Female Yemen and plant eating

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
There has always been the question of why females are far more likely to eat your plants. So it has been something I have been contemplating, and trying to observe any difference in male to female behavior in this regard.

One of my firs observations, that I still find odd. Was when my male was injured and lost his tongue. I always thought he would naturally start eating more plants. Makes sense, they are much easier to catch. This did not happen, and where in his younger days he ate some plants, now it is never.

The second was just today. I observed my female eating her ficus, but she had climbed way out to get the most tender, and likely extra nutritious, as the new growing process at this stage creates a lot of carbohydrates and amino acids, baby leaves.

So we have a male that ate plants when he was younger/smaller and at an older larger age does not.
Then we have a female that, dare I say harvests, she will wait every couple of weeks, then go eat all the new shoots.

If we look at a tree, or even large bush in nature, where are the new shoots ? out on the ends of the branches of course.

So if over the course of thousands of years, the smaller females that could better reach this extra source of food, particularly in times of drought or harsh season, would survive longer, and have more babies that survive longer using this technique. This would result in a population where the females eat plants. But what of the males, why would they not develop the same survival trick? We we do see some of this, but nearly as much in males. Why not ? Well as a male there would be two primary reasons why.
1) Size at twice the size of a female, it is safe to assume that they would not be able to reach the thinner branches that the females could, making their options less nutritious.
2) There is simply no need. As a large male you claim territory, and seek mates. You are not producing the eggs, so your nutritional need would in fact be less than the females. Time is simply spent doing boy things.

@kinyonga @PetNcs
anybody, Thoughts on this theory .
 
I always thought males ate more berries than females. That is a lot more calorie per pound vs greens.
I always thought males at less veg because they can physically eat larger prey, that and they can get access to areas of the bush that the shorter females and rookie males can not reach. If you go with the Pet diet, lots and lots of crappy feeders, then a male that can down a bird or rodent or lizard, its like super nutrition.
 
I always thought males ate more berries than females. That is a lot more calorie per pound vs greens.
I always thought males at less veg because they can physically eat larger prey, that and they can get access to areas of the bush that the shorter females and rookie males can not reach.

Yes that ties in exactly. Fruits and berries, well actually it would be the fruit of the Jujubes tree, apparently they are very common in Yemen, that and the acacia tree. These would be available to the males, and as you say have a worthwhile nutritional content.
But yes male would claim the best spots, leaving the female to find other survival solutions. Males would have more food options in that the are larger and can eat bigger bugs.

The primary food of pollinators as observed by Peter would stand as primary of course. But looking over the course of thousands of years, again, the ones that had developed even a very slight advantage, like surviving a bad year or month, could lead to this difference we see today.
 
In my experience, male veileds rarely eat any of the pothos but my female veileds always stripped the pothos bare...especially when they were gravid. They also ate the sand I provided them in the laybin. (I'm sure the sand was the type that was mostly calcium carbonate.)
Pothos has lots of calcium but it's bound to oxalates so I don't know how that would help the chameleon unless they have a way to break it down. It's supposed to be toxic but doesn't seem to bother the chameleons which makes me think this might be possible.

@CasqueAbove is your female producing eggs?
 
In my experience, male veileds rarely eat any of the pothos but my female veileds always stripped the pothos bare...especially when they were gravid. They also ate the sand I provided them in the laybin. (I'm sure the sand was the type that was mostly calcium carbonate.)
Pothos has lots of calcium but it's bound to oxalates so I don't know how that would help the chameleon unless they have a way to break it down. It's supposed to be toxic but doesn't seem to bother the chameleons which makes me think this might be possible.

@CasqueAbove is your female producing eggs?


Well she just laid. But the behavior of letting fresh sprouts get to a particular size, then eating the shoots has always been there. There was one plant she loved, she would strip all the leaves, wait till it was full of fresh leaves and eat them off the vine like grapes.

Grape Ivy does not seem to get eaten. Pathos all stages. Umbrella plant primarily shoots, Ficus just shoots. Hibiscus she would literally sit for hours and just graze I had to remove it.
 
But but hibiscus is a yum yum tree. The flowers are like crack to tortoises. I would exchange the flowers with the turtle guy at work from some supers when he ordered the big box.
 
Interesting. I have a male and female side by side(no they can't see each other) and they both have the same setup with the same types of plants in them.(I have a money tree and a pothos plant in each.) My male has torn the crap out of his money tree. Almost every single leaf has bite marks on it and some of the leaves are turning brown from it. My female not so much.
 
Oxalates can cause kidney stones but certain gut bacteria can deal with the oxalates up to a point. Three of the bacteria according to what I've read are bifidobacterium sp, lactobacillus sp, oxalobacter sp.

Regarding bifido bacterium sp....it's found in bees, wasps, roaches and other insects. It's also found in BeneBac and some of the commercial cricket feeds.

Perhaps veiled chameleons retain it in their guts and so they can handle things like pothos?
 
I have a male and he loves eating plants there are bites in almost all of his plants. He actually likes plants so much I have hand fed him them before I figured out they can't break down plants very well. So don't make the same mistake and don't feed raw plants!;):):LOL:
 
There has always been the question of why females are far more likely to eat your plants. So it has been something I have been contemplating, and trying to observe any difference in male to female behavior in this regard.

One of my firs observations, that I still find odd. Was when my male was injured and lost his tongue. I always thought he would naturally start eating more plants. Makes sense, they are much easier to catch. This did not happen, and where in his younger days he ate some plants, now it is never.

The second was just today. I observed my female eating her ficus, but she had climbed way out to get the most tender, and likely extra nutritious, as the new growing process at this stage creates a lot of carbohydrates and amino acids, baby leaves.

So we have a male that ate plants when he was younger/smaller and at an older larger age does not.
Then we have a female that, dare I say harvests, she will wait every couple of weeks, then go eat all the new shoots.

If we look at a tree, or even large bush in nature, where are the new shoots ? out on the ends of the branches of course.

So if over the course of thousands of years, the smaller females that could better reach this extra source of food, particularly in times of drought or harsh season, would survive longer, and have more babies that survive longer using this technique. This would result in a population where the females eat plants. But what of the males, why would they not develop the same survival trick? We we do see some of this, but nearly as much in males. Why not ? Well as a male there would be two primary reasons why.
1) Size at twice the size of a female, it is safe to assume that they would not be able to reach the thinner branches that the females could, making their options less nutritious.
2) There is simply no need. As a large male you claim territory, and seek mates. You are not producing the eggs, so your nutritional need would in fact be less than the females. Time is simply spent doing boy things.

@kinyonga @PetNcs
anybody, Thoughts on this theory .

It would be bettwr if you firt read more about the theories about plant matter consumptio in the yemen chameleon nefore you raise theories. I remember Kinyonga made here a good overview not long ago.

IMHO your theory is out of discussion as the purpose of the plant eating is not nutrition.
Chameleons can not digest plant matter, the are not her herbivores. They do. Ot focus on young shots. The females do it same as males, no dofference.
Moreover, your evidence of females eating more plamt matter than males is heavily biased by captivity and a solutely insufficient number of samples.
And this is rhe beginning: erong assumption based on imcodental unnstural captive observation,
Together with no reading about rhe matter leads to an idea thet does nit qualify to be a theory and is out of question to be discussed. iMHO
 
Yes that ties in exactly. Fruits and berries, well actually it would be the fruit of the Jujubes tree, apparently they are very common in Yemen, that and the acacia tree. These would be available to the males, and as you say have a worthwhile nutritional content.
But yes male would claim the best spots, leaving the female to find other survival solutions. Males would have more food options in that the are larger and can eat bigger bugs.

The primary food of pollinators as observed by Peter would stand as primary of course. But looking over the course of thousands of years, again, the ones that had developed even a very slight advantage, like surviving a bad year or month, could lead to this difference we see today.

1. Z. Jujuba is not widespreadminnYemen,
Itnis Zizipha spina-cnrosti and it has completely fifferent smallish fruits.
2. Acacia trees do not habe beries st all
3. Males claim best spots? No. Or define what is “better”,
Itnis not true based on my onservations at all
4. Males have more food options? Where does this come from? Not true.
5. Males eat bigger bugs? No, there are none, rhe feed on litrle orey items, not on larger “bugs”

IMHO rhe whole comment is not feasible at all
 
It would be bettwr if you firt read more about the theories about plant matter consumptio in the yemen chameleon nefore you raise theories. I remember Kinyonga made here a good overview not long ago.

IMHO your theory is out of discussion as the purpose of the plant eating is not nutrition.
Chameleons can not digest plant matter, the are not her herbivores. They do. Ot focus on young shots. The females do it same as males, no dofference.
Moreover, your evidence of females eating more plamt matter than males is heavily biased by captivity and a solutely insufficient number of samples.
And this is rhe beginning: erong assumption based on imcodental unnstural captive observation,
Together with no reading about rhe matter leads to an idea thet does nit qualify to be a theory and is out of question to be discussed. iMHO

That is why I seek your opinion. I do not have all the background as you and others. You are absolutely correct about it being impossible to draw any conclusion from two captive animals.

I seek the knowledge of those that have more than me. I like the forum because I can get this kind of feed back.

Between you and Kinyonga I do think my theory is falling apart. I think you point of captivity is a very important one, it is difficult if not impossible to discern if it is a captive behavior or a natural behavior.

I do not have as much to go on as you, and I am sure you have put much thought into the same. I respect your opinions, and that is why I tagged you. You simply have more knowledge to say and I thank you for your input.
 
In my experience, male veileds rarely eat any of the pothos but my female veileds always stripped the pothos bare...especially when they were gravid. They also ate the sand I provided them in the laybin. (I'm sure the sand was the type that was mostly calcium carbonate.)
Pothos has lots of calcium but it's bound to oxalates so I don't know how that would help the chameleon unless they have a way to break it down. It's supposed to be toxic but doesn't seem to bother the chameleons which makes me think this might be possible.

@CasqueAbove is your female producing eggs?

I would be extremely cautious doing anžy interpretation of your observations, done undernunnatural captife condktions and offering rven plant matter not available to the Yemen chameleons in tje wild
 
That is why I seek your opinion. I do not have all the background as you and others. You are absolutely correct about it being impossible to draw any conclusion from two captive animals.

I seek the knowledge of those that have more than me. I like the forum because I can get this kind of feed back.

Between you and Kinyonga I do think my theory is falling apart. I think you point of captivity is a very important one, it is difficult if not impossible to discern if it is a captive behavior or a natural behavior.

I do not have as much to go on as you, and I am sure you have put much thought into the same. I respect your opinions, and that is why I tagged you. You simply have more knowledge to say and I thank you for your input.

My suggestion os first find here the thread and read it before you raise a theory. It was a big debate and you fet totally different view once you read it

Males and females are both eating plant matter in the wild with no difference
 
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1. Z. Jujuba is not widespreadminnYemen,
Itnis Zizipha spina-cnrosti and it has completely fifferent smallish fruits.
2. Acacia trees do not habe beries st all
3. Males claim best spots? No. Or define what is “better”,
Itnis not true based on my onservations at all
4. Males have more food options? Where does this come from? Not true.
5. Males eat bigger bugs? No, there are none, rhe feed on litrle orey items, not on larger “bugs”

IMHO rhe whole comment is not feasible at all

Again why I bring you in. I can only theorize on very limited information.
You have more knowledge of what is actually on the ground there. And better yet actual experience on the ground their.

I believed Males would claim the best spots, much the way a bird or some other animals do. For better feeding and mating.

As far as bigger bugs, again you have the knowledge to say what insects are available.

I hope my theorizing is not bothering you, I am trying to learn and not fixed on any Idea always ready to adapt to better knowledge.
 
My suggestion os first find here the thread and read it before you raise a theory. It was a big debate and you fet totally different view once you read it

Males and females are both eating poant matter i. Tje wild with no dofference

I had read what I could find. It is meant as a question, I hope nobody would take it as an answer to anything. For me this is the purpose of the forum, too reach out with the questions I have and get hones answers from those with more experience. And to see what others have observed in their animals.
 
@PetNcs ...you said..."Males and females are both eating plant matter in the wild with no difference"...so, if in captivity we feed the chameleons insects that don't require the help of leaves to "move" them through the digestive system is it not possible that they don't eat the leaves in captivity because they don't need the roughage to move the insects through their system?

Is it also not possible that the females eat leaves such as pothos and certain sands looking for more calcium?
Is it not possible for them to be eating them for reasons other than roughage in captivity?
 
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I would like to try to explain what I was saying better.
First, we know there is no nutritional value to chams from plant matter.

My theory would have more to do with lets sat an evolutionary habit. Something a population does that has no real benefit.

My theory would not involve any animal living on plant matter, but rather in the worst of times, those that had the habit my get an extra day or two of life. But in the concept of tens of thousands of years or more, those that had the habit would become more common.

I would relate it to a wild type doges (wolves , coyotes, etc) chewing sticks. We do see it as play, there is no real benefit to the animal. But again over the course of evolution, animals that developed habits that had the by product of cleaning the teeth, lasted just a little longer in average.

In either of these there is no nutrients or moisture that could benefit the animal in any significant way. Yet it exists. This is why I use the term "habit" . There does not appear to be any real outward benefit.
 
This is purely anecdotal but here are the pictures of my males enclosure and my females. :) My male has been chomping away.
 

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