Furcifer pardalis X Furcifer lateralis?

[justjumpit621]

Has this ever been attempted by anyone? Would it be possible? I would like to get a female carpet next year and it would be very interesting if this coupling worked As long as Calais is still good to go mating wise. He is very small for a panther. I believe Nosy Be's are smaller than Ambilobe's? Not possitive but if anyone knows that would be cool. He is half the size of the male ambilobe at Dave's dragons.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Why do you want to do this in the first place? There is absolutely no good reason to intentionally attempt to hybridize different chameleon species in captivity. This is especially true when it sounds like at least one of the animals shouldn't be bred in the first place (an undersized panther). Why don't you try your hand at actually attempting to produce strong, healthy babies of a single species rather than attempting to hybridize two species using individuals that don't appear to have the strongest nutritional and/or genetic foundation?

Chris

 

[justjumpit621]

Calais is very healthy and he is not THAT small, just smaller than the WC Ambilobe at the reptile shop. The only issue he has is his tail had to be taken off and we was having complications but we have it under control now. I thought a one time, experimental breeding would be interesting if indeed it would work to see what the results were. I do not have the female yet so there is no way to know what her nutritional and health background is until then and it would be a while before she was up to breeding age anyway. Many people have tried hybridization with different species and I just thought this one would be interesting. Male carpets are not as colorful as male panthers, and female carpets are colorful, but female panthers are not as colorful. It would be intriguing to see if a cross would produce colored males AND females. IF I decide to try this, and IF the breeding was successful, and IF the eggs did in fact hatch, I would not sell the babies unless told otherwise by knowledgeable people. So I honestly see no reason not to try except for they are not "pure", which means squat to me for a one time project. I am no big reptile breeder, in fact this would be my first try at breeding anything at all. So unless there is a clear genetic problem with mating the two species, I see no issue.

 

[eisentrauti]

Two completely different species. Well you can try it but I think and I hope that nothing happens. Hybridization is in my eyes just acceptable if it happens by accident.

 

[Chris Anderson]

How old is your panther exactly then? Half the size of an adult ambilobe sounds quite under sized for an adult male. If he is an adult and that small, you shouldn't propagate that trait at all, let alone the issue of intentionally hybridizing these two species.

There is absolutely NOTHING beneficial about intentionally hybridizing these two species. Even if you did produce animals where both males and females are colorful, there is no benefit to it. Claiming you'd keep all potential offspring is all well and good but the reality is that you could quickly end up with a lot more than you're able to keep. Hybridizing species should not be done intentionally and deciding to do it just because you think its cool, having no experience with any chameleon breeding whatsoever, is completely careless. You should try your hand at actually attempting to produce strong, healthy babies of a single species.

Chris

 

[eisentrauti]

How old is your panther exactly then? Half the size of an adult ambilobe sounds quite under sized for an adult male. If he is an adult and that small, you shouldn't propagate that trait at all, let alone the issue of intentionally hybridizing these two species.

There is absolutely NOTHING beneficial about intentionally hybridizing these two species. Even if you did produce animals where both males and females are colorful, there is no benefit to it. Claiming you'd keep all potential offspring is all well and good but the reality is that you could quickly end up with a lot more than you're able to keep. Hybridizing species should not be done intentionally and deciding to do it just because you think its cool, having no experience with any chameleon breeding whatsoever, is completely careless. You should try your hand at actually attempting to produce strong, healthy babies of a single species.

Chris

Well said, Chris ! Nowadays many people are completely against reptile keeping, because of problems with alien species or because they are just "animal-lovers", peta or other crap groups or just because they dont like them and they dont see any purpose in people keeping completely wild animals, which reptiles are, in captivity.
One main argument to support this hobby is the seriosity of the keepers / breeders. And to be honest I so NO seriosity in hybridization or all those inbreed histories mainly done in the snake and the gecko community. Why the hell is a complete piebald snake cool when it has at the same time problems hunting for food ? I just dont get this point. It's a wrong development in our hobby.

 

[tkilgour]

In my experience Nosy Be's are no smaller than Ambilobes. In fact, I have 2 Nosy Be's that are huge.

 

[justjumpit621]

Well maybe not half the size, I guess that was being a little over dramatic. he is not timy to say the least, just not a huge boy. I did not mean I would keep all of them, I meant I would not sell them. If it worked and all were healthy I would give them away to knowledgeable people free.

 

[justjumpit621]

Calais is 2 years old and 6 1/2 inches nose to vent

 

[summoner12]

Well maybe not half the size, I guess that was being a little over dramatic. he is not timy to say the least, just not a huge boy. I did not mean I would keep all of them, I meant I would not sell them. If it worked and all were healthy I would give them away to knowledgeable people free.

Calais is 2 years old and 6 1/2 inches nose to vent

6.5" is pretty small for a two year old panther.

Why is it OK to give them away but not sell them?

Listen to what Chris is saying. I don't understand why you want to play mad scientist?

 

[okiroo]

i dont 100% see whats wrong with crossing species. if its possible than they must not be far genetically beacuse usally males a females dont except genetic material from other species. If they do it usually wont make it vary far and will be still born or at the best steral(in order to prevent this species from becomenig viable) i dont really think these two would cross just by the way they look... mabey someone would clue me in on why hybrids are so wrong?

 

[JackP308]

Is it not challenging and rewarding enough to first maintain a healthy stock and breed them successfully before getting fancy? I guess its the new thing to do by reading the other threads.

 

[eisentrauti]

i dont 100% see whats wrong with crossing species. if its possible than they must not be far genetically beacuse usally males a females dont except genetic material from other species. If they do it usually wont make it vary far and will be still born or at the best steral(in order to prevent this species from becomenig viable) i dont really think these two would cross just by the way they look... mabey someone would clue me in on why hybrids are so wrong?

At least if you have the intention be called "a serious keeper" you would never just for fun try to cross different species.
But thats just my opinion.
Some more arguments:
Whats good in having sterile offspring (if they produce really eggs and if they really hatch) ?
Whats good in wasting that way one clutch of a female ?
If the male would be pardalis and the female lateralis, the chance to have too big eggs for a too small chameleon would be very high.

Well, maybe I'm just boring or old-fashioned ...

 

[justjumpit621]

At least if you have the intention be called "a serious keeper" you would never just for fun try to cross different species.
But thats just my opinion.
Some more arguments:
Whats good in having sterile offspring (if they produce really eggs and if they really hatch) ?
Whats good in wasting that way one clutch of a female ?
If the male would be pardalis and the female lateralis, the chance to have too big eggs for a too small chameleon would be very high.

Well, maybe I'm just boring or old-fashioned ...

It was just a thought. I was mainly wondering if anyone has tried it. But the last statement you made was something I was thinking about which is why I was wondering if Calais being smaller would make a difference. I doubt I would follow through with any of this I was just wondering what people though on the cross. so thanks for the input guys.(and gals)

 

[abramyan]

You guys should give the guy a break. What if he wants to try a new thing. What if the results turn out a lot different than expected. I don't see the harm in this and i know that if you produced some of those than i would be one of the people to buy or get a couple from you. Mules were hybrids and people up to today are glad that they produced them. Obviously the hybrid wont please people as much as the mule but it is worth a shot. Plus you never know, they might not even breed so dont be so sure. 6.5 inches snout to vent is not that small but it is obviously not big. That does not make its genes any less strong than a sibling that was bigger than him. Ive hatched out tons of captive hatched panther chameleons that are that size, with full caps and others that are larger. Infact a lot of the smaller ones were equally if not more aggressive breeders, eaters, etc..than their larger clutch mates.

 

[Chris Anderson]

i dont 100% see whats wrong with crossing species. if its possible than they must not be far genetically beacuse usally males a females dont except genetic material from other species. If they do it usually wont make it vary far and will be still born or at the best steral(in order to prevent this species from becomenig viable) i dont really think these two would cross just by the way they look... mabey someone would clue me in on why hybrids are so wrong?

Just because two species are not genetically different enough to prevent them from successfully producing offspring does not make intentionally hybridizing them a good idea or indicate the presence of any benefit to doing so. Why risk the female being injured or dying, either by the male itself, being unable to lay the clutch, or from the stress and drain of producing a useless clutch of eggs, in the process of a stupid and pointless experiment?

You guys should give the guy a break. What if he wants to try a new thing. What if the results turn out a lot different than expected. I don't see the harm in this and i know that if you produced some of those than i would be one of the people to buy or get a couple from you. Mules were hybrids and people up to today are glad that they produced them. Obviously the hybrid wont please people as much as the mule but it is worth a shot. Plus you never know, they might not even breed so dont be so sure. 6.5 inches snout to vent is not that small but it is obviously not big. That does not make its genes any less strong than a sibling that was bigger than him. Ive hatched out tons of captive hatched panther chameleons that are that size, with full caps and others that are larger. Infact a lot of the smaller ones were equally if not more aggressive breeders, eaters, etc..than their larger clutch mates.

There is no benefit to any way this would end up. At best, the two chameleons ignore each other completely and nothing bad happens (still nothing beneficial from the entire attempt). At worst, it kills the female, produces a clutch of weak babies that suffer before they die, or produces a clutch of hybrids that survive and encourages others to act irresponsibly and do it themselves. People should be working to breed pure species, not screwing with trying to produce crap.

Also, while 6.5" SVL is not as small as was originally described, as a general comment, responsible breeders should not use animals for breeding that would not have the opportunity to breed in the wild due to their size, health and condition. Responsible breeders should be selecting the largest, strongest, most active and healthiest animals for breeding, not polluting the gene pool with weaker genes or offspring from weak parents.

Chris

 

[justjumpit621]

Just because two species are not genetically different enough to prevent them from successfully producing offspring does not make intentionally hybridizing them a good idea or indicate the presence of any benefit to doing so. Why risk the female being injured or dying, either by the male itself, being unable to lay the clutch, or from the stress and drain of producing a useless clutch of eggs, in the process of a stupid and pointless experiment?



There is no benefit to any way this would end up. At best, the two chameleons ignore each other completely and nothing bad happens (still nothing beneficial from the entire attempt). At worst, it kills the female, produces a clutch of weak babies that suffer before they die, or produces a clutch of hybrids that survive and encourages others to act irresponsibly and do it themselves. People should be working to breed pure species, not screwing with trying to produce crap.

Also, while 6.5" SVL is not as small as was originally described, as a general comment, responsible breeders should not use animals for breeding that would not have the opportunity to breed in the wild due to their size, health and condition. Responsible breeders should be selecting the largest, strongest, most active and healthiest animals for breeding, not polluting the gene pool with weaker genes or offspring from weak parents.

Chris

Calais though smaller than some is strong, active, healthy, and he is very friendly. His vet was pleasantly surprised at how healthy he was. Many people love him AND he is not pure. He came from a reputable breeder, and many of the sponsors of this site are breeding crossed locale panthers. Not that this is the same as breeding pardalis with lateralis but it is still considered "unpure" but in many peoples opinions well worth it. I was just wondering if it had been done and if it was even in fact possible. Not to start another "pure breeding" argument.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Calais though smaller than some is strong, active, healthy, and he is very friendly. His vet was pleasantly surprised at how healthy he was.

Which is why you'll note that I stated "[...]while 6.5" SVL is not as small as was originally described, as a general comment[...]". As you can read, I was making a general comment in response to other statements made in the thread, not making judgement about breeding your animal to conspecifics in particular.

Many people love him AND he is not pure. He came from a reputable breeder, and many of the sponsors of this site are breeding crossed locale panthers. Not that this is the same as breeding pardalis with lateralis but it is still considered "unpure" but in many peoples opinions well worth it. I was just wondering if it had been done and if it was even in fact possible. Not to start another "pure breeding" argument.

Hybridizing species and hybridizing locales of the same species are very different things. While I disagree with both, I am much more adamantly against intentionally hybridizing species and all the discussion thus far in this thread has been about that. There was no "pure breeding" argument, as least as far as locales are concerned, before your post, just pure breeding of species.

In the future, please be careful not to quote people out of context or put words into their mouth. In general, people don't appreciate it.

Chris

 

[lslcronk]

I think the main point that is being missed here is that:
Breeding of chameleons should be taken seriously. Period. If a person has not even attempted a regular 1 species breeding, has never once hatched a clutch of 1 species, has never reared healthy, viable, adorable babies of 1 species and successfully raised them to adulthood (or at least to 3 months when most ppl sell them) THEN that said person should probably not be attempting wierd "mad scientist" breeding of 2 species that we have no clue how the mating, laying, hatching should go. The well-being of the animals needs to be the main concern not how cool or "fun" it might be.

You should be really really experienced with breeding 1 species prior to attempting more difficult things. Start simple and work your way up. If you can be a responsible successful breeder with a stellar reputation for producing fantastic animals THEN and only then, consider the more exotic. Personally I think this should go for even crossing of 1 species with diff locales, let alone trying to hybridize and create a whole new creature. Anything less is irresponsible, plain and simple.

 

[eisentrauti]

Just because two species are not genetically different enough to prevent them from successfully producing offspring does not make intentionally hybridizing them a good idea or indicate the presence of any benefit to doing so. Why risk the female being injured or dying, either by the male itself, being unable to lay the clutch, or from the stress and drain of producing a useless clutch of eggs, in the process of a stupid and pointless experiment?

There is no benefit to any way this would end up. At best, the two chameleons ignore each other completely and nothing bad happens (still nothing beneficial from the entire attempt). At worst, it kills the female, produces a clutch of weak babies that suffer before they die, or produces a clutch of hybrids that survive and encourages others to act irresponsibly and do it themselves. People should be working to breed pure species, not screwing with trying to produce crap.

Also, while 6.5" SVL is not as small as was originally described, as a general comment, responsible breeders should not use animals for breeding that would not have the opportunity to breed in the wild due to their size, health and condition. Responsible breeders should be selecting the largest, strongest, most active and healthiest animals for breeding, not polluting the gene pool with weaker genes or offspring from weak parents.

Chris

Amen, Chris ! At least I'm not the only person with those thoughts