Found My Baby Unresponsive Tonight.

[alonnamarie2216]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Utu is a Panther Cameleon, she's a female with an attitude, she's about 3.5 years old. I've had since approx. 3 months old.
• Handling - I try not to handle her often, I handle her for about 15 minutes every few months but only if she's receptive to it.
• Feeding - She is fed crickets, mealworms, and horn worms. I feed her every other day. Usually around 15 crickets give or take. Dusting with Calcium, Calcium with D3 every third/fourth feeding, and reptivite about twice a month.
• Supplements - Please see previous, I got ahead of myself.
• Watering - I use a big dripper that drips all day, most in morning and again when I am home (I work overnights three nights a week.)
• Fecal Description - Last time she pooped it was large, brown, kind of slimy (she had eaten mealworms prior to, not usually overly slimy unless those are thrown in). She has not been eating recently.
• History - We've been through two egg layings with no issue. She's got an attitude for sure. LOOOOVES meal worms and hornworms even more. I got her from the dreaded Petco.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - I have her in a 24x24x48 your cage Reptibreeze screen cage.
• Lighting - I got my light setup from LYR (THEY ARE WONDERFUL) I have a 22" Arcadia 6% UVB bulb with a 6.5K Daylight bulb, and a 100 watt neodymium basking bulb in a large dome. Lights come on around 1pm and go off a little after 1am. (Due to me working overnights I keep her close to my waking schedule so I can keep an eye on her)
• Temperature - I keep her basking around mid 90's, cage floor would probably be close to 75. Lowest overnight temp is 70. I use a temperature prob and a thermometer/humidity gauge fixed on the back wall at middle height.
• Humidity - I keep humidity up with misting, live plants, and dripper going constantly. During the winter I put a humidifier directly next to her cage (South Dakota winter's will get cha). I use humidity gauge mentioned above. Usually around 70/80.
• Plants - She has a corn plant and a schefflera.
• Placement - Cage is in my room (I live in a one bedroom apartment), it's not super high traffic as I am not home all the time or in my room. I cover her at night or when she is showing signs of having eggs, if I am home so I don't disturb her. Cage is about 2.5 feet off of the ground (so the top of the cage is at about 5'6", taller than I am at 5'3"!). Vent is across the room.
• Location - Mentioned previously, South Dakota

Current Problem - I took Utu in to the vet on Friday as she has been digging for about two weeks but has not covered her holes, making me believe she's having issues laying. She hasn't been eating much, which is normal when she has eggs she's trying to lay. I decided it was time to take her in as I went to feel for eggs and she didn't get mad at me (see earlier mention of being little miss attitude). Doc looked her over said everything was looking very good. Ultrasounded her and had one small egg ready to go when she was bit wasn't concerned whatsoever. Said her vitamin A level was a little low, I mentioned to him she was due for a new UVB bulb, I just hadn't replaced it as to not disturb her egg laying at the current moment because it seemed Everytime I peeked on her she had her head down digging or her butt down. So I brought her home, changed the bulb since she was already disturbed for the day.

Fast forward to Sunday night (around 7pm). She was moving around. I pulled back the curtain to give her a little view for a bit as she was up at the top of the cage. I was getting ready for a BBQ, doing my makeup near her cage. I saw her fall off the vine but catch herself with her tail. Thought nothing of it as she likes to pull Evel Knievel moves every once in a great while. She usually pulls herself up and is good. I left the room for a while and came back and she was still upside down holding on with her tail. I figured well hell, I'll help you out quick. When I picked her up she was lifeless, unresponsive. I instantly started bawling and freaking out. I called the only emergency vet local and took her in. They checked her vitals and showed she had a low temp and very slow respirations. I thought she was dead y'all. I have never run out of my apartment building so quick in my life. I'm surprised I didn't get pulled over on the way there. I was questioning if i could give a chameleon CPR. Anyway they stuck her in the incubator and she came back. Oh Lord, she came back guys. He told me to give her a quarter of a tums with a mL of water 2-3 times a day. Keep her warm. And if she's not better by Tuesday to take her back to the exotic vet as he was not well versed in them but knew the basics. He's thinking very low calcium levels. He did an ultrasound and found two eggs jjjuuuuuuussstt beginning to form on her right side. Which also led him to believe the low calcium. I have her home now, have given two doses of tums, she's very unsteady and keeps falling. I have moved her to her starter cage (12x12x24) but have netted off a little above half way up her cage as she keeps falling. I don't want her hurt and am trying to keep her a little warmer as they said she started to become lethargic just in the time they took her out of the incubator for the ultrasound. Posting this at (4am).

Any advice, ideas?

I AM going to be on the safe side and will be taking her into the exoctic vet tomorrow so long as I can. I'm just looking to see what you guys have. I have included a photo of her that was taken about an hour ago.

Thank you in advance. I love our little Cham Fam we have here.

And sorry for any spelling mistakes. This was written on my phone.

 

[Angelwolf]

Following. I wish I could offer some advice, but I don't have any. So in lieu of advice, i will offer you both my prayers.

 

[Wowbango]

Her cask seems to be a little sunken in...she doesn't look terrible, but not 100% either.

#1, Chameleons should NEVER eat mealworms. GET RID OF THEM ASAP. They are too hard and can cause stomach issues for them. Switch to Silkworms or Superworms which are better for them.
#2 I don't believe 2 mistings a day is enough. A dripper will help, but panthers are also lappers, and will drink water from leaves. What is the color of the urates? I have a suspicion she's not hydrating well. I would STRONGLY recommend an automatic misting system, especially if you're away for so long. It's about $120 investment and completely worth it.
#3.the lighting is probably the biggest issue. You just CANNOT keep them "as close to your schedule" They should have 12 hours of light and 12 hours of night. They wake up soon as they see light, meaning she is not receiving UVB for several hours while she's awake, and then you're forcing her to receive UVB and light for several hours once she's supposed to be sleeping. This is likely stressing her a great deal. You have to adjust around them, not the other way around. If need be, you have to move her somewhere that your sleep schedules will not interfere with one another.

 

[alonnamarie2216]

I'm not sure you read that correctly. She is getting 12 hours on and 12 hours off and is very rarely disturbed in her off times. Her lights are on an automatic set up. She actually wakes before me and I don't turn the light on 90% of the time when I go home.

The dripper goes directly over a leaf which provides her with several lapping spots due to where my vines and leaves are set up.
I do have a misting system actually, I just have not been able to set it up quite yet.

Urates have always been nice and white, up until now, when this round of digging and eggs began.

Also, mealworms are generally only given as a treat now and again. Or when the darn petshop is out of crickets till the next day. This is not used as part of a staple diet.

 

[alonnamarie2216]

This is her on the normal.

 

[Wowbango]

My point is, you should not adjust your chameleon's day/night schedule to your own. That WILL stress your chameleon. Waiting until 1pm is A DEFINITE problem! You should set a timer for the lights, and set them to try and mimic sunrise and sunset (obviously we don't have 12 hours of daytime, but use sunrise as a starting point). I would try and set up the misting system as soon as you can as regular mistings will encourage them to drink and will help with her hydration.

Even as Treats, mealworms are a big no no for Chameleons. There are plenty of places online that you can find cheap feeders (ebay) like silkworms and superworms.

 

[alonnamarie2216]

Update from Exotic/Reptile vet:

Did a check and a blood test.
All is good outside of low proteins, which is common to happen when producing eggs. Got some stuff to give her to help. Doc is thinking she just was so low from not eating it started to cause problems.

My point is, you should not adjust your chameleon's day/night schedule to your own. That WILL stress your chameleon. Waiting until 1pm is A DEFINITE problem! You should set a timer for the lights, and set them to try and mimic sunrise and sunset (obviously we don't have 12 hours of daytime, but use sunrise as a starting point). I would try and set up the misting system as soon as you can as regular mistings will encourage them to drink and will help with her hydration.

Even as Treats, mealworms are a big no no for Chameleons. There are plenty of places online that you can find cheap feeders (ebay) like silkworms and superworms.

Won't it stress her out even more to switch to a different schedule after being on this one for pretty much her whole life? I could see this being an acceptable point if there was light coming in windows but there's not.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Update from Exotic/Reptile vet:

Did a check and a blood test.
All is good outside of low proteins, which is common to happen when producing eggs. Got some stuff to give her to help. Doc is thinking she just was so low from not eating it started to cause problems.




Won't it stress her out even more to switch to a different schedule after being on this one for pretty much her whole life? I could see this being an acceptable point if there was light coming in windows but there's not.

I was going to ask if this was an interior room, don’t know that it would make any difference. I wonder if chams can “adjust” to such a drastic departure from true nature...

 

[NDO]

I was going to ask if this was an interior room, don’t know that it would make any difference. I wonder if chams can “adjust” to such a drastic departure from true nature...

"True nature" meaning....Madagascar...? Becuase I'm quite positive that question answers itself, haha.

 

[alonnamarie2216]

I mean essentially. She wakes up when her lights come on and will usually tuck herself in about a half an hour/hour before her lights turn off. She has a few spots that she likes to sleep and sometimes she will cycle through them prior or the lights turning off to decide where to stay. She usually chooses the same one for a few days, then switches to another for a few days.

So I mean...she's obviously used to this schedule.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

"True nature" meaning....Madagascar...? Becuase I'm quite positive that question answers itself, haha.

I guess I could have worded that better...I wonder if they have the ability to adjust their internal clock, the one that nature has woven into their very fiber over millions of years of evolution. Like how we adjust to jet lag. I would think he could over time as long as he is never exposed to the outside world or any windows.

 

[Mawtyplant]

Said her vitamin A level was a little low, I mentioned to him she was due for a new UVB bulb

Quick info, UVB have nothing to do with vitamin A, she will need more vitamin A during eggs production because she put lot of vitamin A in the eggs for the baby :/ so you need too raise the amount of vitamin A, during gestation time (carefull Vit A is like Vit d3 and this can be toxic)

This is her on the normal.

I think i got a part of a "why this happened now" how many eggs she have laid previously? too me she look a bit overweighted :/ unfortunately an overweighted chameleon will produce large cluch and this is really expensive to produce a large cluch so she get exhausted by it and get stucked with.. next year if she survive you will have too slow down on the feeders (and on the worms because they are super fatty). raise the temperature again and try to give oral liquid calcium and serrapeptase (natural anti-inflamatory) but i dont know if your gonna be too late (ordering time i dont know if you can find this stuff close to your place pm me for a buying online place). She might also need privacy... and luck

 

[alonnamarie2216]

Quick info, UVB have nothing to do with vitamin A, she will need more vitamin A during eggs production because she put lot of vitamin A in the eggs for the baby :/ so you need too raise the amount of vitamin A, during gestation time (carefull Vit A is like Vit d3 and this can be toxic)



I think i got a part of a "why this happened now" how many eggs she have laid previously? too me she look a bit overweighted :/ unfortunately an overweighted chameleon will produce large cluch and this is really expensive to produce a large cluch so she get exhausted by it and get stucked with.. next year if she survive you will have too slow down on the feeders (and on the worms because they are super fatty). raise the temperature again and try to give oral liquid calcium and serrapeptase (natural anti-inflamatory) but i dont know if your gonna be too late (ordering time i dont know if you can find this stuff close to your place pm me for a buying online place). She might also need privacy... and luck

Okaaaayyyy....vet mentioned taking her into sun, I just mentioned her bulbs needed replacing. Said it would help.

Your message is kind of hard to follow.
Previously I want to say she's laid around 15-20 eggs.
I don't understand the stucked with part.
Next year?

Worms she gets maaaaaaybe once a month.
Otherwise it's crickets every other day. As mentioned, around 10-15ish. Assuming she eats them all and they don't escape.

Raise the temperature again? What exactly do you mean?

She gets nothing but privacy, especially when she has eggs.

I would imagine the main issue right now is she has not been eating anything while also attempting to produce eggs.

 

[Mawtyplant]

Okaaaayyyy....vet mentioned taking her into sun, I just mentioned her bulbs needed replacing. Said it would help.

Your message is kind of hard to follow.
Previously I want to say she's laid around 15-20 eggs.
I don't understand the stucked with part.
Next year?

Worms she gets maaaaaaybe once a month.
Otherwise it's crickets every other day. As mentioned, around 10-15ish. Assuming she eats them all and they don't escape.

Raise the temperature again? What exactly do you mean?

She gets nothing but privacy, especially when she has eggs.

I would imagine the main issue right now is she has not been eating anything while also attempting to produce eggs.

Hmm.. is your message is something passive-agressive? because it sound like it.. sorry maybe i need more coffe right now to follow you but it sound harsh (but i can be wrong)

yes its a good new to bring your chameleon to the sun but this wil cause more manipulation (that what i tell by privacy maybe.. so you should consider a new uvb asap not for vitamin A but for vitamin D3.. so now you want to raise the vitamin A level because this can cause muscular problem too..

Raise the temperature again? What exactly do you mean? : maybe add a second basking spot? so she can choose

15-20 is ok it's quite simple .. the number of eggs that a cameleon will produce depends on several factors such as the bioavailability of the food in its environment, the more food there is, the more the number of eggs will be raised and badly the more eggs there are, the harder it will be to lay eggs, so a cameleon that is over-fed (as your, adult only need about 5 feeders a day every other day) has a much higher risk of dying from egg retention (that what i mean with I don't understand the stucked with part) if she can't lay the egg she will die with the eggs because they get stucked inside this i a really common cause of death with the female in captivity :/

This is why i suggest you the serrapeptase

also, im francophone, English is my second language so if something sound weird too you of if it does make sens please tell me what part to clarify

how is she today?

 

[alonnamarie2216]

I apologize if it sounds that way. I think sometimes my RBF even transpires through text.
I did replace her bulbs that day (Friday)!


I do understand the fat/more eggs. The research I had done said about 10 every other day for her.

Holding eggs is what I originally took her in for on Friday actually. But ultrasound showed one egg ready, which she actually said Saturday. So, back story. On Friday doc didn't actually run a blood test, he went off of his own knowledge.
Blood test run on Monday showed low proteins. Vitamins and calcium were good.

She is not up for the day yet today but yesterday she was a little stronger.
She's learning my tricks for getting her to open up for her "medication". Doc gave me some supplement to combat the whole...not eating thing. Thus giving low proteins.
I made it through not getting bit till yesterday.
She thinks she is awfully tough.

I'm just so worried. She's my baby and we've never had any issues.
It's been a rough past week. On Monday after having her in the vet as I was pulling out of the vet I must have had my mind on her and not the large sign pole that I backed into. So to add to the $400 I've spent trying to save her life and make her well, I'll now be spending $1k on my dumb mistake. That could also be why I may have sounded as such too. My apologies.

 

[Mawtyplant]

I apologize if it sounds that way. I think sometimes my RBF even transpires through text.
I did replace her bulbs that day (Friday)!


I do understand the fat/more eggs. The research I had done said about 10 every other day for her.

Holding eggs is what I originally took her in for on Friday actually. But ultrasound showed one egg ready, which she actually said Saturday. So, back story. On Friday doc didn't actually run a blood test, he went off of his own knowledge.
Blood test run on Monday showed low proteins. Vitamins and calcium were good.

She is not up for the day yet today but yesterday she was a little stronger.
She's learning my tricks for getting her to open up for her "medication". Doc gave me some supplement to combat the whole...not eating thing. Thus giving low proteins.
I made it through not getting bit till yesterday.
She thinks she is awfully tough.

I'm just so worried. She's my baby and we've never had any issues.
It's been a rough past week. On Monday after having her in the vet as I was pulling out of the vet I must have had my mind on her and not the large sign pole that I backed into. So to add to the $400 I've spent trying to save her life and make her well, I'll now be spending $1k on my dumb mistake. That could also be why I may have sounded as such too. My apologies.

Outch :/ i feel your pain my first chameleon cost me a lot of stress time and vet money. Small tip if you want i usually give any oral medication just before the bed time.

you should cut the feeders for the futur, because i optimistic and she will live! (10 is the number of feeders i give to my melleri.. they are 550 grams)

maybe you can try to dig a spot during the night for your girl, is she is exausted maybe she will accept your discret help (and think she dig it last night it work once for one of my girl)

wish you the best

 

[alonnamarie2216]

It's funny you mention that because when she acts like she's getting eggs I will stick my thumb in the dirt as far down as I can to show her, "Hey, this stuff is good to go!" And she will usually chooses those spots!

Right now she is weak still. Still falling so I have her in her starter cage with a net to catch her towards the top of the cage till she is more steady. Otherwise four foot is a long drop when you're dropping almost every time you're trying to walk on a vine.

She's looking stronger again today. The "medicone" I'm giving her is a meal replacement basically so I've been giving one in the morning and one about an hour or two before bed.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Syreptyon]

Poor little girl! Glad to hear things are looking up, I hope she recovers her strength with haste