Fog and foggers...

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
If I use foggers or mist at night here in the winter I will end up with respiratory infections sometimes and sometimes there will even be mold start to grow...so I let the cages dry out overnight and mist/water during the daytime. There is always a chill in the air at nights in the winter...the air isn't just cool like it would be in Florida or other warmer climates. I seriously believe that the climate we live in can mean we have to make adjustments to the husbandry and the caging too sometimes.

I always figure if my chameleons live long healthy lives and lay good eggs that hatch out good babies that I also raise... and they have long healthy lives too then I did something reasonably right.
 
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CamoChameleonsHuman

Chameleon Enthusiast
My relative humidity on a good day is about 25% here with a high of 90*F. I often times start running the humidifier in their room on low before noon when the AC comes on. If I did this practice I'd have dead chameleons. Let it be known there are 2 large air vents in the room and their enclosures are all screen. Not blocked off in any way. I also do not run foggers in their enclosures. I place a cool mist humidifier in the room next to their enclosures. I also mist during the day for a total of 3min between 4 misting sessions. This has worked for me but I understand it will not work for everyone. I've come to learn

1) chameleons hate getting wet
2) my Panthers do not require a constant drip to see the water on the leaves. They wait for it stop misting than later they go to the pools of water on the leaves.
3) they do not drink everyday which I cough up to proper humidity levels during the day and night
4) preformed vitamin A is better for the eyes of our chameleons than so called fluching them out with water as we previously thought. I often see them doing this and looking like it irritates there eyes when getting wet not helping and cleaning.

I believe poor ventilation/circulation mixed with high humidity and too much heat to be the culprit of most RIs. I also keep my temps on the lower side. 85*f and my boys seem to really enjoy it and have awesome looking fecals. If I take them outside when it's in the 90s they gape after 5-10min.

These of course are my own experiences and my own opinions with my own chameleons. I can't and won't generalize chameleon husbandry anymore. I have found that some things can be tweaked and others such as lighting, gutloading, and supplements really can not.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
My relative humidity on a good day is about 25% here with a high of 90*F. I often times start running the humidifier in their room on low before noon when the AC comes on. If I did this practice I'd have dead chameleons. Let it be known there are 2 large air vents in the room and their enclosures are all screen. Not blocked off in any way. I also do not run foggers in their enclosures. I place a cool mist humidifier in the room next to their enclosures. I also mist during the day for a total of 3min between 4 misting sessions. This has worked for me but I understand it will not work for everyone. I've come to learn

1) chameleons hate getting wet
2) my Panthers do not require a constant drip to see the water on the leaves. They wait for it stop misting than later they go to the pools of water on the leaves.
3) they do not drink everyday which I cough up to proper humidity levels during the day and night
4) preformed vitamin A is better for the eyes of our chameleons than so called fluching them out with water as we previously thought. I often see them doing this and looking like it irritates there eyes when getting wet not helping and cleaning.

I believe poor ventilation/circulation mixed with high humidity and too much heat to be the culprit of most RIs. I also keep my temps on the lower side. 85*f and my boys seem to really enjoy it and have awesome looking fecals. If I take them outside when it's in the 90s they gape after 5-10min.

These of course are my own experiences and my own opinions with my own chameleons. I can't and won't generalize chameleon husbandry anymore. I have found that some things can be tweaked and others such as lighting, gutloading, and supplements really can not.
Respectfully must say, what chameleons are you keeping that they hate water lol? All 3 of my Male Panthers, 1 female panther, and Parsons chameleon love getting drenched in water. I have videos of them running into it(my enclosures are large enough to allow dry and wet areas). I have noticed that the nosey be liked it more than the ambanjas, wonder if it's a locale thing, or just personality. Once it was on for a minute or so they all enjoyed it though. Some flinch a bit when it turned on, but that's a natural reaction to sudden water. My nosey be and Parsons didn't even blink an eye when the water started, they literally could bathe in it all day if I'd let them.

Not drinking everyday is usually a good sign of hydration, could be any reason. I'm with you though that the humidity probably helps a lot. my Parsons lives outside during summer, we have fog at night and I don't think he *needs* water as much as I give him, but he enjoys it and I'd rather not experiment with an expensive reptile when misting is proven to work and so far no health problems when so many montane keepers do have struggles *knocks on wood*

Comparing preformed vit A to flushing the eyes, ehhh idk, that's like apples to oranges. Although, eye health is probably related to overall hydration rather than just spraying water in their eyes.

Kinyonga brings up a valid point, as I have before. I have no problem if fogging works for you all, but how long have we been doing it? What's the expected lifespan in the wild vs captivity? Probably not very good... for people that want to mist, who is anyone to say they're wrong(not saying you are camo, I respect what you're pointing out here, just friendly debate). People that have been misting have had chams far outlive their natural lifespan, reproduce in captivity, etc... something must be right for them to thrive like that.

And how can't gutloading and supplementing be tweaked? Nutrition is one of the least understood things, especially in reptiles. or maybe I read that wrong?
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I feel that most people here have nothing to worry about with RIs because our general husbandry is good, whether we're fogging or misting. Things like diet/supplements, sun, etc play a large role in healthy immune systems. Most of us here put a lot of work into doing those things to the best of our ability. I'd like to see everyone who has had chams with RIs with a list of their husbandry and see if anything in particular seems to trend, maybe high temps/humidity, maybe drafts, maybe poor diet.... would be interesting!
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@jamest0o0 said..."And how can't gutloading and supplementing be tweaked? Nutrition is one of the least understood things, especially in reptiles. or maybe I read that wrong?"...I know I said I agreed with not tweaking those things but what I really should have said is that I see no reason to tweak them myself because they seem to work well the way I have them and I would hate to make things become worse by tweaking them. Nutrition does need more understanding. VitaminA in my opinion needs more study too.
 

JoXie411

Chameleon Enthusiast
I feel that most people here have nothing to worry about with RIs because our general husbandry is good, whether we're fogging or misting. Things like diet/supplements, sun, etc play a large role in healthy immune systems. Most of us here put a lot of work into doing those things to the best of our ability. I'd like to see everyone who has had chams with RIs with a list of their husbandry and see if anything in particular seems to trend, maybe high temps/humidity, maybe drafts, maybe poor diet.... would be interesting!
Your forgetting the ladder poor immune system takes a rule in this. Genetic problems play a big rule in these things as well. There are lots of facts that need to be accounted for before making a decision on something. Not all chams are the same that’s all I’m getting at
 

CamoChameleonsHuman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Respectfully must say, what chameleons are you keeping that they hate water lol? All 3 of my Male Panthers, 1 female panther, and Parsons chameleon love getting drenched in water. I have videos of them running into it(my enclosures are large enough to allow dry and wet areas). I have noticed that the nosey be liked it more than the ambanjas, wonder if it's a locale thing, or just personality. Once it was on for a minute or so they all enjoyed it though. Some flinch a bit when it turned on, but that's a natural reaction to sudden water. My nosey be and Parsons didn't even blink an eye when the water started, they literally could bathe in it all day if I'd let them.

Not drinking everyday is usually a good sign of hydration, could be any reason. I'm with you though that the humidity probably helps a lot. my Parsons lives outside during summer, we have fog at night and I don't think he *needs* water as much as I give him, but he enjoys it and I'd rather not experiment with an expensive reptile when misting is proven to work and so far no health problems when so many montane keepers do have struggles *knocks on wood*

Comparing preformed vit A to flushing the eyes, ehhh idk, that's like apples to oranges. Although, eye health is probably related to overall hydration rather than just spraying water in their eyes.

Kinyonga brings up a valid point, as I have before. I have no problem if fogging works for you all, but how long have we been doing it? What's the expected lifespan in the wild vs captivity? Probably not very good... for people that want to mist, who is anyone to say they're wrong(not saying you are camo, I respect what you're pointing out here, just friendly debate). People that have been misting have had chams far outlive their natural lifespan, reproduce in captivity, etc... something must be right for them to thrive like that.

And how can't gutloading and supplementing be tweaked? Nutrition is one of the least understood things, especially in reptiles. or maybe I read that wrong?
By not tweaking gutloading and supplements I meant that we obviously know that our feeders lack the calcium rich feeders they would come across in the wild. Therefore we know they need calcium almost everyday on feeders. Not once a week or once a month. Although I have asked myself as they age is calcium as important as it is when they are growing? Meaning can calcium intake be backed off like we do as adults when our bones are fully formed? And gutload can obviously be switched up but you're not going to do it improperly with Flukers or just 1 vegetable or an orange. We obviously have our gutload chart and I'm sure it could be increased greatly as well to fruits and vegetables you might find not at your locale grocery store.

My Ambanja hates getting wet. Once saw the mister hit him and he violently started shaking his head against his branch trying to get it off. My Ambilobe could really care less but he prefers to stay out of the way of the mister. They both have the times it goes off pretty much down at this point.

I also understand there are species that flock to water or it needs to hit them in the face for 4min straight before they even realize it's on and they move. I was generalizing my own chameleons.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Bones are constantly replacing/remodeling themselves. Things called osteoclasts constantly break down the bone. Calcium it's needed in the blood from time to time too. Things called osteoblasts rebuild what is broken down including putting calcium back into the bones.

Although I think once the hatchling has reached full growth we can back off the calcium a bit, isn't it happening because we feed the older chameleons less often and feed them less food ...so we're automatically dusting less?

I wonder if chameleons are like people and in their older years the bone is broken down more than it is replaced so there is eventually bone loss? Guess that's my next research project. :(
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Your forgetting the ladder poor immune system takes a rule in this. Genetic problems play a big rule in these things as well. There are lots of facts that need to be accounted for before making a decision on something. Not all chams are the same that’s all I’m getting at
Funny you mention this, last night I had a post started then decided I didn't feel like saying anymore lol, but pretty much the same as what you're getting at. I was going to say, another thing is, sometimes everything is right and an animal just gets sick from a brief immune system vulnerability just as it happens with people. Some are genetically weaker too, I think that's where experienced breeders come into play though, trying to weed out any that might not be healthy.

I also believe this is where bioactivity plays a role, exposure is good for the immune system. When we treat our chams like bubble boys they are going to be vulnerable. I think animals that evolve millions of years in the wild are going to be pretty damn resilient when their needs are met otherwise.
 

JoXie411

Chameleon Enthusiast
Funny you mention this, last night I had a post started then decided I didn't feel like saying anymore lol, but pretty much the same as what you're getting at. I was going to say, another thing is, sometimes everything is right and an animal just gets sick from a brief immune system vulnerability just as it happens with people. Some are genetically weaker too, I think that's where experienced breeders come into play though, trying to weed out any that might not be healthy.

I also believe this is where bioactivity plays a role, exposure is good for the immune system. When we treat our chams like bubble boys they are going to be vulnerable. I think animals that evolve millions of years in the wild are going to be pretty damn resilient when their needs are met otherwise.
this topic reminds me about an Article about respiratory infections. Idk if you’ve read it but hears the link
Respiratory article
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
In all my years of keeping chameleons I had a mellers chameleon come to me with a respiratory infection and a chameleon from a shipment where the whole shipment had respiratory issues. That's all. I know this because almost every body I've had from chameleons I have taken to the veterinary college for necropsies so if they had had an RI it would have shown up. I have not used foggers during the night or misters either as a rule. I misted my reptiles early in the day...again in the afternoon and set up a dripper to run part of the day too. That's it.

"Surprisingly, chameleons drink very rarely in the wild (P. Necas, Carl Cattau, Jan Stipala pers. obs.)"...
Gee...there's a name I haven't seen for a while...Carl Cattau...
I still have trouble believing that they don't drink during the day...morning dew? Rain hat fell on the leaves?
 
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