Gravid Veiled Chameleo NEED HELP

[Dez]

I have housed several females together (a group of veiled girls..and group of panther girls) in a large cage or a room with a free range.

I have not had problems in the larger cages or the freerange room. I have had problems when housing two females in a standard 2x2x4 cage . Even though they seemed to 'get along' in both cases one of the females got sick. The sickness (RI) cleared up once when was separated to her own enclosure. So I think stress being the main reason.

I would not house a male and female veiled together. A young female can be triggered to make eggs just seeing a male. If she is young and her body makes eggs too early then this could cause complications such as eggbinding.

Also a male will try to mate with a female even if she is not ready. He will be persistent and the female can fight back and cause injury. I have a male veiled now given to me by a friend that is missing most of his tail... my friend tried to breed them when the female was not ready and she bit his tail right off!

also as Jann said.. it is likley the female will not feel secure with the male around and not lay her eggs.. she needs a private secure spot

 

[Dez]

I am just curious. How many members responding to this post have experience housing veileds or for that matter any chameleon species together? I'm not saying that the op should keep them together but from my experience I am not convinced that it can never be done.

I'd be very interested to hear about experiences pro and con.

Also I have housed young male veileds together since they where hatchlings. But once they got to 5 months old they became extremely aggressive toward each other and needed to be separated.

I would not house male and females together over the age of 4 month old. I wouldnt want to trigger early breeding (or breeding of siblings since its often a single clutch kept together in the early months)

The only time males and females are together is for breeding purposes

 

[rshewfel]

Thanks for sharing Jann and Dez. I just got back into chameleons after taking the last ten years off. The last three months I have been working with deremensis, sternfeldi, and now lateralis. I can share my experiences with them but it is still new. For the most part, most of new chameleons have been housed separately.

My first go at chameleons started in 1994 and ended in 2004. During this time, i worked with around 25 different species. To be completely honest, a large majority of my chameleon keeping experience has been housing chameleons together. Ill give some of my experiences.

First what got me interested in experimenting with housing them together was a particular pet shop. I do not support what he did. I just found it interesting because of all the strict "you can not house them together" beliefs going on 20 years ago. Anyway, he housed 1.3 siblings together in a 20 gallon cage, in the middle of his pet shop. They grew up in this enclosure. He was trying to sell them, not breed them. All three females bred with the male and laid multiple clutches in a 10" by 10" by 5" deep laying bin, that was included in their 20 gallon enclosure.

For my personal experiences with housing chameleons together. As far as egg laying species go, I have housed veileds, verrucosus, deremensis, and quadricornis in various groups. At various times they all laid eggs while being in the same enclosure.

For instance-

Veileds- I housed 1.10 together in a free range 15' by 15' room. I usually removed the females when they were close to egg laying but several females laid in the presence of their cage mates.

Verrucosus - 1.3 lived in a 6' by 8' by 3' enclosure. In one years time I got around 150 eggs laid in that same enclosure.

As far as becoming egg bound. I can honestly say, other than a gravid wild caught female, I have never had a female die from not laying her eggs. I have always attributed the female becoming egg bound with improper husbandry, improper laying bin, or the owner disrupting the female.

This is becoming long. I will end this post here. I would love to discuss this some more. Just please keep this civilized.

 

[rshewfel]

I have not had problems in the larger cages or the freerange room. I have had problems when housing two females in a standard 2x2x4 cage . Even though they seemed to 'get along' in both cases one of the females got sick. The sickness (RI) cleared up once when was separated to her own enclosure. So I think stress being the main reason.

Ipersonally have not noticed more illnesses with females housed together but I do take this into consideration.

I would not house a male and female veiled together. A young female can be triggered to make eggs just seeing a male.

I have read this before. When I kept chameleons years ago, it was believed they would develope eggs no matter what. I am very interested in this subject and plan on experimenting with it. If you know of any articles on this I would love to read them. I would also very much like to read any experiences you or other members have with this topic.

Also a male will try to mate with a female even if she is not ready. He will be persistent and the female can fight back and cause injury. I have a male veiled now given to me by a friend that is missing most of his tail... my friend tried to breed them when the female was not ready and she bit his tail right off!

This can be true but in my experience not always. They will often try to court but get detoured very easily. If it is persistant I will separate them. Also I think aggression can be associated with isolation and established territory. Chameleons in a common territory are not as aggressive, in my experience. The veileds I raised together from 1-2 months old, showed absolutely no aggression towards each other. They lived together for close to 2 years before I moved.

Also , the only injury I have ever had was a feeding injury. My male grabbed a cricket off the foot off a female. He caught her foot insted. She lost her foot but had a very healthy life. I felt bad but it was an accident.

also as Jann said.. it is likley the female will not feel secure with the male around and not lay her eggs.. she needs a private secure spot

In my other post I gave plenty examples that suggest otherwise. Not saying this can't be true but I have not found this to be true.

 

[rshewfel]

I free range all my chameleons in my tiny house. The girls both veileds and panthers (up to four of them) always have a room to themselves with the door closed and each had their separated free range with lights. I've had males go down the hall and scratch at their door trying to get to the girls. All of my male panther boys got along ok and stayed in one big room in my house......the living room/dinning room/kitchen combo. Each had their own separate free range and lights. At one time I had four free ranges and four boys. They did roam and I had two that enjoyed spending time together. The other two kept to theirself. My veiled Luie had his own room and got upset when he saw the panther boys but loved the veiled and panther girls. Right now my veiled Sage canb tolerate my panther, Parsonii and gracefull but I do not allow them to see each other for long. The Graceful doesn't really like seeing the veiled. The Parsons shows no reaction and the Gracefull and Panther get along the best. The panther I have now was one of the ones that like to buddy with another panther. He lost his buddy last September and he gets along with everybody. I hope this helps.

Very cool! I have very little experience with inter-species interactions. A couple of times I have had a chameleon escape their cage and enter a free range set-up. This most recently happened with my male sternfeldi. I found him hanging out with my deremensis group. They did not even seem to notice each other.

I also have very little experience with multiple males together. From the little I have witnessed, the males did not seem to mind each other unless a female was present. Even then, one would just run away.

 

[Dez]

Ipersonally have not noticed more illnesses with females housed together but I do take this into consideration.



I have read this before. When I kept chameleons years ago, it was believed they would develope eggs no matter what. I am very interested in this subject and plan on experimenting with it. If you know of any articles on this I would love to read them. I would also very much like to read any experiences you or other members have with this topic.



This can be true but in my experience not always. They will often try to court but get detoured very easily. If it is persistant I will separate them. Also I think aggression can be associated with isolation and established territory. Chameleons in a common territory are not as aggressive, in my experience. The veileds I raised together from 1-2 months old, showed absolutely no aggression towards each other. They lived together for close to 2 years before I moved.

Also , the only injury I have ever had was a feeding injury. My male grabbed a cricket off the foot off a female. He caught her foot insted. She lost her foot but had a very healthy life. I felt bad but it was an accident.



In my other post I gave plenty examples that suggest otherwise. Not saying this can't be true but I have not found this to be true.

I have had two diffrent pairs of females develop RIs on two seprate occations being housed together in a standard size cage. I don't know if it would happen everytime..but twice was enough to convince me to stop doing it.

Females will make eggs without a male that is true. My vet is the one who told me that seeing a male can stimulate making of eggs earlier. You can take that at face value I suppose. I have noticed that females not exposed to males laying less frequently than females that have. But I did not do any documenting on the subject

Injurys over feeding like your females foot are not uncommon. I have seen chams bite eachothers eyes thinking the quick eye movment was a feeder. Just another reason not to house them together.

And it may be true that some females may lay eggs in the presents of another chameleon like you say. Honestly with all that can go wrong with a female with eggs, I don't know why you would risk the added stress of not giving her a private quiet place to lay.

 

[rshewfel]

I have had two diffrent pairs of females develop RIs on two seprate occations being housed together in a standard size cage. I don't know if it would happen everytime..but twice was enough to convince me to stop doing it.

Females will make eggs without a male that is true. My vet is the one who told me that seeing a male can stimulate making of eggs earlier. You can take that at face value I suppose. I have noticed that females not exposed to males laying less frequently than females that have. But I did not do any documenting on the subject

Injurys over feeding like your females foot are not uncommon. I have seen chams bite eachothers eyes thinking the quick eye movment was a feeder. Just another reason not to house them together.

And it may be true that some females may lay eggs in the presents of another chameleon like you say. Honestly with all that can go wrong with a female with eggs, I don't know why you would risk the added stress of not giving her a private quiet place to lay.

Thanks for the response. I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. I have read several posts from you and watched several of your videos. I respect your opinion. I am just trying to figure out exactly how I am going to go about it this time around.

However, the simple fact is, last time I kept chameleons, I housed several species together. During this time, I did not come to the same conclusions that this forum strongly favors. When I see so many members state, "chameleons can not be housed together" as a fact, I have to respectfully disagree.

It is true that it is probably safer to house chameleons separately. I only had one injury in 10 years out of over 100 chameleons, but I acknowledge that this might not be the norm. I might have been lucky. I will not, however, say that my chameleons housed individually, in smaller cages, were healthier or had a more fulfilling life. In fact I would probably argue the opposite. I do not believe that it is benificial to a chameleon to be kept in complete isolation.

Also, since I have never had a female die from not laying her eggs, I can only speculate as to why other member have had this problem. I did not say that it was better to leave the female with the male. It was stated as a fact that she would not lay if he was in view. I don't believe this to true and I gave several examples of experiences I have had that suggested she would lay her eggs. However, I personally would remove the male.

The one problem I have with this forum, is that there are to many teachers and not enough students. I personally wish everyone here had the aditude of wanting to learn from each other. Instead people bark orders and act like their personal experience with their one of two chameleons makes them an expert. My dog does not get along with other dogs. By this logic, no dog can be housed with another dog, ever. We all know this to be false. I want to learn about my chameleons, not assume I know everything, when we all know there is so much more to learn.

 

[rshewfel]

A couple more comments I just thought of Dez.

The male you mentioned that was injured. I would be willing to bet he and the female were raised in isolation. In my experience, chameleons raised in isolation are a lot more aggressive. None of my chameleons have ever been injured during mating. Perhaps most injuries during mating could be avoided if they were not isolated.

Also, it is not likely, but possible, that the female would become more stressed by removing the male during egg laying. If she is used to his presence, removing him could make her environment less familiar.

Just some thoughts

 

[ChamLady]

A couple more comments I just thought of Dez.

The male you mentioned that was injured. I would be willing to bet he and the female were raised in isolation. In my experience, chameleons raised in isolation are a lot more aggressive. None of my chameleons have ever been injured during mating. Perhaps most injuries during mating could be avoided if they were not isolated.

Also, it is not likely, but possible, that the female would become more stressed by removing the male during egg laying. If she is used to his presence, removing him could make her environment less familiar.

Just some thoughts

Just an observation from one without a lot of experience with chameleons. I think most of the people on this forum are trying to duplicate, in a microcosm, what they perceive a wild chameleon's experience to be. In other words, in the wild, it wouldn't be the norm to find a tree full of most species. So, more normally, wouldn't it be natural for a veiled chameleon to be territorial? And for a female to want to retreat to a quiet, private place for egg laying?

When you put a group together, and they seemingly do well, isn't that their survival instincts kicking in to make the best of whatever is thrown at them? I'm not sure how you realistically judge those circumstances.

I'm here to learn.

 

[jannb]

I have had two diffrent pairs of females develop RIs on two seprate occations being housed together in a standard size cage. I don't know if it would happen everytime..but twice was enough to convince me to stop doing it.

Females will make eggs without a male that is true. My vet is the one who told me that seeing a male can stimulate making of eggs earlier. You can take that at face value I suppose. I have noticed that females not exposed to males laying less frequently than females that have. But I did not do any documenting on the subject

Injurys over feeding like your females foot are not uncommon. I have seen chams bite eachothers eyes thinking the quick eye movment was a feeder. Just another reason not to house them together.

And it may be true that some females may lay eggs in the presents of another chameleon like you say. Honestly with all that can go wrong with a female with eggs, I don't know why you would risk the added stress of not giving her a private quiet place to lay.

I totally agree with Dez and I hope that this thread will not influence the OP to continue housing his male and female together. I'm very hands-on with my chameleons and interact with them daily. I get to know them all and their personalities very well. I've had 2 female chameleons that could not lay their eggs and my Cuban Knight Anole. My Cuban Knight survived the surgery to remove her egg and ovaries but my female Parsons passed away just two weeks after the surgery due to complications. I also lost my precious female veiled at only 19 months old to Coelomitis, due to egg laying and I try my best to do everything I possibly can for my guys. As I said about, my male veileds above, they really like to be to theirself and my panther boys all tolerated each other but I've only had one that really liked everyone and that's my Nosy Be Hendershot. At first I tried to keep him and Jr apart but they kept going to the same free range so eventually I started just watching them and after months of just watching them I finally started trusting them together and they became best buds.


Hendershot and Jr

 

[rshewfel]

Just an observation from one without a lot of experience with chameleons. I think most of the people on this forum are trying to duplicate, in a microcosm, what they perceive a wild chameleon's experience to be. In other words, in the wild, it wouldn't be the norm to find a tree full of most species. So, more normally, wouldn't it be natural for a veiled chameleon to be territorial? And for a female to want to retreat to a quiet, private place for egg laying?

When you put a group together, and they seemingly do well, isn't that their survival instincts kicking in to make the best of whatever is thrown at them? I'm not sure how you realistically judge those circumstances.

I'm here to learn.

Have you ever read a detailed study about chameleons in the wild? I personally have been able to find very little.

I do believe that people are trying to recreate an environment that they think exists in the wild. I don't believe that this is actually what they are doing, however. If you free range a chameleon, they will not stay in one tree. They will explore every inch you give them. I think their territory is large than most people think. It probably includes several trees with several chameleons.

I think the way we house chameleons, is based upon observing chameleons in captivity. The chameleons were imported, placed in a glass aquarium, and given a water bowl. Of course, they died. People decided they were delicate creatures and proceeded to baby them. People just wanted to keep them alive; they were afraid to experiment. They eventually got eggs and hatched them. Raised the babies separately because they were so delicate. Introduced them later and the male attacked the female. Rumor spread.

Of course this is just speculation but could easily be the case.

From what I have observed. Wild caught chameleons are not that aggressive towards each other. Even if they appear as if they are going to be, it is usually just a display. One gets pissed, the other one receives the message and runs off.

 

[Decadancin]

...it is usually just a display. One gets pissed, the other one receives the message and runs off.

(The part that wasn't written is that by showing a display of territorial ownership, and subsequent retreat, this is the exact stress that we are trying to avoid for both animals. It may be natural for lizards to do this, but why put them through the constant stress and ordeal. One animal is always going to feel threatened, and one is always going to be on high alert to defend. If they are housed together, the other one may not be able to run off, or will have to continually run off. I guess if your enclosure was the size of a small jungle I would have little problem housing them together, but the fact is that they are generally not "social" animals and will generally do better on their own. This, as every other "rule" may have its exceptions, but I am not going to risk it.)

 

[rshewfel]

I totally agree with Dez and I hope that this thread will not influence the OP to continue housing his male and female together.*

Very cool pictures! You always take the best pictures.

I understand you hesitation and respect your input. My only hope of this tread is that it will open up people's mind a bit.

It is also very common to find a male and a female sitting next to each other in a free range. My injured female that I mention earlier had the run of the house. Her name was sunshine. My male Chico and her would often hang out on a plant in my living room, gazing out the window.

 

[jannb]

Last year I had the opportunity to visit Madagascar and observe chameleons in the wild. We saw allot of panthers and of all the ones we observed only two were anywhere near each other. It was one very large tree and one male was at the bottom of the tree around the trunk and the other was up high on the other side. You can see pictures of them in the first and second picture here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/madagascar-nosy-chameleons-97925/

 

[Dez]

A couple more comments I just thought of Dez.

The male you mentioned that was injured. I would be willing to bet he and the female were raised in isolation. In my experience, chameleons raised in isolation are a lot more aggressive. None of my chameleons have ever been injured during mating. Perhaps most injuries during mating could be avoided if they were not isolated.

Also, it is not likely, but possible, that the female would become more stressed by removing the male during egg laying. If she is used to his presence, removing him could make her environment less familiar.

Just some thoughts

On the male I mentioned. My friend had two baby veiled girls he had hatched and raised them together in a 4 foot cage. When they where 3 of 4 months old he got a young unrelated male and raised him in a 4 ft cage next to the females. Although they where physically separated as they where growing up he did not have any visual barriers so could clearly see the females in the other cage next to him. When my friend decided to get out of chameleons the male's tail had been bitten off in the breeding attempt... one of the females had died (unknown cause) and the other female also was missing a good portion of her tail.


The Dog statement is not a good comparison since what we know of animal behavior, dogs are pack animals and have a social structure. Even roosters that fight with each other its because chickens are known flock animals and will fight with eachother UNTIL a pecking order is established.

Chameleons do not have this flock,pack,herd mentality.


I always tell people that each chameleon has its own personality. One may like to be held while another may not. Some may handle the presents of his brother with no problem while others will not.. They may not fight or maybe one spends its time submissive and dark colored. As a keeper you get to know how your chameleon is and what he tolerates and what he does not. Like Jann's Louie. Very sweet male veiled. Did not mind other chameleons as long as they where females. but would get upset at the sight of any other male.

This issue I have is housing males and females together. Especially is the female is displaying gravid coloration. I truly believe that the process of laying eggs shortens a females life span compared to a males life span. A Male can live 6 years or more while its not uncommon for girls to live just 3 or 4 years. I believe eggs are the reason

I have a female veiled never exposed to a male, I do not plan on breeding her. she lays eggs maybe every 8 months or less.. the clutches are infertile and the eggs are small and soft. She passes them with no trouble.

Other females I have and are my breeders and are exposed to males lay eggs about every 2 to 3 months. the eggs are larger when laid and firmer and may be harder to lay and I believe are harder on her body


The whole point of the post was to help the OP and it has gotten a little off topic. I believe housing males and females together 24/7 is not a responsible way of keeping or breeding

 

[rshewfel]

(The part that wasn't written is that by showing a display of territorial ownership, and subsequent retreat, this is the exact stress that we are trying to avoid for both animals. It may be natural for lizards to do this, but why put them through the constant stress and ordeal. One animal is always going to feel threatened, and one is always going to be on high alert to defend. If they are housed together, the other one may not be able to run off, or will have to continually run off. I guess if your enclosure was the size of a small jungle I would have little problem housing them together, but the fact is that they are generally not "social" animals and will generally do better on their own. This, as every other "rule" may have its exceptions, but I am not going to risk it.)

Whoever said it was constant. If you never tried it, how would you know? Plus my example was about an occasional interaction between males. Maybe i was not clear on that. I already mention I have very little experience with housing males together. Looks like Jann has more experience with this.

Female- Female interaction, and female- male interaction are usually pretty similar. If the female is annoyed by another cage mate, she will gape her mouth and the message will be received. The intruding individual will usually not come closer.

 

[Dez]

I would also like to ad, I know there is always more than one way to do something. So people can do what works for them and their pets.

However I will never recommend that someone house males and female together throughout their lives. This is based on my experiences more that things I have read or have been told.

Even when I set up a very large harem cage with one male and two females.. they eventually had to be separated once the females became gravid because they became aggressive

the female is annoyed by another cage mate, she will gape her mouth and the message will be received. The intruding individual will usually not come closer.

Not always the case with horny boys.... My boys will attempt to mate with a female even if she is sending out the clear F-Off signals.

 

[fluxlizard]

I've kept pairs and small groups of several species together years ago.

They seemed to get along fine, but breeding activity was much much less frequent. My interest was in reproduction so I gave up on the idea. I think to keep the peace, social/sexual displays were stifled a good bit.

From what I have observed. Wild caught chameleons are not that aggressive towards each other. Even if they appear as if they are going to be, it is usually just a display. One gets pissed, the other one receives the message and runs off.

Well, now this is where you have to be careful with lizards and especially chameleons. Firstly because in any cage- there is no opportunity to "run off" after getting the message. Also more subtly- just because there is no outright dangerous aggression, does not mean that social things are not going on that cause a lot of stress and this low level social stress can cause a decline in the less dominant animal.

I'll give you an example from another lizard simply because it is easier to see. Bearded dragons. After reading that a famous breeder kept his in groups of 2 males and 4 females I tried the same setup with many groups. After a few minutes to a couple of hours the males work out who is dominant and get along fine for all the outside world to see. But that isn't what really happens- carefully keeping track of weight, I found that the less dominant male animal steadily and slowly looses weight over several months.

Another example same lizard- in groups of baby bearded dragons raised together, using "normal" feeding protocal you end up with some animals that grow rapidly and other animals that lag behind. The dominant and the least dominant. With most animals somewhere in between. If they are kept together the dominant animals will eventually outgrow the least dominant so much that they will be dwarfed (and possibly eaten if you are an idiot who never seperates the subdominant or dominant from the group) IF the subdominant even survives- most of the time stress will kill them if things are left unchecked. But if you seperate out the dominant every week, by the next week you will have "new" dominant animals in the group outgrowing the rest.

Low level social stress...
The dominant animals most often won't even outwardly bully the least dominant. But the least dominant will feel intimidated and allow the dominant first go at the food, the hot spot, etc.

It happens in chameleons too- anyone who has raised a group of babies knows this. Most of the time they incorrectly attribute the range of growth rate to the nature of babies having a varied growth rate. It isn't that. It is social stress. Remove the fast growers and new previously "average" growth rate chams will suddenly sprout from the group into rapid growers as their social status goes from average group member to dominant group member.

So there is a lot socially that goes on that you may not be able to observe without experimentation and careful measurement of possible effects.

I think the way we house chameleons, is based upon observing chameleons in captivity. The chameleons were imported, placed in a glass aquarium, and given a water bowl. Of course, they died. People decided they were delicate creatures and proceeded to baby them. People just wanted to keep them alive; they were afraid to experiment. They eventually got eggs and hatched them. Raised the babies separately because they were so delicate. Introduced them later and the male attacked the female. Rumor spread.

Of course this is just speculation but could easily be the case.

I lived through it- it isn't speculation only- you are correct. And funny thing- some of that speculation I got to see passed around incorrectly as fact and some still haunts us as such. Could give you a list but this post is long enough already. One thing I will say is that I strongly believe melleri are not so different socially than other chameleons. Yet they are passed off as something uniquely social. There are other stronger examples- female veileds becoming egg bound if not bred their first cycle is one that was very strongly believed for a few years...

By the way- the social thing with groups of babies- I was able to overcome this with bearded dragons when raised outdoors in sunshine (so basking opportunities were unlimited within the terraria vs a few basking bulbs indoors- another problem to consider with group housing of chameleons indoors) and fed very frequent meals of large numbers of very small insects- 3-5 meals a day. The dominant animals fill up in the earlier meals, the least dominant finally fill up in the later meals. The smaller insects plays a role too. I was able to take 100 newly hatched individuals and divide them into groups of 20 and get an amazingly uniform growth rate of all individuals over the summer one year. Never saw anything like it. BUT- it also used 3/4 of a million roaches to get it. LOL I didn't have the resources to do it for everyone. BUT- with the rebuild after last year's fire, I'm built a lot of heated shelving- will have far more insects than ever before- and that's saying something- was feeding 10,000 insects a day from my colonies last spring. Hoping I will be able to feed like that summer's trial all the time when things are going again here.

I want to reproduce the results with baby chams, but haven't tried yet. I do think it will work...

For whatever it's worth- I wouldn't leave a gravid female chameleon in a group situation. Social stress can cause egg binding...

 

[fluxlizard]

Not always the case with horny boys.... My boys will attempt to mate with a female even if she is sending out the clear F-Off signals.

That is true with healthy males more often than not. They will "rape" non receptive females if they are kept socially isolated other than breeding introductions.

But I found when kept in groups- social behavior and sexual behavior were much less intense.. Even stifled like I mentioned in my post above- breeding results were far less frequent...

 

[rshewfel]

I believe housing males and females together 24/7 is not a responsible way of keeping or breeding

This is your opinion, and it is a common one. Because of your input, I respect it.

I don't believe I have behaved irresponsibly over the years, but I do believe that many keepers are not responsible enough to house chameleons together. While I am in no way an expert or ever will be, I do have a lot of experience on this subject. I have countless hours of observation that I have very much enjoyed. I am in this hobby because I am fascinated with chameleons and nature. I quit for 10 years because I felt guilt over housing wild animals in captivity. I have been drawn back because of boredom; as this is the only hobby I have ever enjoyed. I promise I have the chameleons best interest in mind.

Currently I do not house any gravid females with a cage mate. I also have separate cages for all my chameleons. I observe them, and make decisions based on these observation. I also take into consideration input from other members experiences. If at any time I feel that my chameleon will do better in a different situation, I will change what I am doing. I will, however, not make my decision based on pressure from this forum. I hope people can respect that.

Thank for your response. I have to get some work done