowers. So this makes me think even more and wonder even more the why of them doing it.

So as I said I just overthink everything. No hard feelings nothing against you at all. I have actually enjoyed this conversation today.

Rhe reason why you do not find it is because itnis so delicate that is autolyzes within the week or so whicb it stays in the intestine, which has many quite aggressive substances in it.
Make a simple experiment
Put it for a Week just into water with some vinegar. It will also disappear. But it by dar does not
Mean it was digested by the bowl...

I have shown several time a poop made of naturally digested leaves. They come out as rhey are undigested just a bit fermented as is to be expected.

I do not want to offend you by any means but your way of thinking is great it just lacks general biological Knowledge and rherefore some things do not make sense fir yiu. They can not, as yiu miss big pieces of knowledge thag is a base of bilohical sciences studies for many years.
And aometimes, yiu (and others) can not understand me, as I can not explain everything to the basics...

I am thinking on how to close rhat gap whichnis so often found in engaged and enthusiastic chameleon lovers. But itnis hard... we xan not skip rhe basics and foundations of the science

I habe prepared a quiz where yiu can test the level
Of yiur knowledge and critical thinking, I will make it aVailable if you want.

And leople want tk discuss details of digestion and do not actually know, what digestion in fact is, what chemical lrocessess happen, how It is regulated , how the particles are transported and where, what is oresiyalyixs and absorption and lhlorus and iileum... eyc etc...
they would very probably not even able to name such simple thing mike what are the parts of the intestinalTract...

Again,
No offense, but thisnis reality IMHO

 

[Beman]

Rhe reason why you do jot find it is because itnis so delicate that is autoluses within the week or so whicbbit stays in the intestine, which has many quite aggressive substances in it.
Make a simple experiment
Put it for. Week just into wayer with some vinegar. It will also disappear

I have shown several time a poop made of naturally digested leaves. They come out as rhey are undigested just a bit fermented as is to be expected.

I do normwant to offend you by any means but your way of thinking is great ir just lacks feneral niolohical
Knowledge and rherefore some things do not make sense fir yiu. Rhey can no, as yiu miss big pieces of knowledge thag is a base of bilohical sciences studies fir many years.
And aometimes, yiu (and others) can not understand me, as I can not explain everything to the basics...

I am thinking on how to close rhat gap whichnis so often found in engaged and enthusiastic chameleon lovers. But itnis hard... we xan not skip rhe basics and foundations of the science

And leople want tk dosxuss details of digeastikn and do not actually know, what digestion in dact is, what chemical
Lrodessess halpen, hownitnis reliayed, how the particles are translorted and where eyc etc...
they would berh lribably not even able to. Ame such simple tjing mike what are the parts of the intestinal
Tract...

Again,
No offense, but thisnis reality IMHO

I don't take offense. But I also think that the way I look at it is pretty common for how others will see it. I did not understand what you meant about my logic lacks feneral niolohical... and maybe I don't need to know lol.

It is funny because out of all the people that have jumped in on this thread. I am very modest in how I gutload and what I use compared to others. I keep mine very simple.

But again thank you for taking the time to have the conversation.