Gotta get this off my chest...I don't blame you for not reading it all...

[Decadancin]

First, a little history about my chameleon experience. I have one. Just one. He turned 4 recently and I consider myself fortunate to have had no major issues so far. He came from a local Petco, and was tiny when I first brought him home. I learned fast what not to do thanks to this awesome forum community. I quickly found myself spending lots more than I imagined to provide for him. I relied on the experience of many members to answer my concerns, and they were willing to put up with my novice questions. 4 years later and I consider myself lucky and blessed to have Zaphod in my life. He is a picky little poop, but he is worth it. I also am honored to be a moderator here. It is a position I take seriously, even though I often use humor.
I have always believed that there is no absolute answer to any question, and this includes chameleon husbandry. I don't like when people ignore good advice and ask the same question over and over, but it's OK. We learn at our own pace. The beauty of these forums is that support is always there for a new owner who needs good information.
Having said all this, I have a major complaint. Just because you believe something to be true does not mean it is an absolute truth. I can take my chameleon out for some time out of the enclosure, and he does enjoy it. Yes, I just put a human feeling onto an animal. Sue me. Can anyone explain why after he is out he is front and center in his enclosure wanting to come out? (Yes, he is a grumpy veiled that spits fire and can turn you to stone with one look.) He will actually come to the front door and wants out. Yes, he may think part of his enclosure is outside, but he doesn't show any stress. I don't claim to know how to see stress in all animals, but the simple conclusion is that he wants to be out for one reason or another.
I consistently put human emotions on my cats, but totally understand that in reality they are doing what cats do. They own us, not the other way around. I'm OK with that, and so are they. My chameleon showed no signs of stress when younger, and would come running for handheld greens.
To shorten this thread a bit, I'll get to the point.
There have been quite a few posts recently that are about handling chameleons and how much stress it causes. Also, there have been threads about euthanasia and such, and even a few posts that have attacked others for their beliefs in husbandry, whether or not this was the intention.
Here is my answer. It is not the only one, and I don't have years and years of experience to back it up, but here it is...
If an animal is healthy, a little stress is OK. Chameleons in the wild are often photographed or even held and do not show signs of stress. I'm sure an animsl's instincts are to avoid predators, but who is to say that is how we are seen? I admit there are times when this is the case. I can't think of one situation where my cham has acted this way.
I don't take my chameleon to the vet for checkups, but don't think it is a bad idea. If nothing else, you may learn about your vet! Just because you share issues and experiences with the community about your visits, doesn't mean you are doing something wrong. Most importantly, we do not know everything. You can believe what you believe, but that doesn't make you the ultimate source.
I don't claim to know everything, and I don't want to attack anyone, but if you find yourself constantly arguing with people over issues, maybe you could ask yourself why. Maybe the way you deliver the message is part of the problem.
I have so much to say here that I think it is losing clarity, but I'm just finding myself cringing at too many posts recently.

I think I need to regroup before adding to this, and most have already moved on to the next thread .

Sorry for the soap box.

 

[Remkon]

Yes, I just put a human feeling onto an animal. Sue me.

*Dials 911*
*Hello, 911...?*
*Yes, I'd like to report a crime...*
*Decadancin just put his 'human emotion' into his animal*
*Yes, please arrest him, tazer him if you get the chance...*
*Yes, I will sue... This is animal cruelty!*

--------------
Well I agree with what you write and as stated before, a chameleon will probably not like you to take him out but he will like the benefits you bring like a free ride, good foods, protection and maybe some outside time...
You're lucky your chameleon is like that, most of us would love it if they had a chameleon like that!
I do think we should not advertise a chameleon as being an animal to hold, people will expect theirs to be like that too and will eventually put to much stress on their animal trying to force it out of it's enclosure.

I don't take my chameleon to the vet for checkups, but don't think it is a bad idea. If nothing else, you may learn about your vet!

I don't take my reptiles to a vet for checkups either...
A checkup may give you some reassurance but does not prevent anything from happening in the rest of the year... At least that's my opinion.

My oldest reptile (ackie) I've got for 12 years now and has never seen a vet.
With a life expectancy of 12-15 years I think he will never see a vet unless it's to put him down.

 

[Decadancin]

Well I agree with what you write and as stated before, a chameleon will probably not like you to take him out but he will like the benefits you bring like a free ride, good foods, protection and maybe some outside time...
You're lucky your chameleon is like that, most of us would love it if they had a chameleon like that!
I do think we should not advertise a chameleon as being an animal to hold, people will expect theirs to be like that too and will eventually put to much stress on their animal trying to force it out of it's enclosure.


I don't take my reptiles to a vet for checkups either...
A checkup may give you some reassurance but does not prevent anything from happening in the rest of the year... At least that's my opinion.

My oldest reptile (ackie) I've got for 12 years now and has never seen a vet.
With a life expectancy of 12-15 years I think he will never see a vet unless it's to put him down.

Agreed, it isn't the best idea to say that they are cuddly and enjoy being held, especially to new owners that may not be able to understand the signs of stress or health issues, especially because so many ask "How can I tame my pet?" as one of the first questions after "My chameleon HATES me!" There is the biggest mistake that so many of us make which is not letting the new chameleons settle in for a while to feel secure before having interaction with them.

As far as wellness visits, I take my cats every year, but not my chameleon. I know people who never take any of their animals to the vet, and I think in many ways this is cruel, but I have never personally seen the benefit of taking lizards. That's just me. If there is a problem, then yes he will be going. I don't think most vets would know what to do if I brought my chameleon in. (Nothing against them, but they likely only have basic knowledge about chameleons.)

 

[Decadancin]

The thing that gets me so frustrated is that many on the forums give advice as absolutes. (I'm probably guilty of it also) Some of the best threads on here are those that question how we do things and challenge the standards. There are some things that are certain, and I would never argue that mealworms are a good staple feeder for chameleons, but when giving the advice I would challenge everyone to remember where they started. Go back and look at your first post or thread and see just how silly it likely sounds to you now. (There are some who came here with tons of experience already, but not many) I remember asking about my chameleon literally burying himself under his substrate in his glass tank eek: (Yes @Remkon you can start dialing 911 again ) and falling asleep during the day. I got the general response that if he is sleeping during the day that there is something very wrong, but in fact there wasn't. He was exploring or hunting, but health wise he was fine (just weird ) I learned quickly and I'm sure had some good luck along the way, but who knows.

We all start somewhere, and we should remember that before sounding too high and mighty. (Someone may just dig up one of our first posts and throw it in our faces) Some of us will never learn what is needed to give these amazing animals the proper care they need, but hopefully most will. I just hope that our advice doesn't scare people away or our attitudes make others leave the forums because they feel attacked by us know-it-alls .


(By the way, don't bother looking for my first posts. They have been permanently sealed and placed in the Chameleon Forums Hall of Fame. There is a small monument that is currently being erected and should be done soon. I will let you all know when the ceremony will be. Gifts and cash are currently being accepted )

 

[Gnarlychams]

I agree with this.

The hardest think about the husbandry debate is that there are so many ways of achieving "proper" husbandry. What works for me on the coast of Oregon may not work for someone in the desert of Nevada. I feel people forget sometimes that location can have a huge impact on what we do to achieve that "proper" husbandry.

Handling the chameleon for me is kinda of a toss up but I work with all my Cham's on a daily basis. I have many panthers that welcome my presence and come right to me and on the flip side of the coin I have one in particular Zeus my large oustiletii who I only pull out to give him his outside time. Not saying a new chameleon owner should just start handling right off the get go but it takes time and lots of patience and if you have a veiled.. well it will take even more time .

Vet checks I believe should be done at least 2 times a year, mostly for fecal checks. "Now that's just me". But then again that's easy for me to say when I run all my own fecal tests at home. But when you have a single Cham you should be able to tell when something is not right. Even just by visual look at the droppings you can tell a few things just by looks. Physically you should be able to tell if something else is up, example. (Eyes sunk in, dark in color, bowel movements, black spots) the list could go on. But hey if your Cham is totally healthy and you at least know the signs then more power to you.

 

[Decadancin]

OK, OK, I have spoken with the Chameleon Forum records keepers and they have allowed the viewing of said

Spoiler: First Post

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/sleeping-under-substrate.92362/

Pretty funny now, but we all start somewhere .

 

[Remkon]

The hardest think about the husbandry debate is that there are so many ways of achieving "proper" husbandry. What works for me on the coast of Oregon may not work for someone in the desert of Nevada. I feel people forget sometimes that location can have a huge impact on what we do to achieve that "proper" husbandry

100% agree with this...
It's like the discussion screen enclosures vs glass/wooden enclosures... People have had success in both and will say their way has proven to work but there are situations I can think off where a glass enclosure would be the way to go and vise versa...
Same for lighting, 10.0 vs 5.0 or maybe even HQI...
It can all work in different situations and has worked for many people so there's no 1 way of doing stuff and you always need to be prepared to adapt if something turns out not to work for you...
This is why it's a hobby and a hobby costs time, money and effort.

These forums are great because they keep us thinking of how we can possibly improve husbandry, even if you think you've got things down... But everybody needs to take their own situation in consideration in the end because no two situations will ever be the same.

 

[Gnarlychams]

100% agree with this...
It's like the discussion screen enclosures vs glass/wooden enclosures... People have had success in both and will say their way has proven to work but there are situations I can think off where a glass enclosure would be the way to go and vise versa...
Same for lighting, 10.0 vs 5.0 or maybe even HQI...
It can all work in different situations and has worked for many people so there's no 1 way of doing stuff and you always need to be prepared to adapt if something turns out not to work for you...
This is why it's a hobby and a hobby costs time, money and effort.

These forums are great because they keep us thinking of how we can possibly improve husbandry, even if you think you've got things down... But everybody needs to take their own situation in consideration in the end because no two situations will ever be the same.

Exactly.

What's works for my oustilet's is most definitely not going to work for montane's and what works for one montane may not work for another montane. Everyone needs to understand that husbandry and lighting is not a cut and dry thing. You have the basic guidelines but it goes so much deeper then what most "including myself" fully understand. In my opinion when it comes to husbandry and lighting there is no wrong questions.

 

[KapitalJ]

Spoiler: First Post

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/sleeping-under-substrate.92362/

Pretty neat to see this.... everyone starts somewhere. With a little advise and an open mind, anyone can do this!

 

[Remkon]

OK, OK, I have spoken with the Chameleon Forum records keepers and they have allowed the viewing of said

Spoiler: First Post

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/sleeping-under-substrate.92362/

Pretty funny now, but we all start somewhere .

Seems like the police won't do, I'm calling the FBI!

Nah, it's good to see people learn and improve..
The reason why we are here is to take and hopefully share some...
I truly hope my experience may help someone keep their animal better, even if it's just a bit.

 

[Twitchet]

Well said Mr Moderator, I know exactly what you mean
I have a panther- he was continually handled by his previous owners children so consequentially he is so chilled out its crazy. When I bought him home I thought 'must let him alone- dont go near him, be prepared for him adjusting and being scared ' I put his viv in my room and there he was- let me out!( exactly as he had done an hour earlier when his owner demonstrated how relaxed he was) - I did- but I didn't try to handle him against his will- I opened the viiv- he had a wander around- ate something from my fingers and then back in. He had no stress of a new environment- just carried on as usual- Visitors look at him, bring their dogs- no problem, he walks on peoples arms and hands-no problem, no hesitation, He 's not in escape mode - he's just walking around- he feeds from peoples fingers, When I handle him 4-6 times a day- he comes out, have free range around the room- he has lots of ropes to wander over, does use them and enjoys them but a great deal of the time he spends walking over me, he could let but he chooses to stay- i don't feed him from there so it's not food related
.
I have a parsons- cb but had never been handled- would freeze on sight- wouldn't eat for 3 weeks, after settling he is gradually is adapting to handling once a day and briefly, as I have to collect him up and put him back in his indoor viv after a day of rambling. He's more relaxed- can cope better , will feed from forceps- now remains relaxed when I walk past or look at him.
He tolerates it and I take it slow but although he would prefer not to have this contact I have to and more than that I think it's better for him to be handled- I need to but maybe I'll have to one day if he's ill. I know there's a limit to what he will put up with and that's fine, so I'm taking his lead and doing what is necessary but I wont be trying to make this one a pet that is handled for my pleasure.
So I feel it's healthy and less stressful for him and me if there is contact between us- If I was not to handle him ,if he was ill and I had to I think the stress would be too much- I would not enjoy it either but a little handling or just interaction is a good thing- one that is working.
i know new people and other species would stress him so they are excluded from him, respecting his boundaries and limitations and what he can cope with at this stage in his life.

I can't thank the people that have helped me here , I couldn't and wouldn't of even contemplated getting my chams or esp. parsons without knowing I had such a support network here.
I however very rarely give care advice- mainly because, at the moment, I don't personally feel qualified to do so. I also prefer not to as my view may not be the same as someone else and would prefer not to get into a discussion. Life's too short - I'll just take the quiet route I think.

 

[PetMom]

Just reading all the posts before I go off to work to pay for my chameleon's worms. Think of all the years it took to domesticate cats and dogs and to figure out what they needed. My dog still tilted his head at me like "What does this strange dog want from me? How stupid is she?". In comparison we have had these species in our homes for just a tiny drop of time in comparison. There are going to be mistakes made but we learn from them and try again. It is ok to have differing opinions. The world is full of different viewpoints over everything, The forums are a good place to share information and disagree over it. The goal is still the same: to learn as much as we can and share what we have learned. We can agree to disagree.

 

[marley patches]

most new members like myself will read up on this site and still ask questions because some info is not full info and thankful some have time to give us more info ,,,,and if I post a reply I will always say just my opion because I don't know it all ,,,,,some know EVERY THING j.s.

 

[Carlton]

I've been on several web animal husbandry forums for many years and have to remind myself why they got created in the first place. To share information for the welfare of our creatures. A big part of it is to educate newbies so they a) don't buy an animal they are really not suited to care for, b) learn how much time, $$, daily attention, and maintenance the creature and its habitat will need, and c) prevent suffering and misery for the creature and heartbreak for the keeper.

When we (the community) develop some standardized care information it starts out directed at these newbies, so often times it is a bit dumbed down or simplified so it doesn't completely overwhelm. If we offer too many options and caveats the whole topic can be very confusing and we could end up losing the very people we want to help....and their chams suffer. Once these folks have crested the learning curve they realize they can modify things to suit their particular situation, partly because they are tuned in to their chams' behavior and signs of illness or stress. When they were new at it they couldn't really judge that well. Experimentation should be fine as long as they are careful and I'm glad they share what they've figured out.

I think its very important that keepers understand and not lose sight of the wild situation their species of cham originated from, and remind themselves that there is only so much a pretty specialized animal can adapt to tolerate. This can help weed out the really hairbrained and totally unworkable situations.

I think the hard part is maintaining an entry level of basic necessities that don't really change from situation to situation (need for UVB, basking heat, nutrition), and also recognizing where things can be customized depending on someone's climate, housing, species, etc. Its easy to get calcified into one way of thinking, but people who have a lot of varied experiences with chams often become better able to listen, ponder, speculate, and accept variations. After all, one of the reasons cham husbandry is so intriguing is the need to be creative and sort of a DIYer, right?

 

[Andee]

There is constant new studies being done on chameleons too. What may be good last week isn't good the following month. Who are we to say what is ultimately good for them? All we can do is try our best and read as much information as possible.

 

[Decadancin]

I can't thank the people that have helped me here , I couldn't and wouldn't of even contemplated getting my chams or esp. parsons without knowing I had such a support network here.
I however very rarely give care advice- mainly because, at the moment, I don't personally feel qualified to do so. I also prefer not to as my view may not be the same as someone else and would prefer not to get into a discussion. Life's too short - I'll just take the quiet route I think.

In comparison we have had these species in our homes for just a tiny drop of time in comparison. There are going to be mistakes made but we learn from them and try again. It is ok to have differing opinions. The world is full of different viewpoints over everything, The forums are a good place to share information and disagree over it. The goal is still the same: to learn as much as we can and share what we have learned. We can agree to disagree.

most new members like myself will read up on this site and still ask questions because some info is not full info and thankful some have time to give us more info ,,,,and if I post a reply I will always say just my opinion because I don't know it all ,,,,,some know EVERY THING j.s.

Well, as I said, I needed to regroup before adding to this. There is something here (at least I'm seeing it) that is truly my main concern. Exactly what I've seen while reading through many, many threads. Members of all levels have just completely stopped posting and participating because they are being attacked over their statements, or bullied with opposing views, or just don't care for the way answers are worded. There have been quite a few actual borderline personal attacks towards members that aren't even part of the conversation except for a mention from someone saying that they are a good resource.

Debate is healthy and will generally lead to better techniques and solutions, but if Forum Members are not comfortable participating because they are literally afraid of what may be said or how they will be treated then we are not helping.

My main reason for posting this long and tedious thread is in the hope that I can help give the confidence back to quite a few who have reached out to me since becoming a moderator and let them know that I will try to address their concerns. It is not cut and dry because there are no specific rules violations, so it isn't as simple as warning people, but I hope maybe everyone on the forums will go back and look at their first post again. I hope that it will bring us back to the time we typed out our first "Hi, I'm new here!" or "Please Help!!!" or, maybe even more importantly for those who lurk in the background and never post and are only here for the info or the pictures.

Our words can hurt even when they aren't intended that way. Our messages are clear to us as we write them but do not always translate well when read by others. We need to be mindful of the forum rules...

1. Members must show respect for others at all times. This is crucial to maintaining a friendly environment. There are no exceptions.
2. Chameleon Forums will not tolerate rudeness, personal attacks, derogatory insults, bigotry, defamatory comments or purposeless inflammatory behavior. Our decision is final in these matters.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any concerns, or if you are not comfortable commenting about something in a public forum. I will get back to you as soon as I can. For those of you who have actually read through this entire thread, you have too much free time and need another chameleon to occupy it . Please check some of our forum sponsors to see if they can help .

 

[shmeenakoz]

Thank you for being real and getting that out. I have not been here for awhile and I am surprised to hear that some have been attacked or bullied out of here. That is very unfortunate! I would have been completely lost without this site years ago when I started with my first chammy. I hope your message is well received by all and yes I read this whole post along with your very first...that being said, its a good thing I just bought a new member to the fam

 

[Jay3479]

Nicely said decadancin every species is different and everyone of them has a different personality and lvl of stress . It's in the owner not to push past there pets limits. My question is what do chameleons do in the wild when they get sick? Do they run around trying to find a vet? Or even better a good bird vet. I believe they would b extinct if they weren't able to rid a parisite or minor problem on there own. Dose anyone know to what temp kills a paricite? I'm no expert that's why I'm asking. Another conflict on this site kills me is water what kind to use distilled,ro, ext . Then to hear so many people putting there chams in the shower to hydrate if my tap water isn't good enough to drink in his enclosure why is it good enough to drink in the shower? And why r your Chams not drinking in there habitats? This site is great with a lot of knowledge that needs to b filtered and opinions r like assholes everyone has one. and just to put it out there I've heard many people say they have walked away from this site cause they felt like they were being scolded by members 4 saving an animal or doing the best they could in there situation which isn't cool there looking 4 advice not a pecker slapping or an argument
Jay

 

[trickedoutbiker]

*Dials 911*
*Hello, 911...?*
*Yes, I'd like to report a crime...*
*Decadancin just put his 'human emotion' into his animal*
*Yes, please arrest him, tazer him if you get the chance...*
*Yes, I will sue... This is animal cruelty!*

#DecadancinLivesMatter



I agree with your post @Decadancin in that there are indeed, many different answers for the same questions lots of the time. It's all about what works for YOU and not what works for someone else. Sometimes one method works great for YOU but not for HIM or HER. Sometimes one device suits YOUR needs but HIS or HERS. Sometimes there are lots of right answers, and sometimes it all comes down to preference.

I think what matters is that we all just try our best to mimic their environments the best we can in a caged environment (or free-range too) and that we just try to provide the best care of our ability. Noticing subtle differences in your animal's behavior or appearance is also key to being a good keeper. As long as we can do this and make sure our chameleons live the longest and healthiest lives possible, then I don't think it matters what the methods are. A happy cham is a happy cham.

 

[Remkon]

For those of you who have actually read through this entire thread, you have too much free time and need another chameleon to occupy it . Please check some of our forum sponsors to see if they can help .

I was reading at work...
But since I came across a breeder of bluebar ambilobe panthers I may just have to do so...
I'll just have to tell the wife it was on advice of a chameleonforums moderator.