Glass Cages Why is everyone against them?

[Grumpy]

I wanted to have a discussion about glass cages vs screen cages. I see several people on here tell people not to use glass cages because of airflow. Now if they are using a standard aquarium I would agree however there are a new terrariums out there that are designed with lower venting and screen tops to correct this issue.
Glass is easier to clean and sanitize. It provides a more aesthetic look. It is stronger. It provides a surface to easily attach suction cups for vine, feeder, mister heads etc.
With that being said what advantage does the screen provide over the glass?

 

[camimom]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/everyone-who-knows-you-cant-keep-chams-glass-31937/

 

[Olimpia]

You'd be totally right, the new terrariums with the screen top and ventilation strip across the front are just fine for chameleons depending on your conditions. But people parrot information they've heard without understanding it, that's really the only reason you see people pooh-pooh glass cages.

Screen is easier for me here in Florida, where I'd have a problem keeping things cool enough in a glass terrarium, and because I have very large chameleons that I can't fit into most glass terrariums. And they're easy to take outside for natural light and water. But for other people under different circumstances glass is perfect.

 

[FrankTheTank]

You are definitely right about the vented glass terrariums. They work in enough air flow for your chameleon. Olimpia said it. It also depends on how well you can control temps inside as well. I use plexi on front and screen on the sides for even air flow and cooling as temps in my cage stay around the high 70's on the bottom.
They are definitely not all bad though. I think they are much more appealing than all screen cages which is why I like plexi on the front. I almost did it on the side and just left a little room on top and/or bottom to put a screened frame for air and cooling but plexi is just so darn expensive. All this means nothing if you are buyin a cage though. Not many screen glass combos out there. But anything in a cool environment that gets enough air flow with the vents is perfectly fine for chams

 

[New2chamz]

I thought terraium or glass would look nicer to but my chameleon isnt tge smartest and at times he could see his own reflection and thought it was another cham and causing him to be very stressed also i thought about what id rather be in and even though you can see through glass it would feel more closed in to me and the exo terra and terraiums have serculation i dont tgink its enough i had a ball python die from a respitory infection do to lack of serculation in his terrarium and its not a pretty way to die so my vote would be for screen but im sure its possable to use terrarium !

 

[Oliviabryant]

Glass terrariums aren't a big deal, you do have to be very careful about the limited drainage. I would still say that they are better suited for montane species such as a Jackson's. If you ever have trouble keep humidity in a mesh enclosure- you can fasten visqueen or a shower curtain around 3 sides.

 

[Defianceofexistence]

I have Loki (6.5 month old male veiled) in a glass terrarium and he has been in it since I first got him (he was about 2 months old) and he has done fantastic in it. He is a bright healthy boy. The only thing I did was printed out some color photos of a rain forest and tapped them to the sides so he couldn't see himself.

Other then the fact that he is SUPER grumpy about anyone near his turf or heaven forbid trying to put their hands into his lair lol....he has really thrived in his glass oasis.

 

[Balizar]

Glass is not bad as long as you have a small fan or proper air flow. Just because it has vents does not mean it is "venting". You just have to mind where you place it in your house so air actually does vent thru it. I happen to think screens are easier for me to clean but I have seen some really nice fish tanks tho!

 

[RPCV]

It is a matter of air flow (number of air changes) and the concentration of contaminants; which could be microbial (bacteria/mold), chemical or humidity. Increased air changes provide more dilution and therefore reduced exposure and reduced risk. Obviously, screen cages have higher air changes, aquariums very little and glass vented on the top and bottom would be somewhere inbetween.

As a rule of thumb - if you double the ventilation in an enclosure you reduce the concentraiton of the contaminants in the air by approximatley half. Based on this - much of it depends on the intial concentration and the rate of contaminant generation. So if you have a very clean cage you will be fine with less ventilation. If you have a cage full O' cham crap then your risk is increased even if you have excellent ventilation.

One thing that is often overlooked is high relative humitidy is also a concern. Maintaining RH above approximately 70% for extended periods of time can cause microbial growth on surfaces within the enclosure. A problem with limited ventilation is we all freak out about keeping the RH up and cage does not get the "dry time" it needs and we end up with URIs.

 

[fluxlizard]

I'll be a bit obstinate and fess up- I used medium to largish glass aquaria for breeding chameleons for several years when I started (early 90s). The breeder who sold me my first pair also used glass aquaria. He bred several species successfully over and over again in those tanks, and so did I, and some of the species I bred were not the same as the ones that he bred. Between the two of us, we produced at least a dozen species in aquarium tanks. Maybe a dozen and a half even.

I would put some of those early breeders up against anyone's even today as far as health and vigor and coloration and longevity.

The forum member who came up with the low temperature strategy for lengthening the lifespan of female veileds had some of the longest lived female veileds ever known, mentioned she had someone studying and doing a paper on her females, and she once posted that she kept them in medium/smallish sized glass aquarium tanks as well. And here she had some of the longest lived female veileds ever, if not THE longest lived.

Personally I think the whole glass thing, whether there is lots of airflow or not, is just a big myth. It is no more true for these lizards than for other lizards of similar size and arboreal habits that are kept and bred in glass enclosures or tanks every day.

I believe the glass tank myth spread when certain editors of a certain newsletter that was popular before the internet was widespread really pushed the concept of screen cages being absolutely necessary in every issue of that newsletter after they became the editors. Before them, that was not the sole view of that newsletter. After them, many noobs who never tried glass became absolutely hateful towards anyone admitting to using glass.

Because success with chameleons was in its infancy and the popularity of these lizards rose alongside the popularity of the newsletter once these editors took it over (and put a really professional and excellent polish on it), I think the whole screen thing became ingrained in everyone's mind as one of the reasons we were now successful with these lizards, forgetting that at the same time screen cages became the thing to use, there were also huge advances in veterinary medicine, understanding of diet and temperature requirements, the invention of lizard-specific decent supplementation products, new lighting products, etc etc that came along at the same time as the rise in popularity of these lizards. Basically- there were huge advances in all areas of herpetoculture and support products and services in the 90s as chameleons rose in popularity.

I'm not hacking on the editors of that excellent newsletter at all- it's just that sometimes when there are multiple variables at play that all come into existance at approximately the same time, it can be difficult to isolate which are critical and which are not critical, but are still excellent functional ingredients in the recipe of success... Functional ingredients that are not critical can always be substituted with other functional ingredients...

All that said, screen cages do have some excellent things going for them- they are much cheaper per cubic foot, and can be used outdoors weather permitting. That is why I use them today. I like big cages for quality of life reasons for the lizards after using much smaller enclosures in that past time. There is something really beautiful and rewarding about watching a chameleon stretch out and walk someplace.

But indoors in my living room- if I had chameleons there (and I don't- our free-roaming house iguanas now occupy that space), no thanks on screen enclosures.

Edit- and oh yeah- I didn't use fans, the other breeder I knew didn't use fans, another breeder/friend/veterinarian who bred jacksons over a few generations who used aquaria didn't use fans, and neither did the forum member who had the longest lived veiled females. We all used plants though- especially pothos vines I used. And if the tank is medium sized there will always be some airflow/exchange simply by the chimney effect- warmed air under the basking light rises up and out of the tank, pulling cool air in and across the bottom towards the light.

Edit edit- as far as humidity- I don't think any of us used a hygrometer as far as I know. I never worried about it because humidity issues never gave my chameleons problems. But if you lightly mist a couple times a day (once morning, once evening) and drip once a day into a catch bowl and have a potted vine in there respirating, humidity should be fine. Never saw any mold or anything of the sort, and the lizards always shed just fine.

 

[kplatvoet]

As someone who is new with chameleons and having never kept reptiles before this -(except for one back in olden times) I think that screen cages with good drainage are easier for someone like me as far as getting things right or at least not totally screwing up- Especially living in a humid area - with the heat on this winter I can see the issues that people who live in a dry area might feel differently - I have to agree that the glass cages look a lot better -

 

[Balizar]

I love hearing the stances on this topic!!! I hit post 101 YAY ME!!!

 

[sandrachameleon]

simple answer: ignorance

Its not the construction material of the enclosure that matters so much as the environment maintained within it. Glass is ideal for many situations (and yes you can have easy drainage with glass). Screen is good in many situations. Wood, plexi, coated wire - all sorts of perfectly good options for various situations.

 

[Balizar]

I was wondering about the acrylic. I guess it would be the same as glass. Wasn't sure about water stains on the acrylic either. I guess as long as you wipe it down regularly as all types of cages should be, it would be fine.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

The mantra of screen cages being the only way to go comes from that being the caging method that has the widest margin for error. That is usually the best way to go for a beginner who is trying to figure this all out. The continued preaching of that is from beginners that have enough success under their belt that they want to share and help others along. That is fine and appropriate. They will sometime, sooner or later, question their tightly held beliefs when they are presented with someone who is doing it totally differently.

Unfortunately, a screen cage is not always the most appropriate caging. In areas that have wide temperature swings or very low humidity, a screen cage destroys your ability to create temperature and humidity gradients within your cage. Remember the old campfire dilemma where it is too hot next to the fire, but one step away is freezing cold? We can end up doing that to our chameleons if we have a very cold house. That heat lamp may not go far and your chameleon may have to choose between lamp burns and being cold. Here is an article to bring a bit of balance to the screen-only dogma
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02JulCaettaKruger.html
This was back in 2002, but there have been glass aquarium chameleon keepers all along. And in Europe they wonder what is up with all the US screen fanatics.

This all said, there are things to watch out when you combine a heat lamp, misting and an enclosed space. Experienced chameleon keepers tend to have developed a feel for things and could make just about any enclosure work (glass, screen, plastic, glass/screen combo, free range, etc...), but we are still left with what to tell a beginner when they ask what is the way to house a chameleon. If they cannot find a mentor to explain to them the need for gradients and help them pick the right enclosure for their conditions they have to go to general care sheets. I have written numerous care sheets in my time and, if I have limited space, the screen cage ends up being the recommendation that I have figured gives the greatest probability of success.

Bill

 

[nj011908]

hybrid!!!!!

just do what i did 18x18x24 exo-terra, a 18x18x36 reptibreeze, a trip to homedepot to join the two and wa-la 18x18x60" !!!! hybrid, my cham seems to love it al though doesnt go into the bottom glass to often, thats like the forest floor, no good

 

[Tay And A]

People advise against glass because of respiratory infection

 

[kplatvoet]

I will be very interested in the cages that Dragpmstrand come up with in the next couple of years- I am hopeful that they (you) are successful with your breeder cages as they are obviously the result of experience and a lot of thought went into them - my suspicion is that with success in the breeder cages a keeper cage with more options is just a matter of time. I think with a beginner like myself it's better not to vary without knowing the pro's and con's of each and weighing the situation with that. You can put shower curtain on a screen cage it's harder to add screen to a glass. If I lived in a more arid area glass keeps more humidity but also more heat in them- knowing that makes it harder to screw up - more experienced people have had the opportunity to learn from mistakes and are more likely to see a problem with a situation before it actually becomes a mistake.

 

[broderp]

just do what i did 18x18x24 exo-terra, a 18x18x36 reptibreeze, a trip to homedepot to join the two and wa-la 18x18x60" !!!! hybrid, my cham seems to love it al though doesnt go into the bottom glass to often, thats like the forest floor, no good

Do share more details on how you joined these..

On topic.. I find glass very easy to control and maintain temps. The heat during the day dry up any moisture from my automatic misting and humidification. By night time when my little guy puts on his pajamas and curls his tail to go to sleep, it's dry and toasty when the lights go out (dusk) and the temp stays within 50-60F and 40-50% Humidity. Not sure how much easier it can get.

I'd also like to comment that a properly designed terrarium (not fish tank) does have proper airflow. Heat rises. Since the top is mesh, as the heat rises from the terrarium, it draws in fresh air from the vents below. viola! Air Flow.

I believe the myth has perpetuated because people picture a fish tank with a mesh top and stagnant, non- ventilating air. This could not be further from the truth in a modern, purpose designed terrarium.

Worst case scenario with too much humidity or heat, I would simply devise a way to 'power vent' the excess humidity or heat. (And NO, not a super fast, 8K CFM fan, but something with a safe CFM or controllable rate) As I definitely prefer the look and aesthetics of glass over all mesh.

 

[Richrod18]

I have to thanks this group so far. I see honest and understanding answers, and have not seen any angry, belittling of new owners. I asked this question on some Facebook forums and got hammered and seemed like I was being talked down too. This helped with my enclosure, I trusted the People who we thought were experts at the stores. Unfortunately they weren’t and learned from my mistakes “which happens”. I may not have perfect enclosure but definitly trying to build it up right. Yes we could have researched what was best before purchasing our Cham, but I also saw what he was in at the store and couldn’t wait. I will attach a pic of the tank he was in. Which would be better keep him at the store till I got right one or get him out and make him more comfortable till we have a 100% ideal one. I have the glass enclosure with the vent at the bottom and switching out plastic for real plants and should have correct lighting by morning. Thanks again for making me a little more comfortable with my glass case.