Fogging

[pasquel2012]

So helpful!!!

I may not be misting long enough. My longest mist is 30 seconds. But I set that in the summer months and I did not realize the drop in humidity that happened in the fall in our region. I thought it was just humid year round .

Is your hygrometer waterproof? If so, which brand is it? Part of my concern was that my humidity measurements weren’t accurate because the hygrometer is at the top corner of the enclosure where it is definitely the least humid through the night.

 

[pasquel2012]

@jamest0o0 nailed it. It's very true that we all just sort of work off the basics of husbandry, and then tweek it so that it works for the owners climate/home. That you care so much about them and took the time to thoroughly research them, speaks volumes!

You can also give them hornworms and silkworms to hydrate them.

I'm in Canada myself, but a few recommend US feeder sites are:
https://dragonhoppers.com/
https://joshsfrogs.com/
http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/page/397479218

And site sponsors:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/sponsors/?tag=food



I personally mist 15 minutes before lights out, it gives them time to drink and clean before finding a place to settle down for the night. Most times when it gets dark they're first priority is finding a place to sleep. I use a Wi-Fi thermometer/hydrometer. It helps keep track of everything, so I know how to adjust my mister for the season. These are my current settings:
Misting: 6:30 is the night time mist, when I'm home I hand mist for the night, otherwise it's set to go for 5min. This gives them enough time to trigger wanting to drink from the drips.
View attachment 367283

This is the moisture/temperature result: It's slightly mid-cage, so the basking area is about 2-3c hotter. I also used a wired heat/hydrometer in the basking area to make sure it's just right.
View attachment 367285

My max humidity is only getting to 81 % since the seasons have changed.

 

[ehdee6]

Is your hygrometer waterproof? If so, which brand is it?

It is waterproof! It's actually meant for green houses, but works fantastically for the cage. Mine is an old version of this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-...tion-Greenhouse/dp/B0B4RXTFTG?ref_=ast_sto_dp

 

[pasquel2012]

It is waterproof! It's actually meant for green houses, but works fantastically for the cage. Mine is an old version of this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-...tion-Greenhouse/dp/B0B4RXTFTG?ref_=ast_sto_dp

Thank you!!! I just ordered it. That way I won’t have to worry my readings are correct. I’ve been measuring from the closer to the top of the enclosure but he sleeps near the bottom.

 

[ehdee6]

I should add that the ad says it's not waterproof; but mine gets heavily sprayed and hasn't failed me yet! I think they mean more so, don't drop it fully in the sink for 10 min and expect it to work again...

Having it mid-cage will totally give you a better idea of the humidity. The ones I keep outside the cages are usually about 5-10% less than the ones in the cage. Just to give you an idea of the difference.

 

[DocZ]

I am a fogger fan. I like the morning and evening mist, but I’ve kept Chams with no mister, only nighttime fog and a dosing pump used for a dripper a few times per day
There is some small studies looking at fogging at night and following the animals weight
Why do you weigh yourself in the morning? Because you lost weight overnight breathing off water weight. Warm humid air out, cool dry air in out. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon so you are losing grams with every breath at night because you don’t eat or drink to replace it
The study showed no weight loss or even gain in Chams while breathing fog at night vs those that did not who lost measurable weight. Is it proof? Maybe not, but it is evidence that they are likely acquiring water weight at night = hydration

I like providing all opportunities for hydration. Mister morning and bedtime, fog at night, dripper a few times during the day. If they are drinking give them some water. Kidney disease is probably the primary or secondary problem of most of the diseases we see in lizards, and hydration makes kidneys happy

 

[DocZ]

https://www.monkfieldreptile.com/SS...ty/Chameleon-Hydration-Utilising-Fog-2020.pdf

 

[Sticktongue]

Docs last reply is 100% spot on! I am glad you brought up the point about weighing chameleons in the wild at sun down, and re weighing the same animals before sun up and they found they gain weight. The only explanation to that is taking in water.

I go about it the same as Doc I kept chameleons for years pre fog days, and misted a lot during the day. It is much harder to keep a chameleon in a bioactive setup that way. You’re going to have a lot more water to drain from misting, than you will from fogging. I think fogging is a great additive when doing bioactive.

The last two years, I have been heavily fogging. 6-8 hours of fog, with a 1 min mist at lights out, and 1 min about 30 min after lights on.

For my Jackson, his urates are good with that schedule. However, every few weeks or so I offer him (just yesterday) a 5 min mist session in the afternoon and he will drink and shoot his tongue at water droplets.

My Kinyongia Boehmei… I’ve had this pair since March and have seen them drink 0 times. I am positive they get all of their hydration from fog. Their cages are in my office so I watch them a lot. Again, zero leaf licking. 90-99% humidity at night.

So!!! I believe you’re on the the right. I believe fogging is a great way to hydrate. Fog is definitely a way they hydrate in the Wild, and likely the main way. But, it is definitely OK to mist during the day too, and don’t worry you see them drink. You don’t need to stress about that. Just make sure if you’re fogging, you’ve got things sealed up enough to get a build up in the cage, and you’ve got low enough temps. Petrs videos and write ups about never seeing a chameleon in the wild not drink shouldn’t be discounted. The guy has spent an incredible amount of time observing wild chameleon while majority of us will only dream about doing that.

Here is the deal. James isn’t wrong, what Chameleon Academy and Neptune say is not 100% gospel, nor do they try and portray that. Bill is extremely clear they are guidelines and each person has to fine tune what works for them in their environment. BUT!! Being a new person. Be very carful with getting on here and posting and then taking the answers and trying to hybrid and panicking. It’s clear you’ve still got the new keeper fears and that’s ok . When you’re new to anything, it’s best to find a mentor or two and follow their instructions. Once you have some traction and your own experience, that’s when you can start taking others advice, comparing it to what you know works for you and finding your own path. When you do your homework like you have, chams are not fragile. They’re given a fragile label by people that put them in the wrong environments and they biologically can’t survive in it. They are extremely resilient!!

 

[DocZ]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...car-fog-droplet-size-and-fog-dynamics.192538/

This topic comes up a lot. I enjoyed the dive into the physics of fog from this discussion

 

[pasquel2012]

I should add that the ad says it's not waterproof; but mine gets heavily sprayed and hasn't failed me yet! I think they mean more so, don't drop it fully in the sink for 10 min and expect it to work again...

Having it mid-cage will totally give you a better idea of the humidity. The ones I keep outside the cages are usually about 5-10% less than the ones in the cage. Just to give you an idea of the difference.

Thank you!! Yes. It must mean don’t submerge.

 

[pasquel2012]

I am a fogger fan. I like the morning and evening mist, but I’ve kept Chams with no mister, only nighttime fog and a dosing pump used for a dripper a few times per day
There is some small studies looking at fogging at night and following the animals weight
Why do you weigh yourself in the morning? Because you lost weight overnight breathing off water weight. Warm humid air out, cool dry air in out. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon so you are losing grams with every breath at night because you don’t eat or drink to replace it
The study showed no weight loss or even gain in Chams while breathing fog at night vs those that did not who lost measurable weight. Is it proof? Maybe not, but it is evidence that they are likely acquiring water weight at night = hydration

I like providing all opportunities for hydration. Mister morning and bedtime, fog at night, dripper a few times during the day. If they are drinking give them some water. Kidney disease is probably the primary or secondary problem of most of the diseases we see in lizards, and hydration makes kidneys happy

Makes sense. Yes. In my reading/listening I heard they have equal or positive weight when they wake in the mornings. Like you said, not proof, but seems like good evidence. I like the idea of providing all forms. I probably will add dripper too. Thank you!!!

 

[DeremensisBlue]

You’re right. I need to figure it out as I go according to the climate I live in, because everyone is different.

Thank you for responding and helping to settle me down. I’ve heard for so long that chameleons are so fragile that I’m too worried. I guess I need to step back and realize I am providing good care. I can take a little time to work out the details. My daughter wanted a chameleon for her birthday a year ago. I said no, they’re too fragile. We got a bearded dragon that I put the same amount of time and learning into. I’m comfortable that I’m doing right by him.

This birthday she wanted still wanted a chameleon. So now we have a bearded dragon and a chameleon. However, with the bearded dragon, I felt more confidant with the evidence in how to care for him.

This chameleon has driven me over the edge

Ah, the wonders of fogging…I love what fogging has solved. But, I also still use misters. I really like to view chameleon hydration as a combination of things like fog breathing, mist drinking, and food eating. Petr has gone on to insist that chameleons should only be fogged, while you will notice every single one of my care guides still has misting as part of how to set up a chameleon cage. So, you will find different approaches even with people that get along and share ideas.

The point is that there is no one guide on fogging. It is way too new for that. I first introduced it on the podcast in 2018 and it wasn’t until 2023 that I could make an episode showing that fogging could work as a sole hydration source for adult male Parson’s Chameleons all the way down to hatchlings. So, that is five years of us working things out and testing. I am very confident that fogging can be used as a sole hydration source, but that doesn’t mean it has to be used that way. Like I said, I use misters with my foggers even though I truly believe foggers can do the job. Why? Well, why not? And, I am accounting for days that the fogging, for whatever reason doesn’t do the job. Maybe the chameleon slept in the wrong place in the cage? Because it is very difficult to get complete coverage in the cage. Misting is a great back-up. And, besides, my plants have never looked better with a fogging/misting combo!

So, my advice to you would be to use both the fogger and the mister. The goal is a hydrated chameleon, not a specific brand of husbandry. As you get the entire glob of husbandry working and you start feeling more confident then you can play around with reducing misting, increasing fogging, or whatever. Or else…don’t, and just be happy with what works.

I present husbandry as best as I can understand it and extract key points to add from keepers around the world.

You are doing fine with what you are doing. Keep observing and tweaking. And fog all night and mist in the morning, drip in the afternoon, and feed hornworms in the evening. Give them all sorts of opportunities to hydrate! And watch poop. Because that is what chameleon keepers do best!

By the way, this week’s podcast was about the beginning stages of the chameleon journey and why it is so darn confusing. It might be a fun listen considering the context of this conversation.

 

[pasquel2012]

Docs last reply is 100% spot on! I am glad you brought up the point about weighing chameleons in the wild at sun down, and re weighing the same animals before sun up and they found they gain weight. The only explanation to that is taking in water.

I go about it the same as Doc I kept chameleons for years pre fog days, and misted a lot during the day. It is much harder to keep a chameleon in a bioactive setup that way. You’re going to have a lot more water to drain from misting, than you will from fogging. I think fogging is a great additive when doing bioactive.

The last two years, I have been heavily fogging. 6-8 hours of fog, with a 1 min mist at lights out, and 1 min about 30 min after lights on.

For my Jackson, his urates are good with that schedule. However, every few weeks or so I offer him (just yesterday) a 5 min mist session in the afternoon and he will drink and shoot his tongue at water droplets.

My Kinyongia Boehmei… I’ve had this pair since March and have seen them drink 0 times. I am positive they get all of their hydration from fog. Their cages are in my office so I watch them a lot. Again, zero leaf licking. 90-99% humidity at night.

So!!! I believe you’re on the the right. I believe fogging is a great way to hydrate. Fog is definitely a way they hydrate in the Wild, and likely the main way. But, it is definitely OK to mist during the day too, and don’t worry you see them drink. You don’t need to stress about that. Just make sure if you’re fogging, you’ve got things sealed up enough to get a build up in the cage, and you’ve got low enough temps. Petrs videos and write ups about never seeing a chameleon in the wild not drink shouldn’t be discounted. The guy has spent an incredible amount of time observing wild chameleon while majority of us will only dream about doing that.

Here is the deal. James isn’t wrong, what Chameleon Academy and Neptune say is not 100% gospel, nor do they try and portray that. Bill is extremely clear they are guidelines and each person has to fine tune what works for them in their environment. BUT!! Being a new person. Be very carful with getting on here and posting and then taking the answers and trying to hybrid and panicking. It’s clear you’ve still got the new keeper fears and that’s ok . When you’re new to anything, it’s best to find a mentor or two and follow their instructions. Once you have some traction and your own experience, that’s when you can start taking others advice, comparing it to what you know works for you and finding your own path. When you do your homework like you have, chams are not fragile. They’re given a fragile label by people that put them in the wrong environments and they biologically can’t survive in it. They are extremely resilient!!

Thank you!!!!! You are so right!! The new keeper panicking=me. And i think I even hear bill strand say it in a video—-find one mentor. But I went down a rabbit hole anyway. Thank you for reminding me.

Ah, the wonders of fogging…I love what fogging has solved. But, I also still use misters. I really like to view chameleon hydration as a combination of things like fog breathing, mist drinking, and food eating. Petr has gone on to insist that chameleons should only be fogged, while you will notice every single one of my care guides still has misting as part of how to set up a chameleon cage. So, you will find different approaches even with people that get along and share ideas.

The point is that there is no one guide on fogging. It is way too new for that. I first introduced it on the podcast in 2018 and it wasn’t until 2023 that I could make an episode showing that fogging could work as a sole hydration source for adult male Parson’s Chameleons all the way down to hatchlings. So, that is five years of us working things out and testing. I am very confident that fogging can be used as a sole hydration source, but that doesn’t mean it has to be used that way. Like I said, I use misters with my foggers even though I truly believe foggers can do the job. Why? Well, why not? And, I am accounting for days that the fogging, for whatever reason doesn’t do the job. Maybe the chameleon slept in the wrong place in the cage? Because it is very difficult to get complete coverage in the cage. Misting is a great back-up. And, besides, my plants have never looked better with a fogging/misting combo!

So, my advice to you would be to use both the fogger and the mister. The goal is a hydrated chameleon, not a specific brand of husbandry. As you get the entire glob of husbandry working and you start feeling more confident then you can play around with reducing misting, increasing fogging, or whatever. Or else…don’t, and just be happy with what works.

I present husbandry as best as I can understand it and extract key points to add from keepers around the world.

You are doing fine with what you are doing. Keep observing and tweaking. And fog all night and mist in the morning, drip in the afternoon, and feed hornworms in the evening. Give them all sorts of opportunities to hydrate! And watch poop. Because that is what chameleon keepers do best!

By the way, this week’s podcast was about the beginning stages of the chameleon journey and why it is so darn confusing. It might be a fun listen considering the context of this conversation.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful response! I will continue to fog/mist/drip/observe/tweak, and I’ll listen tonight after kids and husband are asleep. I’ll also order some hornworms. I stopped using those as feeders for my dragon because they are just so darn cute


P.S.
I feel famous…. Bill Strand commented on my post. Thanks again!!!