Female Jackson - Always black! (see pic)

[JaxKiwiTiger]

We have 3 jackson chameleons, 2 male and one female. They each have seperate cages and are eating/drinking just fine. However, the female seems to stay black/stressed all the time. I'm worried because I know it's detrimental to her health and we're hoping to breed them soon. The only way we've seen her change colors back to normal is if we let her run free to the point where she believes she is out of captivity :-( We'd consider letting her go but we'd like a clutch or two out of her first! Here's a pic:

Basic facts: She eats gutloaded crickets/meal worms every day. We mist her cage 2-3x/day. She has a basking spot at the top of her cage, and we keep her out in the backyard most of the time where she is away from human presence and get natural sunlight (FYI we live in Hawaii! Always sunny and humid . We basically treat her the same as our 2 males, who rarely (if ever) get stressed. We purchased them all from an individual resaler so we believe she is not captive bred, which might be the problem. And if that's the case, what (if anything) can we do about it? Please help! Thanks!!

 

[ataraxia]

A black chameleon can be from a few things. You can decipher which pertains to you.

1.New, not happy with surroundings, cage to small, not enough foliage
Bigger cage, more vines, foliage, give her time to acclimate
2.Temps to cold or trying to soak heat while basking (you have her outside with the rest, so i would think this is not the case)
Make sure her enclosure is situated to receive the same amount of light as the rest.
3.Illness (parasites in particular as she might be wild caught)
Take a fresh poo in for examination of parasites.
4.Some sort of trauma/injury. this is usually site restricted unless the cham could be in some sort of serious pain. possibly internal injury.
If you think this is a possibility an xray is needed.
5.Can visibly see a male, other chameleon, animal or something that is threatening.
Move her out of sight.

 

[xanthoman]

stressed but why?

ok, we have a picture of a definitely stressed, less than happy, less than thriving cham. but that doesnt really tell us much.
imo, you would get better, faster help if you were to please fill out the help form in its entirety and repost. pics of its setup would be immensely helpful.

not to rain on the parade, but i think your plans of breeding may be a little premature. xanth clutches are a challenge enough, for even an experienced breeder to raise, when they are born of healthy, thriving, well conditioned parents.
anything less and there will almost certainly be serious health problems with the neonates, serious enough to prevent most, if not all, from making it to adulthood.

you should also be aware that breeding is very hard on xanth mothers. ime, any xanth mom thats not well conditioned, thriving and in good health, stands a pretty good chance of dying within 6 wks after birth. not eating after birthing is not all that uncommon and it can be harder to get them past than the usual hunger strike. even the healthy ones are exhausted and weakened by the birthing experience, its hard enough to get the healthy ones back into shape, many times even the healthy ones dont regain their full health after birthing. so imo, before you worry about breeding, you would be wise to concentrate on getting her to a happy thriving state, then maybe after 6+ months of being that way, she might be ready to breed if she is not past her window. jmo

edit; ok, i just reread your post, apparently i missed the part about hawaii, which sort of changes alot. so here are my thoughts on that. if she truly gets out every day, then hopefully you are not giving her supplemental D3 in addition to regular natural sun. excessive d3 can lead to calcification and pth problems (para-thyriod hormone)setting the stage for serious metabolic imbalance that could lead to vitamin a absorbtion problems or even mbd. if she gets at least 1/2hr of sun every day, best not to give any d3 whatsoever. discontinuing d3 in addition to giving natural sun will eventually bring her d3 back into balance, ruling that out as the culprit.

also, jacksons have a slow and sensitive metabolism, in the wild they get lots of exercise, but not so much in captivity, there is no need to feed everyday, (especially if you are feeding less than desirable feeders) imo, best to give her a couple of food days off every week, why not give her a day for her digestion to catch up every few days, so i would say, 3 food days, a day of rest, then 2 food days, and another day of rest. that will give her digestion a chance to deal with whatever is going on.

if i was to pick the 2 worst feeders to feed on a regular basis, then cricks and meal worms would probably be at the top of the list. imo, it would be prudent to start a colony of the native roaches, and start raising flies.
ok, so that takes care, of the d3 issue, the digestion issue and the diet issue.

as long as she is getting natural sun and a better diet, maybe a tiny pinch of PLAIN CAL NO-D3 1x a week. then only a tiny pinch (like a matchead for a half dozen feeders) of reptile multivite (with preformed vitamin a), every 3 weeks should be plenty. not a big fan of preformed vitamin a, but i believe they should have both a little of profomed A, and just in case, a small amount of preformed vitamin a, the less balanced her diet, the more important preformed vitamin a is, but, giving too much will only cause more problems. ok, so that takes care of the supp issue.

now lets talk about the gutload, her feeders should be gutloaded, but dont add vitamins to it, just make it out of cham healthy stuff (see sandrachameleons blog for a wealth of info on cham healthy gutload ingredients). and change it up a little every batch.

ok, now lets talk about the hawaii thing. virtually all wild hawaiin xanths have parasites. chams are a lot more tolerant of a parasitic load in a wild environment, than they are in a captive environment. so, imo, its reasonable to assume that virtually all of the chams for sale in hawaii, come from wild stock, at least in the last couple of generations. and, because of the ready availability of cheap or free wild stock, its also reasonable to assume that the vast majority of them, have never been diagnosed or treated for parasites. further, if you by a cham from somebody for less than $50, common sense dictates that they havent been diagnosed or treated for parasites, since it would cost more than that to do a fecal and get a vet visit. nobody's out there selling chams for $5-25, that they have already spent $50+ on.

ok now lets talk about nitetime temp drop, xanths should have a nitetime temp drop of about (at least 10*) if you bring her in at nite, then unless your house is colder than the ouside, then how are you providing nitetime temp drop?, nitetime temp drop is essential to a xanths appetite, digestion (which also relates to vitamin conversion/utilization) and general vigor and well being. in the wild most days they go from a day of basking in the sun to retreating to cooler areas at night. in captivity, they are just stuck with whatever they get.

now, where does that leave us, its pretty much a given that the issue is either pathogenic, meaning parasites, or metabolic, meaning general body chemistry having to do with the way she is kept ie diet , supps nite time temp drop or other factors in her environment. we've already discussed much of what you can do to help bring her metabolic issues back in balance, so pretty much all that remains is to prep her cage for fecals and submit fecals for fecal float microscopy.

all that being said, its reasonable to assume all of your animals are kept in the same way. just because your other animals are not displaying symptoms does not mean that they arent suffering from the same issues, it just means that the symptoms havent shown up yet. chams are just like people, or dogs or any other animals for that matter, in that no 2 chams are the same, there are weak ones and strong ones, it could be that she is just not as strong as your other chams. it could also be that your other chams are likely suffering from the same issues, but for whatever reasons just haven't shown any symptoms yet.

whether the issues are pathogenic or metabolic, if they share the same husbandry practices and equipment, sooner or later they are imo, likely to eventually end up with similar difficulties. so, imo, i would make the above changes for starters, and submit all of your animals for fecals.

still probably a good idea to post with the rest of your info. jmo

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

I have to believe that it's #1. But we've tried switching her into a bigger cage, to no avail. She still looks pretty stressed. She wasn't like that when we first got her, but now the only time her color lightens is when we let her loose in the yard to the point where she believes she's escaped.

Is it possible that some Jackson's just aren't made for captivity? This is my current speculation without solution.

A black chameleon can be from a few things. You can decipher which pertains to you.

1.New, not happy with surroundings, cage to small, not enough foliage
Bigger cage, more vines, foliage, give her time to acclimate
2.Temps to cold or trying to soak heat while basking (you have her outside with the rest, so i would think this is not the case)
Make sure her enclosure is situated to receive the same amount of light as the rest.
3.Illness (parasites in particular as she might be wild caught)
Take a fresh poo in for examination of parasites.
4.Some sort of trauma/injury. this is usually site restricted unless the cham could be in some sort of serious pain. possibly internal injury.
If you think this is a possibility an xray is needed.
5.Can visibly see a male, other chameleon, animal or something that is threatening.
Move her out of sight.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

Breeding isn't our current priority. At this point, we're just trying to get her to the point of happy and thriving. I've been pretty worried about her because of her stress levels and her eyes have red circles. We don't have much experience raising Jacksons and are just going off of whatever we can find on the internet.

Here's the "Help info":

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Jackson (female), guessing about 6 months old. Had her for about 3.
Handling - About 2-3x/week.
Feeding - Gut loaded crickets/mealworms, usually once a day. She usually eats 3-4 total.
Supplements - No sups at the moment.
Watering - Drop system/mist about twice a day. I do see her drink.
Fecal Description - Feces is a dark brown ball. Urine is white-ish.
History - Purchased from a breeder selling along the highway.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screened cage, about 24" high/16" wide
Lighting - No external lighting other than the sun (since we live in hawaii)Temperature - No controlled temperature - just monitored.
Humidity - Around 50-60. We live in a humid area, plus we mist every day.
Plants - We use a vine plant and a plastic one in her cage.
Placement - On the ground in our backyard. Generally a quiet, serene setting.
Location - Waipahu, HI

ok, we have a picture of a definitely stressed, less than happy, less than thriving cham. but that doesnt really tell us much.
imo, you would get better, faster help if you were to please fill out the help form in its entirety and repost. pics of its setup would be immensely helpful.

not to rain on the parade, but i think your plans of breeding may be a little premature. xanth clutches are a challenge enough, for even an experienced breeder to raise, when they are born of healthy, thriving, well conditioned parents.
anything less and there will almost certainly be serious health problems with the neonates, serious enough to prevent most, if not all, from making it to adulthood.

you should also be aware that breeding is very hard on xanth mothers. ime, any xanth mom thats not well conditioned, thriving and in good health, stands a pretty good chance of dying within 6 wks after birth. not eating after birthing is not all that uncommon and it can be harder to get them past than the usual hunger strike. even the healthy ones are exhausted and weakened by the birthing experience, its hard enough to get the healthy ones back into shape. so imo, before you worry about breeding, you would be wise to concentrate on getting her to a happy thriving state, then maybe after 6+ months of being that way, she might be ready to breed if she is not past her window. jmo

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

Sorry, I will try to upload a picture of her cage soon. At work right now so none on me at the moment.

 

[xanthoman]

if she goes green when you put her in the yard, then imo, that clearly indicates that she is stressed by the environment,, so one of the goals should be to provide her with an environment that better duplicates the sensation of being free, ie; a larger cage with more lush and natural plantings, they like to be up high, so i would elevate her cage to have a basking spot at least 6' above the ground.
in the wild they have the option to change temps by moving location, something they have less of in captivity, i would re-evaluate your setup from the ground up and try to come up with a plan that better duplicates her natural environment than the existing setup, there is almost always room for improvement, she needs a mixture of both sun and shade , the ability to bask and the ability to feel well concealed. the better job you can do of that, the more comfortable she will be.

clearly some chams handle captivity better than others. imo this is a bigger issue for wild caught chams or even chams bred from wild stock within a few generations. thats one of the issues with wild caught chams, some never do acclimate that well.
i think if you get her checked/treated for parasites, provide her with a larger, better planned cage, provide her with a better balanced diet she will probably adapt fine.

imo, i wouldnt handle her unless absolutely necessary until she is through this period. and when you do handle her, try to coax her onto a branch rather than use your hands , some xanths are just plain freaked out by people. trying to push her to adapt to you, will only make things worse.

its rare that anyone ever hears me say this, but if she hasnt been getting any supps, i would start her off with a single one time feeding of calcium with d3, next couple of days, with a reptile mulivite with preformed vitamin a and she should have at least a small dusting of plain cal every week, those are the only times i would use cricks, and smaller is better (<1/2") then just plain cal 1x a week, and multivites every three.

red in her eyes is new info and indicative of serious metabolic imbalance, you could try starting the supp regimen i suggested, but imo she should probably see a vet, and my guess is the vet will probably recommend a blood panel in addition to a fecal. jmo

also, there is at least one other forum member who has kept xanths in hawaii, cf member sarroca808, he hasnt logged in in 17 months, but he may get notifications or you may be able to email him. he has offered to help other locals before, so if you can contact him he may have some ideas since he has kept them there. sure i can offer advice on general husbandry but thats not the same as having local experience, so, imo, worth a try, ps some vets will let you submit a fecal without an office visit so that should be under $50, but imo it might make the difference if you could actually afford an office visit. i know you dont want to here this but if things get worse, if she is that stressed over captivity, she might have a better chance at surviving if you just let her go,and if not she wouldnt likely survive captivity anyway, so at least she could die like a wild cham. and you might have a cheaper and better chance of success if you just waited till you were better prepared and started with a healthier, less stressed animal.

its after 7:00 am here and i have been up all night, so its time for a xanthonap, but ill send you some info on what supps to look for later today. just for the record all of the same advice applies to the other xanths as well.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

We're getting a new, bigger cage for her this week so that should solve that problem. I'll also check Petco for those supplements you mentioned and see about feeding them to her. I'll start looking around for a vet I can take her to, but hopefully they're not too expensive (money's been kind of tight). Honestly, we probably would have only purchased one if we knew what we were getting into at the time. The guy who sold them to us wasn't much help either, but he probably was more interested in the sale than their well-being.

At any rate, thanks for all the help. I will provide updates within the next week or so.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

Also, you can't really tell in this pic but she does have a red throat. You can definitely see it when she is basking. Is this a bad sign? I assume she just needs more misting/humidity in her cage.

 

[ataraxia]

You have her cage on the ground..Try placing the cage as high as you can possibly manage.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

How high should I make it? We were thinking about getting a table to put the cages on but we still want to make sure they are unaware of each other's presence. So maybe put up divider's or something. Unless we just hang them in mid air? But then I'd be worried about them blowing around in the wind.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I've been pretty worried about her because of her stress levels and her eyes have red circles"....if you are talking about the reddishness to the turrets of the eye and not the actual eyeball itself, then its not nutritional...just part of her color IMHO.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

yeah, it looks minor...might just be her coloring, idk. her eyeballs itself isn't red so i don't believe it's anything to be alarmed about.

 

[JaxKiwiTiger]

Xanth,

Just read one of your earlier posts. I missed a bulk of it since only now I realized you edited it.

In regards to feeding: I believe you're spot on with the feeding schedule. To clarify, we usually try to feed them every day. If they're not receptive, we don't feed them. Usually 1 or 2 days a week, we get kinda busy and don't make any attempt to feed them. Like today, we had lots of stuff going so we just misted/refilled their drip systems twice. She's definitely drinking, and to my understanding that's more important than eating every day. Some times if we know we'll be busy we'll throw a few crix in their cage in advance, although I have heard this isn't good since the crix won't be freshly gutloaded when the xanth's finally get around to feeding, and/or they won't care to eat the crix. Same goes with meal worms, if they show no interest we'll hold back on feeding them for the day.

On a side note, we were concerned at one point that they weren't growing as fast as they should have been. We thought this might be due to them not feeding every day, but after reading your post I don't think that applies (plus what can you do if they don't wanna eat? we don't intend on force feeding them if circumstances aren't extreme). Since then they've gotten bigger, but still not the size I expected. The previous owner said they were about 3-4 months, and that was back in mid-August which means they're supposedly around 6-7 months. Being experienced with Xanths, would you say their size is more age appropriate? I intend on making another post with more attachments to see what other people say.

Now on to parasites...based on what I've read and what you've said, I believe this to be the most likely situation. Her overall health seems fine, as she consistently eats, drinks, and actively moves around her cage. I did not realize it can cause stress to the xanth's, so as soon as the money's available I intend on taking her in. If she turns out positive, I may also take in the male's.

For now, I intend on getting a cage from a friend that is 2'x2'x4', which I've heard is sufficient for full-grown xanth's. If her appearance improves from this, I may put off taking her in for a bit. We were told by her previous owner she was captive bred, so would that decrease her chance for parasites? He also told us that he's been breeding jacksons for 18 years, so I have to believe he at least somewhat knows what he's talking about. But like you said, the fact that he's offering them at $5 a pop does bring about questions and concerns.

At any rate, thank you for all the help! I do intend on providing updates as they come. I also messaged sarroca808 so hopefully he gets back to me soon.

 

[xanthoman]

a xantho first

in your help form you said that you have had the animal for 3mths, and no current supps at the moment? if what you are telling me is that the animal has not had any supps for the last three mths, then i would say it needs a vet visit immediately.
however, that being said, you can only do what you can do, and if you arent able to get her a vet visit NOW then (based on the above assumption), and i have never said this before, (except earlier in this thread), i would say that the next best thing, would be to get her some IMMEDIATE reptile multivites with preformed vitamin A. at this point i think it is probably more important to get that started than to worry about brand or schedule, so if that is the case, i would just go out today and get her the first preformed vitamin A product you come across, the most commonly available of these would probably be reptivite. (shock xantho just recommended reptivite, did i really just say that?)

i would never offer more cricks than you expect her to eat in the next hr and cricks should never be left in overnight. real sunshine or not, all of your animals need a small amount of weekly plain no d3 calcium, if they havent been getting it, then imo, a couple doses of liquid calcium glubionate might be called for before you start a powdered calcium regimen, you can get that here; http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Reptilestore.html

as far as size, i would say based on the original picture that her size is not unusual for a full grown captive female xanth that hasnt been optimally cared for, so age might be easier for you to guess than me, if she looked considerably smaller and younger when you got her, then i suppose its possible for her to be only 6 mths, but imo , she is likely older, generally speaking i wouldnt expect your captive chams to get as large as ones you may have noticed in the wild.

as far as the guy you got her from, i wouldnt place a whole lot of weight on anything he says, imo, anyone selling xanths by the roadside, isnt doing it for their love of the animals and he is probably thinking better chance of sale if he calls them captive bred. grabbing a wild gravid xanth off of a bush and bringing her home to birth does not really qualify as captive bred, and wouldnt really reduce her chances of being pathologically infected one bit. even if she were captive bred of captive born parents, the fact that she has likely been in close proximity to, and shared other husbandry equip with likely wild caught xanths makes chance of infection more probable than not.
imo, anyone who cares about the animals, and truly has an 18 yr history of breeding them, would be more than happy to offer any assistance they can, but thats jmo.

we already know that there is a strong likely hood of gross hematuria, (visible blood in the urates/urine) which is indicitive of kidney or other urinary issues. but what we dont know is if there is blood in the feces, if there is bright red, meaning undigested blood, in the feces (hematochezia), then that would imo, be more likely indicitive of pathological infection. there is a crude self test you can do for this. since its not conclusive, if it turns up negative, then it tells you nothing, since there could still easily be blood in the stool anyway, but if it turns up positive, than i would say the chances of pathological infection are high.

simply take some nitrile or even dishwashing gloves (and throw them away afterwards), take a freshly laid pooh, and smear it on a white index card or other piece of heavy white paper, if there are tinges of bright red, then, she is almost certainly hematochezic and likely infected with some form of parasite.
i wouldnt use plain latex gloves for this test as they could break open during the test. and just for the record, always sanitize your self after dealing with any sort of fecal/urate cage cleaning issues as well as handling your chams.

kinyonga correctly points out that there is often an area under or around the fringes of the turret that is naturally red, this is normal and not really indicitive of a health problem, which is a different issue than bright red on the eyeball itself or within the eye socket. so if that is the case, please elaborate and include macro pics if possible. there is a similar region in the gular (under the throat) area, sometimes the armpits as well.

generally speaking a 2x2x4' would be plenty for a truly captive bred xanth, but a wild caught xanth that is having acclimation issues, that might be another story. generally speaking, i would consider the way the cage is setup more important than the size.