Food for Thought

[mczoo]

Answer from my vet

Spoke to my vet today (took in stool samples and questions about my one chams health eveything checked out). I particularly discussed references including Mader, and Fry (books he likes) and opened a discussion of Vitamin A preformed or Beta carotene. His answer was not a suprise. no definitive research has been done to his knowledge and in these scenarios following the Husbandry of sucessful keepers particularly those who have raised and bred sucessive generation without problems diagnosed as high or low vitamin A would be the best source. Although some may consider it anecdotal I believe this may be our best answer for now (unless some one wants to donate 36 males/36 females or so chams that i could separate as sibling matches, breed with and without preformed Vit A and check back with you all in 4-5 years any excuse to get more chams LOL)

That being said might a poll of site members with breeding experience for lets say 5 years or so (or divided by experience and yes/no answers) about pre-formed vitamin A use be in order?

Unfortunately recommended daily doses and species might complicate this but its a start.

Thanks for all your imput,

Sean

 

[mika]

no definitive research has been done to his knowledge

I'm not sure I understand, is your vet saying there was no research done on whether chameleons need preformed Vit A?

or is he saying Beta Carotene?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

no definitive research has been done to his knowledge and in these scenarios following the Husbandry of sucessful keepers particularly those who have raised and bred sucessive generation without problems diagnosed as high or low vitamin A would be the best source.

I don't think I understand, either. Could you break that sentence down a bit Sean?

Are you saying the best thing to do is: find keepers who have tracked their animals' vitamin A levels and found them to always be within normal range. Then, find out what that keeper feeds his animals, and exactly how he/she gutloads and supplements. And then copy that keeper's protocol?

 

[mika]

This is what Dr. Ferguson said on the article I referenced in my first response:

"Ferguson: My experience has been primarily with panther chameleons, which have been the subject of numerous research projects in my laboratory of Texas Christian University since 1988.

The main abnormalities have been symptoms of hypovitaminosis in captive-born individuals whose diets did not include sufficient preformed vitamin A (retinol or retinyl esters).

Oddly, despite the dogma outlined in question #1 above, high amounts of Beta Carotene and an accompanying grain diet low in preformed vitamin A did not prevent the onset of symptoms of hypovitaminosis A.

These symptoms could be relieved with oral doses of over-the-counter "vitamin A" supplements (probably retinyl palmitate) suspended in vegetable oil.

Whether and under what conditions panther chameleons can "do the vertebrate thing" and convert carotenoids to usable vitamin A in their gut needs to be investigated experimentally."

This article from the Chameleon Information Network dated 2003, Mader's book in 2006 all suggest the same thing.

 

[mczoo]

Success needs definition

I don't think I understand, either. Could you break that sentence down a bit Sean?

Are you saying the best thing to do is: find keepers who have tracked their animals' vitamin A levels and found them to always be within normal range. Then, find out what that keeper feeds his animals, and exactly how he/she gutloads and supplements. And then copy that keeper's protocol?

What i was suggesting is look at people who have been successfully raising and reproducing chameleons in captivity for 5 or more years. Do they all add vitamin A preformed or not. if it is possible to raise them without it and no adverse effects maybe its not needed.
if no one has done it without preformed A then find out what the lowest successful dose for each species has been and use it.

measuring levels would be difficult because you would need to know what normal is for the healthiest chameleons. This could only be measured over time. Vit A levels would be the wrong goal IMHO

Essentially my point can be likened to blood pressure in humans. We know that the lower your blood pressure the longer you live on average. Several years ago we created drugs called calcium channel blockers to lower blood pressure and they did a great job. Unfortunately they did not prove to extend life just lowered blood pressure. In fact the likely had the opposite result as desired. The problem with this scenario was our goal was longer life.....we saw those with lower Blood pressure lived longer....but only if reached in the correct way.....i could cut off your arm and that would lower your blood pressure immediately but longevity would be reduced.

so whats my point? The endpoint (a healthy long lived successfully reproducing cham) should be our goal not particular blood level. The only way to find that is to follow those with "success" and see what they did

Man that was long winded

I hope i stayed on topic

Sean

i believe my vet felt the topic of ability to transform beta carotene into vitamin A and supplimentation amounts were not written in stone yet and i shoould look to the experienced owners for guidence until better info is available

 

[mika]

I think everyone's goal is to have "a healthy long lived successfully reproducing cham"

There are many factors involved in a chameleons life span.

One for instance involves reproduction, the more the females produce, the shorter their life spans are.

What I want to learn on this thread is whether we need or not need vit a in order to prevent hypovitaminosis A.

In my opinion, this is ONE of the many factors that is associated with a chams life span.

It's like in humans, we all want to live long healthy lives. When something ails us, we go to the doctor & they check what? If were deficient here, lacking something here.. etc..

They get a sample of our blood to check if it's normal so in essence, they base it on what the normal level is to find out if something is abnormal

I dunno if I'm making any sense at all.

 

[mika]

i believe my vet felt the topic of ability to transform beta carotene into vitamin A and supplimentation amounts were not written in stone yet and i shoould look to the experienced owners for guidence until better info is available

Right, that is what Ferguson said, it is unknown whether chams can transform beta carotene into Vit A.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

The main abnormalities have been symptoms of hypovitaminosis in captive-born individuals whose diets did not include sufficient preformed vitamin A (retinol or retinyl esters).

Sorry if this sounds rude: but we get that. It is the AMOUNT of preformed vitamin A that is considered sufficient that is in question, NOT whether or not they need any.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Alrighty,

I think that I have answered most, if not all, of Mika’s questions regarding Vitamin A. Please know that it is difficult to know how to phrase some of this because we are getting into this topic at a very scientific level. As I am unaware of the levels to which the readers have been educated on chemistry, metabolism, and other sciences, I have stated the following information in such a way that should be comprehensible to all, regardless of their education status. Please do not regard this as patronizing as I have no intention, whatsoever, of making anyone feel that way. And if you have any questions regarding the clarity, do not hesitate to ask.

As always, this is my personal opinion on the topic. I continue to encourage questions, comments, etc as this is in no way the “say-all, end-all” on chameleon nutrition.

1. “Types” of vitamin A.
Vitamin A is actually a group of chemical compounds that have very specific structures. When talking about pre-formed vitamin A, you are actually referring to a subgroup of chemicals known as retinoids, of which retinyl palmitate is a member. The other half of the group of vitamin A is a second subgroup of chemicals called carotenoids.
Fish oil is not a vitamin, but it is a good source of the vitamin for humans. Fish oil is not exclusively composed of vitamin A, either. In fact, vitamins E and D, DHA, EPA (omega-3 fatty acids), and more comprise the oil. In pill and capsule forms, a binder is usually added to help keep all of those lovely chemicals together.

2. What does excess fish oil do to humans?
First of all, now that you know that fish oil is composed of many chemicals, you can probably imagine that excess amounts of fish oil would likely result in excess amounts of those chemicals, possibly to toxic levels depending on the amount of excess consumed. This is generally not a problem as human consumption of strictly fish oil is rare as far as percentages go. I will gladly go over what excess fatty acids and other vitamins would do, but because I doubt most people on the forum would be interested, we can discuss that personally if you are.

3. Concerning the frequency of small lizard/mammal consumption.
Chameleons are classified as insectivores. This indicates, that while it is not outside of their realm to consume larger prey, it is not frequent or essential to their life. I would venture to say that it is likely the consumption of these larger prey that would be more common during breeding season to help the females increase their vitamin pools for eggs.

4. Regarding body mechanisms of humans and chameleons.
Obviously there are some major differences between the two classes of creatures. However, the mechanism of action for chemical reactions remains dependant on the compounds present, not generally the location of the reaction. We do sometimes find differences between in vitro and in vivo studies which suggests that there may be a small importance on location depending on the reaction. In this case, the esterification or reduction of retinyl esters is more dependent on the presence of specific enzymes and furthermore depends on whether or not chameleons’ chromosomes house the gene for the production of the enzyme that is needed for the conversion of carotenoids to retinoids. It appears that regardless of whether or not they have this enzyme, they are getting the vitamin from somewhere. In the wild, no one is there to inject or orally administer the vitamin, and as stated above for number three we do not have definitive data regarding the frequency of large prey consumption. The success of breeders without providing this type of prey, as well as the chameleon classification, indicate that the larger prey is not essential.

5. Proper gut-loading.
The article offered for suggested reading is a very good one, but should be read with a critical eye with an understanding of clinical trials. They found problems with chameleons when the crickets were not properly gut-loaded, when the cricket was purchased from pet stores and fed-off with a virtually empty stomach. Proper gut-loading includes: sweet potatoes, fresh greens, carrots, rolled oats, apples, ground legumes, oranges, corn meal, etc. The diets that resulted in low amounts of vitamin A were virtually all grain. Grains contain low amounts of carotenoids in general, let alone virtually no retinoids. Chicken feed, which is used by many breeders, contains low-ish amounts of preformed vitamin A. If your crickets are gut-loaded with this feed and then fed to your chameleon who is being administered additional amounts of retinyl palmitate, you could very easily be overdosing your pet. Before making decisions regarding the use of any vitamin, please know exactly what you are feeding your pet and how much.

6. Regarding supplementation for wild-caught chameleons.
35 chameleons in my care are wild-caught and do NOT receive additional vitamin A supplementation. They receive the same care as the captive-bred chameleons do (except in the case of medication for worms and other parasites).

7. How many chameleons have I handled?
42
(continued)

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

8. What do I say about the “Bongo” article?
Even the article Mika recommended reading states the following, “Treatment should be initiated conservatively. Panther chameleons should require about 1-2IU per gram [of body weight] given as a weekly oral dose OR fed weekly diets of gut-loaded crickets that contain 50-100IU/g of preformed vitamin A.” Knowing that the people who wrote these articles and books have had a lot of experience handling chameleons, but have the same amount of actual research at their hands, I would say that their recommendation is sound, but just as well-informed as mine, which is a bit more conservative, at merely 1-2IU/wk given as a bi-annual dosage.

9. Vitamin deficiencies are NOT selective to a specific eye. ALL research, that I have read, regarding the expression of VAD (vitamin A deficiency) state that a deficiency of vitamin A affects both eyes, first as night blindness, and potentially permanent blindness and scarring. Before affecting the eyes, VAD usually expresses itself as anorexia and dry skin (or as in the case for chameleons: excessive shedding). If your chameleon has one eye closed, I would guess that it is not VAD, but more likely conjunctivitis from a localized infection. These infections tend to be common for animals in captivity, especially in cases where cages are not cleaned daily. These infections, treated with medications such as Fortaz, generally subside very quickly. As for the second part of this loaded question that you asked me, do I think they’re wrong? They could be. It’s very possible, just as it is possible that I am wrong. I am not here to prove anyone wrong or right, I am here to offer a well-educated view on a topic that had been discussed on this forum by far too many people who did not even understand what vitamin A is or what it does in their own bodies let alone in their chameleons. The topic is, and as someone else said, will continue to be controversial until we are willing to do long-term clinical studies on CB and WC chameleons.

Dave Weldon brought another great view to the table. In a very nicely composed position, he brought citations from text. These texts are not only well known, but have excellent reputations. I commend you, Dave, for your willingness to thoroughly read and report back to us on your findings. As the ever-skeptical person that I have been trained to be, I must question the authority of those authors on the topic. Not that they are incorrect or that they are not well qualified, but rather that their information comes from the same level of educated conclusion that mine does. Again, without very strict clinical trials, a mere case study or even an observational study cannot tell us the entire story. That being said, I am always open to other views and I strongly believe that the view presented by Dave Weldon is a very well educated and researched view that should be considered by caretakers before making a decision on supplementation for their own pets.

Dave, on that note, you had said “37.5IU orally” as a recommended dose. What did you find was the frequency of this dosage? Daily, weekly, monthly, etc? As for the comment regarding the lack of liver for crickets, there is research that suggests that arthropods can convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters despite their very different bodies. They still possess the gene that produces an enzyme that symmetrically cleaves carotenoids for use as vitamin A. Because the cleavage is not complete, the absorption by animals that consume these arthropods either must possess the genes, and thus enzymes to complete the cleavage or they have reduced absorption and therefore exhibit signs of VAD. This indicates that the requirement for proformed vitamin A is much higher than that of preformed vitamin A to achieve the same results. In layman’s terms: gut-loading crickets with grain or carrots alone will not produce enough beta-carotene to be absorbed and used effectively by the chameleon. Thus either a SMALL dose of preformed vitamin A can be administered (and you all have already heard several view points regarding the amount) OR the crickets and other insects can be gut-loaded with chicken feed, containing small amounts of preformed vitamin A AND carrots, etc that contain average amounts of beta-carotene. THEREFORE: if you are already gut-loading your feeders properly, additional vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate may be dangerous, especially when the amounts recommended are so difficult to determine.
10. Mika, you asked about your 3000 IU – is that the amount of an entire dropper or the amount that you are giving?
11. Proper gut-load vs proper cages.
You are so right! So many people are so misinformed. As chameleon lovers, it is our job to inform others of what we know. If you are ever unsure of what you do or what someone else does, please ask, as this forum allows, others who have been successful with their keeping.

12. Synthetic?
Retinyl palmitate is a member of the retinoid group I spoke of in the beginning of this response. It is usually found in food sources and can be purified or left as is. Retinyl palmitate is more shelf-stable than the other retinyl esters and therefore is used commonly in pharmaceutical preparations. Synthetic means that the compound was derived in a lab. This is the same exact compound as one extracted from a food source and acts no differently in the body. Retinol, which is used by the body, still needs to be released from the fatty acid ester compound via cleavage and reduction. Varying enzymes, transcribed by specific genes, control these reactions. The jury is still out on whether or not chameleons possess the genes, and therefore enzymes required to mediate the aforementioned reactions.

As said before, by many, it seems to be the dosing that is most confusing and inconclusive. I feel better knowing the general chameleon public is much better equipped to make their own decisions regarding the use of vitamin A. I, personally, do not believe that any one author that has posted has provided a better (let alone best) post than any other. I think the two main contributors have been quite qualified to respond. I think those who asked questions are essential to threads like this one. The input from everyone is much appreciated, and I believe we can all agree that we’ve walked away from this discussion with new ammunition for the battle that is our pets’ health.

Emil,
Your comment was very well put. As Mika said, big businesses do tend to say anything to get people to buy their products, but they do have reputations to protect. They generally follow major trends and published research before producing products for pet store shelves. For the average chameleon keeper, who is buying crickets from pet stores for their one or two pets, supplementation may be necessary, or at least beneficial. As more is learned, we may soon find this product in amounts more appropriate for reptile consumption in our pet stores. For the breeder or large caretaker, who is personally gut-loading their feeders (not merely dusting) with both carotenoids and small amounts of preformed vitamin A/retinoids (as earlier discussed), additional supplementation is probably not necessary.

Remember, if you choose to supplement, amounts are important. Keep a close watch on your pet. There are no established recommendations, which is why this thread even began. Dave found some good research. Even the two main articles discussed in this thread are contradictory to each other, as is the case with most research. My recommendation is, if you choose to supplement, provide about 12IU per year OR about 15-30% of a vitamin A capsule (10,000IU – if the capsule is actually fish oil, please consider switching, we have not discussed the impact of omega-3 fatty acids on chameleons yet, but EPA and DHA may already be produced by their bodies). The recommendations depend on the species, age, and size of your chameleon, as well as what he or she is being fed on a regular basis.

Thank you, again!
Stacey

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Sean,

Rock on, man! In my own convoluted way, I think that is what I have been trying to say: success has indicated that extra vitamin A supplementation isn't needed for good healthy long lives. Care and attention to detail seem to work well for us here at Clean Line Chameleons. We have always gone above and beyond with our pets here, and they're all doing really well. I am sure many members of this forum have found methods that work for them, too.

Nice post, and I don't think your post was long-winded at all, hahaha!

Again, with fullest sincerity,
Stacey

 

[mika]

Sorry if this sounds rude: but we get that. It is the AMOUNT of preformed vitamin A that is considered sufficient that is in question, NOT whether or not they need any.

That was in response to mczoo's 1st thread. I thought his vet was saying otherwise so I posted it.

Thank you, thank you, Stacey for responding back & being patient with the questions I had.

I only actually asked questions on half of what you posted on the 1st thread so hopefully this response of yours will answer the others

I just looked at it quickly and it was pretty long.. so I have not read it thoroughly. It looks like great information.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

It's cool, take your time. I'm glad you stayed invested even though it took me so long to reply. And thanks for clarifying: I really wasn't trying to be rude, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Happy reading, everyone!

-Stacey

 

[mika]

It's cool, take your time. I'm glad you stayed invested even though it took me so long to reply. And thanks for clarifying: I really wasn't trying to be rude, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Happy reading, everyone!

-Stacey

Stacey, when I first responded to your thread all I wanted to know is whether or not we need to supplement with Vit A in the form of retinyl palmitate?

I wasn't questioning the dosage.

To make this short & sweet, do you think chams need preformed or not?

I promise to read the whole thread you just posted, but my son's gonna wake up in a few minutes..

And no worries, I'm not speaking to you face to face so I don't read up on emotions on these threads.

 

[dodolah]

Wow, what a great post.
Stacey, thanks for supplying us with great info.
But, as someone who is uneducated in the scientific field, those numbers become quite ambiguous pretty soon.

I actually am familiar with the dosage of 50 IU suspended in vegetable oil recommendation (as I have access to thesis done by Dr. Ferguson and Prof. Larry Talent).

But, how the heck we measure IU is it a drop? a teaspoon D hyperbole here)? I asked this once in the forum only to get more confusion at the end.
Is there some kind of tool that accurately measure IU?
If we are getting the retinol from over the counter, since most are for human consumption purpose, how we can be sure that whatever we are supplying will not be too much or too less? (If we decided to supply this vit via supplementation than gutload).

Thanks

 

[Dave Weldon]

...Do you discuss pages from the books you've read in your meetings?...

Howdy Mika,

I usually bring some of my books as reference material for questions that pop-up at the meetings. The big Mader book is one that I almost always bring with me .

 

[mika]

Howdy Mika,

I usually bring some of my books as reference material for questions that pop-up at the meetings. The big Mader book is one that I almost always bring with me .

I'm gonna have to take a day off then & attend one of your meetings

 

[mczoo]

IU's

from Dodolah

But, how the heck we measure IU is it a drop? a teaspoon ( hyperbole here)? I asked this once in the forum only to get more confusion at the end.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Learn more about citing Wikipedia •Jump to: navigation, search
In pharmacology, the International Unit is a unit of measurement for the amount of a substance, based on measured biological activity or effect. "International Unit" is abbreviated as IU, or as UI from the French unité internationale, or as IE from the German Internationale Einheit.

The unit is used for vitamins, hormones, some medications, vaccines, blood products, and similar biologically active substances. Despite its name, the IU is not part of the International System of Units used in physics and chemistry.

The precise definition of one IU differs from substance to substance and is established by international agreement for each substance. There is no equivalence among different substances; for instance, one IU of vitamin E does not contain the same number of milligrams as one IU of vitamin A.

To define an IU of a substance, the Committee on Biological Standardization of the World Health Organization provides a reference preparation of the substance, arbitrarily sets the number of IUs contained in that preparation, and specifies a biological procedure to compare other preparations of that substance to the reference preparation. The goal in setting the standard is that different preparations with the same biological effect will contain the same number of IUs.

For some substances, the equivalent mass of one IU is later established. If that happens, the former IU definition for that substance is officially abandoned, in favor of a newly established weight. However, the unit count often remains in use nevertheless, because it is convenient. For example, vitamin E exists in a number of different forms, all having different biological activities. Rather than specifying the precise type and mass of vitamin E in a preparation, for the purposes of pharmacology it is sufficient, simply, to specify the number of IUs of vitamin E.

The mass equivalents of 1 IU for selected substances are:

Insulin: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of about 45.5 μg pure crystalline insulin (1/22 mg exactly)
Vitamin A: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of 0.3 μg retinol, or of 0.6 μg beta-carotene
Vitamin C: 1 IU is 50 μg L-ascorbic acid
Vitamin D: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of 0.025 μg cholecalciferol/ergocalciferol
Vitamin E: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of about 0.667 mg d-alpha-tocopherol (2/3 mg exactly), or of 1 mg of dl-alpha-tocopherol acetate

doesnt answer question but explains the issues with iu. a liquid vitamin would likely have the IU per ml listed

for example childrens polyvisol has 1500 IU of Vitamin A per 1ml (lots more stuff in there also)

maybe we could use it without the iron. i do not have any here but maybe 1/30ml could be measured with a tb syringe by adding 1 part vitamin 2 parts water and using 0.1ml

wow thats small

Sean

Hope this helps

Sean

 

[Dave Weldon]

...Dave, on that note, you had said “37.5IU orally” as a recommended dose. What did you find was the frequency of this dosage? Daily, weekly, monthly, etc?...

Howdy Stacey,

That "37.5 IU" dose was quoted straight out of the book. The footnote on that sentence was linked to research by Ferguson, Jones, Gehrmann: "Indoor husbandry of the panther chameleon - effects of dietary vitamins A and D and ultraviolet radiation on pathology and life history traits" Zoo Biol 15:279 1996

I can only surmise that it was a daily dose .


"Recommended dietary levels: Dusts providing up to 60 IU/g dry matter or 5-9 IU/g cricket dry matter."

I think what is being said is that for every "DM" dry matter gram of crickets (now go find out how much dry matter is in a typical cricket ) there should always be 5-9 IU of vitamin A with it. This, of course, leaves the keeper with several puzzle pieces to sort out. If you really wanted to measure a 10 IU dose out of a 10,000 IU gelcap then you are talking about 1/1000 of a gelcap . You might as well poke a hole in the gelcap and wave it near a cricket and let it breath-in the vitamin A vapor . All kidding aside, this is where I glaze-over and punt with a tiny drop-sized dose every month or two and cross my fingers . If that sounds to you like I'm experimenting with vitamin A for my chameleons, I think you're right .

 

[Chameleon Company]

Had a few other communications to take care of, but have a few more minutes now to add some info and calrify a few points.

Regarding the "75%" diagnosis frequency. That is our approximate experience once we've been able to eliminate, or significantly reduce, the number of other likely explanations. And, in our view, Vitamin A deficiency occurs far more often than conjuntivitus in explaining the observation of a single-eye problem in an otherwise healthy appearing animal. Yes Stacey, it will soon manifest in both eyes.

We have also found that all attempts to deliver satisfactory quantities of Vitamin A via gutload are futile. It introduces too many variables, not the least of which is "was the cricket eaten promptly after being gutloaded with Vitmain A". Many of my customer hobbyists, who have the time to hand-feed on occasion, have successfully swabbed a smear of oil on a crickets back, and then had it plucked directly by their chameleon. We swab directly into the chamleon's mouth here with Q-tips, paying attention to the concentration of the Vitamin A, so as to administer between 100-200 iu's per 100g of chameleon every 2 weeks. Its an inexact science.

A huge word of caution regarding giving your chameleon anything "oil". BTW Stacey, this is not trying to "sound more experienced than my competition" etc ... and in fact, I have shared this with much of my "competition". Chameleons will take many things orally. Quantities of oil more than a drop or so, much less 2-3, they will respond to very negatively. As with all Vitamin A in oil, we only want to leave behind a fraction of a drop, perhaps 1/20th, depending on the product, and this is OK. But should you have occasion to work with other oils, or feel the urge to get carried away, think twice. Regardless of the potential for excessive vitamin doses in toxic ranges, just the oil in 1 or greater drop quantities can cause severe distress. For example, 1 or more drops of any oil (vegetable, fish oil, etc) in an adult chameleon's mouth will induce vomiting in approx 20-35% of the animals dosed. Of those that show violent reactions, such as vomiting, approximately 20% will die within 30 minutes. We believe its by complications due to oil inhalation.

Let me state for those who are combing the books looking to validate my observations; 1) We do not repeat this test yearly to see if our percentages still hold up; and 2) The point is not the percentages, but to get the warning out. Am I wrong by 50% ? Run your own tests and let me know . Thanks in advance.