Gut loading frenzy

[MissSkittles]

I feel the need to question all authority...is gutloading even needed? If I am consistently feeding my bugs with healthy fresh greens, vegetables and a little fruit and add a bit of bee pollen to the supplement I’m dusting them in, is gutloading with anything truly adding significant nutritional value?

 

[PetNcs]

I just wonder about this because chameleons eat plants and like said above they aren’t constipated or have diarrhea. Also, along with feeding the bugs greens, fruits and vegetables. They are getting dusted with the vitamins and minerals that you are recommending. If the plants made the chameleon sick i don’t think they would continue to eat them. You’ve used the example sand, saying that giving the cham greens and plants are the same as giving them sand. But, chameleons eat plants on there own nobody is forcing them to eat them. I’ve also seen chameleons eat strawberries, flowers, etc. And again, nothing bad comes from that. My very experienced keepers offer fruits to their chameleons and they are healthy.

This. With all respect is a very sulerficial view and chameleons esting strasnerries is evil,
Asmit is nothing. Atural in any asoect.
Thise that do so do jerm and even do not care dokng so.

Wendy’s specialist that you adore so much show you these practices please ask them how long do their animals live and I guarantee you they will sit not in the top numbers off longevity but they will cut it by three or four times. Perfectky bealthy ani
Als
That die on signs of higj age at ¼ of tbeir possible
Life span.

 

[Beman]

It is interesting to me your thoughts on this...

I used to only use insect fuel by arcadia and bug burger by repashy. I would mix them together and add bee pollen. I started seeing that my chameleon was not shedding cleanly. Pieces of shed would remain for weeks. Even though everything husbandry wise was in place and correct including a variety of feeders being fed. So I started blending my own gutload all fresh veg and fruit with bee pollen. Since starting this a few months ago he now sheds without issue. I also have far less die off of my insects.

It would make sense to me that in the wild their insects are typically eating vegetation. So in a sense they are gutloading on plant matter as well.

I suppose my confusion is if "we know very little about chameleon digestion" then why would this automatically be ruled as bad?

I think what I am doing to be far better then giving feeders that have survived off only potatoes or carrots. Nutritionally they would be less then ideal.

 

[PetNcs]

I feel the need to question all authority...is gutloading even needed? If I am consistently feeding my bugs with healthy fresh greens, vegetables and a little fruit and add a bit of bee pollen to the supplement I’m dusting them in, is gutloading with anything truly adding significant nutritional value?

I am very deeply convinced that THIS IS THE CRUCIAL QUESTION
And that the responsible
Answer
Is
NO,
NOT witb the stuff which is recommended

If gutloaded at all,
Then with NATURAL GUTLOAD ONLY -
Which is Mainly pollen
Amd grass

And in
Exceptional
Cases

We xan gutload with vitamins
And minerals

Or

Witb MEDICAMENTS
If
Required

 

[PetNcs]

wait, so then what kind of vitamin/mineral powders would we gutload with.

Pollen and as an amternative to dusting exactly
The right vitamin and
Mineral
Mixtures as
Recommended in good (GOOD) care sheets

 

[PetNcs]

You said..."1. to add acids like citric acid, wine acid, apple acid contained in fruits especially in citrus fruits in bigh concentrations causes acidosis, a sever metabolic disorder than destroys homeostasis and can lead to many consequences including organ failure and death"...this is why I've always limited the fruit to very very little when feeding the insects.

You said..."2. To feed almonds, which might be rich in cyanide might be fatal. Lower vertebrates might be extremely sensitive to it and hyperreact as it damages CNS and heart or it might cause non-identifiable cumulative poisoning"...I've never used almonds because of the cyanide.

You said..."3. Spirulina, many people uncritically swear on, can be comtaminated with toxins, self produce heavy toxins like microcystine, know to be lethal while damaging the liver or Not only boosting the imune system but also can cause strengthening of autoimune reactions or preventing blood clotting or is known to cause allergic reactions"...this I've never used either.

Nice to know that my reasoning isn't too bad!

And THIS IS RESPONSIBLE

while feedjng those things or
Even dare to recommend
Or
Even dare to
Make business with such mixtures

Is unethical
And irresponsible

We are
On the same
Page, Kinyonga,
it is
My privilege

 

[MissSkittles]

I am very deeply convinced that THIS IS THE CRUCIAL QUESTION
And that the responsible
Answer
Is
NO,
NOT witb the stuff which is recommended

If gutloaded at all,
Then with NATURAL GUTLOAD ONLY -
Which is Mainly pollen
Amd grass

And in
Exceptional
Cases

We xan gutload with vitamins
And minerals

Or

Witb MEDICAMENTS
If
Required

So in order to guide new keepers we should be advising for them to feed their feeders with foods from the current gutload sheet and either feed them bee pollen and grass right before giving to their chameleon and/or dust the feeder bugs in pollen.
I am guilty of using the gutload sheet very often in order to simplify that the orange cubes new keepers are using are basically trash.

 

[nightanole]

Now we are getting into

Is it a gut load

Or is it bug food


It seems we need "bug food" but we should not be adding unnatural things to make it better, such as orange juice or ground up almonds etc.

We are not to feed the bug "just" bee pollen.

 

[PetNcs]

I suppose my confusion is if "we know very little about chameleon digestion" then why would this automatically be ruled as bad?

Well itnis about ethics
Ther is an overruling rule for me applicable
In law and in ethics:

IN DUBIO, ABSTINE
(if in doubt, Abstain)

It’s practically means in our context, that

unless it is unequivocally proven to be safe,
you need to treat it as unsafe
and
not to use it
not to experiment with it,
Never produce it
never sell it and
never recommended It

 

[PetNcs]

It is interesting to me your thoughts on this...

I used to only use insect fuel by arcadia and bug burger by repashy. I would mix them together and add bee pollen. I started seeing that my chameleon was not shedding cleanly. Pieces of shed would remain for weeks. Even though everything husbandry wise was in place and correct including a variety of feeders being fed. So I started blending my own gutload all fresh veg and fruit with bee pollen. Since starting this a few months ago he now sheds without issue. I also have far less die off of my insects.

It would make sense to me that in the wild their insects are typically eating vegetation. So in a sense they are gutloading on plant matter as well.

I suppose my confusion is if "we know very little about chameleon digestion" then why would this automatically be ruled as bad?

I think what I am doing to be far better then giving feeders that have survived off only potatoes or carrots. Nutritionally they would be less then ideal.

Please yoj again mix up
Feeding feeders with gutloading
Can you olease
Separate these two
Processes in your
Mind? Then, it will start making sense I
Assure yiu
No
Offense
Please

Ut if we
Permanently mix uo these teo
Processeses, we never ever can come
To
A
Good
Conclusion

 

[CasqueAbove]

I find it kind of funny that there would be any true contention on this. Simply following nature we get there.
Look at your bugs as pets. What would you feed them to have long healthy lives(for insects). You would feed their natural food. Plant matter mostly (greens) , probably some fruits as they would fall to the ground, and some proteins( bugs would likely find some carrion). On the greens and in the soil would be , likely pollen and some minerals in the soil.

So once we are here, what would be the point of gut loading? It is just their diet.

I feed primarily greens and bee pollen. very little fruit.

 

[Beman]

Well itnis about ethics
Ther is an overruling rule for me applicable
In law and in ethics:

IN DUBIO, ABSTINE
(if in doubt, Abstain)

It’s practically means in our context, that

unless it is unequivocally proven to be safe,
you need to treat it as unsafe
and
not to use it
not to experiment with it,
Never produce it
never sell it and
never recommended It

Ok and I see your reasoning there... But I find that there are a lot of things that come out as a to do item that has been tried therefor deemed effective..

Even with fogging... It has been mass advice to do this now. But now recently you state you can overfog as well causing overhydration. This for me turned out to be a negative and "unsafe" thing to provide in the environment I live in and ambient humidity already sustained.

Is it not through this trial of putting a concept into use that we find the entire picture of how something works and the effects both negative as well as positive?

 

[PetNcs]

Now we are getting into

Is it a gut load

Or is it bug food


It seems we need "bug food" but we should not be adding unnatural things to make it better, such as orange juice or ground up almonds etc.

We are not to feed the bug "just" bee pollen.

OMG

I repeat
This abain amd
Again
Please olease
Olease
Can
You read
Whag I write with attention

This exactly I try to explain again and
Again

BUG FOOD
It’s something that we feed to the box so that its body becomes more nutritious

GUTLOADING IS
DIFFERENT,
It is to leave something and digested in the intestine off the bag that we want to be eaten by the chameleon

Is
Please
This clear
Finally?

Two separate lrocesses

I do not say to
Feed only pollen to bugs I say that pollen is one of the very few natural gut loading substances

 

[PetNcs]

So in order to guide new keepers we should be advising for them to feed their feeders with foods from the current gutload sheet and either feed them bee pollen and grass right before giving to their chameleon and/or dust the feeder bugs in pollen.
I am guilty of using the gutload sheet very often in order to simplify that the orange cubes new keepers are using are basically trash.

YES!
I
Am
Comvinced THIS is the meaningful conclusion from
This
Debate

If THIS would be our consensus and agreement a kut the insteucting the newbies

I
Would
Be
HAPPY

 

[MissSkittles]

YES!
I
Am
Comvinced THIS is the meaningful conclusion from
This
Debate

If THIS would be our consensus and agreement a kut the insteucting the newbies

I
Would
Be
HAPPY

Ok, I will work on changing when I offer advice, but do understand when I still use the gutloading sheet as a guide to FEEDING the feeders. Perhaps someone with better graphics skills than I can create a feeder insect feeding graphic we can use.

 

[Beman]

Ok, I will work on changing when I offer advice, but do understand when I still use the gutloading sheet as a guide to FEEDING the feeders. Perhaps someone with better graphics skills than I can create a feeder insect feeding graphic we can use.

It is a graphic we can use....

 

[nightanole]

Now im completely confused.



The entire first post was "do not feed the bugs apples, papaya, orange, lettuce, collard greens and spirulina and rosted almonds, granola and dried blackberries etc. etc. "

This is almost word from word from the "gut load" section.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/

Then we get this from Misskittles:

in order to guide new keepers we should be advising for them to feed their feeders with foods from the current gutload sheet and either feed them bee pollen and grass right before giving to their chameleon and/or dust the feeder bugs in pollen.

And Pet agrees with this.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/images/ccr/care-images/chameleon-gutload.jpg








HEY PET, WHAT SHOULD OUR BUG FOOD CONSIST OF? Not the "gut load" the daily food.

 

[PetNcs]

Even with fogging... It has been mass advice to do this now. But now recently you state you can overfog as well causing overhydration. This for me turned out to be a negative and "unsafe" thing to provide in the environment I live in and ambient humidity already sustained.

Thw fogginh comcept is
Proben by me
For 25+ Years

Come
On, yiu complicate it

EVERYTHING has to be done lroperly
And
EVERYTHING yocan
Dose
Too
Little and too much

It is
On ious that eg in VITAMIN D3
Too FEW: Harmful, deadly
Appropriate: Beneficial
Too MUCH: Harmful, deadly

So
What is wrong with fogging?! ITNIS SAME!!!

Too few fog: UNDERHYDRATION
Appropriate: Perfect hydration
Too much fog: overhydration and health lroblems

This applies
Also
If you do
noT do
It
Properly!

The instruction is very simple and I repeat it for thousand times I explained it to Bill Strand to put it properly into his podcast and I explain and explain and explain:
FOGGING
AT NIGHT ONLY
WHEN COLD UNDER 70F

So, can you please explain me what is so confusing on that?
If
You breathe pure oxyfen at high pressure you die
If you drink 30litres if water at omce you die
If you swallow 5 lbs of salr younwill die

Somwhat is comdusing on a method, that, if used wrongly is causing health problems?
Itmis
Absolutel normal

 

[CasqueAbove]

Now im completely confused.



The entire first post was "do not feed the bugs apples, papaya, orange, lettuce, collard greens and spirulina and rosted almonds, granola and dried blackberries etc. etc. "

This is almost word from word from the "gut load" section.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/

Then we get this from Misskittles:

in order to guide new keepers we should be advising for them to feed their feeders with foods from the current gutload sheet and either feed them bee pollen and grass right before giving to their chameleon and/or dust the feeder bugs in pollen.

And Pet agrees with this.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/images/ccr/care-images/chameleon-gutload.jpg








HEY PET, WHAT SHOULD OUR BUG FOOD CONSIST OF? Not the "gut load" the daily food.

It is the difference in concept he is referring to.

Bug Food: includes All those foods in proper balance.

Gut Load: Implies that it is something they just ate and have not digested. This is the part that is useless.

 

[PetNcs]

Ok, I will work on changing when I offer advice, but do understand when I still use the gutloading sheet as a guide to FEEDING the feeders. Perhaps someone with better graphics skills than I can create a feeder insect feeding graphic we can use.

It would be enougj to
Chamge the title
For now

HQ FEEDING OF FEEDERS
and nit gutloading