camimom
New Member
Awww..
Do you have another rooom he can go into? so he can be away from the others?
Does he not feed properly?
George had surgery
- Thread starter ferretinmyshoes
- Start date
Awww..
Do you have another rooom he can go into? so he can be away from the others?
Does he not feed properly?
No, I have a rack for the chams in the guest/reptile room because it's the only room that stays warm enough for them in the winter and cool enough in the summer so that's really the only place he can go. He injured his tongue a few years ago so it shoots crooked so he has to cup feed, which he does readily at least. But he's really finicky about drinking so sometimes he needs to be syringe watered. Plus he's really mean so all in all he's not a great rehoming candidate. 
rsepiphyte
Established Member
Thank you for posting those pictures! I makes me feel warm inside to know that you care so much for him and can take such good care of him. Amazing pictures and thank you for sharing. Wish George a quick recovery! Ruth
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
thats was really cool to see. Loved looking at the xrays.
I wonder if an xray of a cham with MBD could be shown contrasted with George's xray on the "What MBD looks like" thread? Good to see an example of a healthy bone structure compared to a poor one. And, you could point out his bent legs remaining despite his corrected care. As they say, a picture's worth a thousand words.
Great idea Carlton!
#1: Chameleon with MBD resulting in poor bone density.
#2: Chameleon with good bone density but residual damage from MBD when he was young.
#3: Normal chameleon skeleton with good bone density.
The deformities on George are indicated by the yellow arrows, where the bones are deformed and partially collapsed. Compare this to the blue arrow on #3 - that is what the arm bones are supposed to look like: straight and apart.
One of the biggest problems with MBD is the loss of calcium in the bone because it is being stripped away for various other bodily processes, such as muscle movement. This results in weak bones and on x-rays results in bones that are hardly visible. Things that are white on x-rays are mineral, like calcium in bones. When that is missing the bones do not show up very well on x-rays. If you look at the skulls of the three chameleons it is apparent how much better you can see every bone in #2 and 3. Also take a look at the arms of #1. How many toe bones can you count? I cannot even see any bones at all in the left arm, and in the right I still can't tell you how many there are. It is hard to see any of the vertebral bones and even the ribs are hard to count. The bones should look like #2 and #3 where you can see all of them with good detail and be able to count them. Lack of proper bone density is a classic indicator of calcium deficiency, and can quickly lead to pathologic fractures where the bones are so weak that they break just under the weight of the chameleon. While some x-rays can turn out poorly due to technique and can be improved by enhancing certain settings on the x-ray machine, in a case of MBD you will not be able to make the bones show up any better regardless of technique because the mineral to make them show up is simply not there.
#1: Chameleon with MBD resulting in poor bone density.
#2: Chameleon with good bone density but residual damage from MBD when he was young.
#3: Normal chameleon skeleton with good bone density.
The deformities on George are indicated by the yellow arrows, where the bones are deformed and partially collapsed. Compare this to the blue arrow on #3 - that is what the arm bones are supposed to look like: straight and apart.
One of the biggest problems with MBD is the loss of calcium in the bone because it is being stripped away for various other bodily processes, such as muscle movement. This results in weak bones and on x-rays results in bones that are hardly visible. Things that are white on x-rays are mineral, like calcium in bones. When that is missing the bones do not show up very well on x-rays. If you look at the skulls of the three chameleons it is apparent how much better you can see every bone in #2 and 3. Also take a look at the arms of #1. How many toe bones can you count? I cannot even see any bones at all in the left arm, and in the right I still can't tell you how many there are. It is hard to see any of the vertebral bones and even the ribs are hard to count. The bones should look like #2 and #3 where you can see all of them with good detail and be able to count them. Lack of proper bone density is a classic indicator of calcium deficiency, and can quickly lead to pathologic fractures where the bones are so weak that they break just under the weight of the chameleon. While some x-rays can turn out poorly due to technique and can be improved by enhancing certain settings on the x-ray machine, in a case of MBD you will not be able to make the bones show up any better regardless of technique because the mineral to make them show up is simply not there.
Dr O
Veterinarian
BOOYAH!!!!
does someone owe me money from bets that were collected? c'mon, I know there was a pool out there somewhere!!
in all seriousness, it ties back to the thread from the other day re: veterinary exam prices. eyes on (and hands) is what matters in medical cases. ferret knew it was likely to be a papilloma from the getgo when she and i had exchanged some emails. but she had to do the test to prove herself right. now that you did, lock it down for the client that cannot afford a viral inclusion test. the best vets I know (perhaps not the wealthiest) are not the ones that can tick off a sheet of medical tests to be done. they're the ones that don't have to.
I think I was the one that originally described it as "papilloma-like" in my first message to you about it.
I'm hoping that it will somehow help the vet field recognize other cases in chams and other reptiles now that they know some primers were able to identify it in George's case. I didn't get a detailed report other than it tested positive but there doesn't seem to be anything published on papillomavirus in chameleons yet so maybe one day he'll get to contribute to one.
I'm hoping that it will somehow help the vet field recognize other cases in chams and other reptiles now that they know some primers were able to identify it in George's case. I didn't get a detailed report other than it tested positive but there doesn't seem to be anything published on papillomavirus in chameleons yet so maybe one day he'll get to contribute to one.
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ChameleonMom
New Member
Ferret, that is an incredible picture - thank you for posting that and yes! I think it should indeed be added to the "What MBD looks like" thread. Excellent visual example of the various levels of bone density and the damage that can be done to our chams if we don't pay serious attention to general husbandry and nutritional requirements.
And I think you're both pretty great at what you do!
And I think you're both pretty great at what you do!
Thanks! You can see it here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/.
Dr O
Veterinarian
I have been asked 3x thus far in my career to send all of the info that I had in a case to the pathologist who read the slides b/c i came across something new or interesting. I know at least one was published as I got part of the author credit for it. those are the cool cases that you never forget.......except I can't think of what a single one was right now.
Dr O
Veterinarian
And I think you're both pretty great at what you do!
thanks mom!! I just loooove to teach......can't wait until next semester when I'm officially enrolled as an instructor for our local vet tech program!! I've just been doing lectures for free until my FL re-licensure worked itself out. now I even get paid! a pittance, but it'll buy dinner!
I have been asked 3x thus far in my career to send all of the info that I had in a case to the pathologist who read the slides b/c i came across something new or interesting. I know at least one was published as I got part of the author credit for it. those are the cool cases that you never forget.......except I can't think of what a single one was right now.
Email I got today:
"We are going to try and get the papilloma virus he got out of the lesion sequenced and see where it fits in the world of papilloma viruses! Fun stuff. Once we get it all together I sure it will be worthy of a case report and we will be sure to include you as an author for your unique owner and vet perspective of the clinical disease!"
Woohoo! Excited to see what the typing shows and contribute to science.
okiroo
Avid Member
Great idea Carlton!
#1: Chameleon with MBD resulting in poor bone density.
#2: Chameleon with good bone density but residual damage from MBD when he was young.
#3: Normal chameleon skeleton with good bone density.
The deformities on George are indicated by the yellow arrows, where the bones are deformed and partially collapsed. Compare this to the blue arrow on #3 - that is what the arm bones are supposed to look like: straight and apart.
One of the biggest problems with MBD is the loss of calcium in the bone because it is being stripped away for various other bodily processes, such as muscle movement. This results in weak bones and on x-rays results in bones that are hardly visible. Things that are white on x-rays are mineral, like calcium in bones. When that is missing the bones do not show up very well on x-rays. If you look at the skulls of the three chameleons it is apparent how much better you can see every bone in #2 and 3. Also take a look at the arms of #1. How many toe bones can you count? I cannot even see any bones at all in the left arm, and in the right I still can't tell you how many there are. It is hard to see any of the vertebral bones and even the ribs are hard to count. The bones should look like #2 and #3 where you can see all of them with good detail and be able to count them. Lack of proper bone density is a classic indicator of calcium deficiency, and can quickly lead to pathologic fractures where the bones are so weak that they break just under the weight of the chameleon. While some x-rays can turn out poorly due to technique and can be improved by enhancing certain settings on the x-ray machine, in a case of MBD you will not be able to make the bones show up any better regardless of technique because the mineral to make them show up is simply not there.
This should be posted in a health thread
- or at least easy to find for new people getting on the forums.
Thanks okiroo! It's in the new MBD thread that's stickied in the health section: https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Email I got today:
"We are going to try and get the papilloma virus he got out of the lesion sequenced and see where it fits in the world of papilloma viruses! Fun stuff. Once we get it all together I sure it will be worthy of a case report and we will be sure to include you as an author for your unique owner and vet perspective of the clinical disease!"
Woohoo! Excited to see what the typing shows and contribute to science.
Exciting news! I'm glad you finally confirmed exactly what George has.
Dr O
Veterinarian
Email I got today:
"We are going to try and get the papilloma virus he got out of the lesion sequenced and see where it fits in the world of papilloma viruses! Fun stuff. Once we get it all together I sure it will be worthy of a case report and we will be sure to include you as an author for your unique owner and vet perspective of the clinical disease!"
Woohoo! Excited to see what the typing shows and contribute to science.
awesome job, young Jedi!
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