Female T. quadricornis ID please.

[Trace]

I have not worked with any Cameroon species as my interests in lie elsewhere with chameleons (Mmm. bitaeniatus baby ) so I'm not up on the latest details regarding identification. It is my understanding that the differences between the two sub-species of quadricornis is done by lung and hemipenal morphology and aren't necessarily identified properly by outward appearances alone. These are not my animals so I'll try and give histories as best I know. Some of the attached photos aren't of the best quality but I can get more tomorrow. Same goes for exact weights and SVL's.

First up a CB quadricornis that is approximately one year old. SVL 3.5-4 inches.

Full body

Close-up of scales

Head/Casque

Crest/Casque

Second is a WC quadricornis that arrived in Canada approximately the beginning of September 2009. SVL 3-3.5 inches. She laid 10 eggs a few weeks ago and look to be fertile.

Full body

Head/Casque/Gular

Please notice the differences in colour, colour patterns on the body, gular crest, casque shape, squamation and striations on the neck leading from the casque and onto the body.

Am I just seeing variation within a sub-species or are these, in fact, two different species? Is it worth waiting another month or so for the WC female to shed off all the bruises and old skin and whatnot from the exportation process to get a better ID? Is the WC female something else completely?

Thanks!
Trace

 

[adamkwas]

The WC looks like a Gracilior. They are both Quadricornis, just different sub sp.

Interesting to see the differences... Thanks




Adam

 

[Klemins]

Trace, I have a lone female T. Quad. Gracilior so don't take my advice with a grain of salt. From my limited experience, both those animals look like the nominate T. Quadricornis. The coloration may be different simply due to locale/genetics. The scales on the gular crest of my female and many other Graciliors seem much thinner and with more of them than the females pictured, who have the wider, more triangular gular scales. Also note the size of the female dorsal crest at the back and the base of the tail (only shown on your second female). While small compared to a male, they are generally larger in the Quad. Quads than on the Quad. Gracilior. There is also the myth that Graciliors have a read head, but the nominate form is also said to have them occasionally, so that is not definitive (though my female does have one). Here are two photos of my CB female T. Quadricornis Gracilior from Chuck G. I don't have many detail shots, but you can at least compare some basics. Note that I've been told by few in the past that mine is a Quad. Quad., but I'm going with what I've been told.

 

[franklin]

first one is q.quadricornis,second maybe is gracilior,and the last(is the same of second animal?) maybe is gracilior.

 

[drewtt]

I dunno, Trace... looks like you've got a hybrid pfeffercornis if you ask me.

 

[Klemins]

In my post I meant "take my advice with a grain of salt", not what I typed. I was looking over my CiN article on the species and it also notes that the gular crest varies, but may not be a decisive way of differentiating. Hard to tell since I've seen animals with both type labeled as both species.

 

[Trace]

These girls have certainly piqued my curiosity. As some of you know I’ve worked exclusively with the bitaeniatus and related species for many, many years now and I’ll be the first to admit that those chameleons don’t get too much more plain and dull! Because of that, I notice subtleties between the related species within the complex and amongst the individual species themselves. So when I see these girls they just look so radically different from each other, to me that they’ve got to be a representation of the two sub-species of quadricornis or something different altogether.

I appreciate everyone’s replies thus far. In my tenure with chameleons I have not worked with any Cameroon specimens so I’m open to all viewpoints and ideas about these two females.

Cheers,
T

 

[Chris Anderson]

Trace,

I've never seen anything published on how to differentiate the females of this species based on external characteristics. Notes on differences between the males have been published and seem to be relatively straight forward but I don't know about the females. I have typically looked at the males of the shipment and assumed the females would be from the same collection locales and thus the same subspecies. This is obviously problematic in shipments that happen to have both subspecies.

Chris

 

[joshdhensley]

You beat me to it Chris.