Extremely dangerous info?? Want experienced keeper input

[azgnoinc]

Hello one & all, I came across what I think is some pretty dangerous info regarding a supplementation schedule that is being recommended by a Veterinarian (http://www.wbeph.com/reptiles/chameleons/dr-wrights-recommended-supplements-for-chameleons/).

I came across this info on FB when someone in a group there posted it & I would like to get some opinions on the recommended supplementation schedule which is as follows:

Monday – ZooMed Reptile Calcium without D3
Tuesday – ZooMed Reptivite with D3
Wednesday – ZooMed Reptile Calcium without D3
Thursday – ZooMed Reptivite with D3
Friday – ZooMed Reptile Calcium without D3
Saturday – Sticky Tongue Farms Miner All Indoor Formula
Sunday – ZooMed Reptile Calcium without D3

I personally think that this schedule is extremely excessive to say the least, but I would like some additional input. The article is dangerous IMO because it fails in the following areas:
1. Chameleon Species
2. Natural sunlight
3. Gutloading your feeders properly

If I am off base with my opinion/thoughts - I will be the first to admit my mistake, but I'm thinking that this supplementation schedule would kill most properly gutloaded chams in a matter of months - experienced keeper input please.

 

[Psychobunny]

That's waaaaaay too complicated, and assumes (in error) in advance that the cham will even need all that stuff if given a proper diet.

A suppliment is just that, a suppliment!!

Used as (if) needed.

 

[drcrossfire]

Looks more like a schedule for bearded dragons. Waaay too much d3 for chameleons.

 

[jannb]

I agree with the two post above. This is how I recommend supplementing if you have a veiled or panther.

The feeders have to be "lightly" dusted with 2 kinds of supplements. When your chameleon is young you will use plain calcium (no d3) at just about every feeding...... if you skip one or two days a month that's ok. You will also need Reptivite with d3 twice a month. Adult chameleons will not need nearly as much supplements. If your Cham gets allot of outside time and you properly gut load a wide variety of feeders, he may not need any calcium or D3 at all.

 

[fluxlizard]

I kind of see it both ways.

I think there is a danger from oversupplementing- but I don't think the danger is quite as extreme as some seem to think.

I've been breeding chameleons for over 20 years now, and during much of the 90s I had many veileds and panthers, as well as several other species in lesser numbers which I was successfully reproducing. I used rep-cal with d3 every feeding, and reptivite 1x per week during the winter, and plain calcium without d3 during the summer. For the first 4 or 5 years I kept my animals indoors year round and the schedule was the same as my winter schedule, only year round. I never lost an animal to oversupplementation that I know of and had individuals live several years on such supplementation.

I'm not saying do what I did, but on the other hand I don't think we need to be really afraid of using calcium with d3 for a few feedings in a row while we are waiting for calcium without d3 to arrive in the mail, and I think some of the common eye problems and tongue problems and egg laying problems here on the forums would be less common on Dr. Wright's schedule.

You guys do know you are being critical of one of the world's best reptile veterinarians right? One of only 8 American Board of Veterinary Practitioners actually certified as expert reptile and amphibian specialists in the united states? You do know that the standards for that are extremely high and if your veterinarian has a question, Dr Wright would be one of the vets they would most likely call to consult with about your animal right? You know his book Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry is cutting edge and articles in numerous publications are where your local vets learn their stuff right?

I mean, I think it is excellent and right to be critical and thoughtful, but on the other hand, I think while doing that, we should be aware that some weight should be given to who the advice is coming from. This isn't just some random veterinarian- this is someone who has proven they really know their stuff. At the same time, this guy isn't a nutritionist- but I'm sure he knows/has studied/has access to/probably consulted with some darn good ones...

This list of Dr Wright's scientific papers is worth a look
So is this list of his popular publications

If your Cham gets allot of outside time and you properly gut load a wide variety of feeders, he may not need any calcium or D3 at all.

Thoughts like this are great in a perfect world. And my hat is off and I bow to anyone who can pull stuff like this off. But most people are incapable of perfect husbandry. And I am thinking the guidelines on Dr Wright's website are probably applicable more to most people than experts, with the assumption that most people are going to be keeping a veiled or panther chameleon with the assumption are going to be feeding insects from the local pet shop fresh out of the bag. Balance that with and keep in mind my own long term experience with a supplementation schedule that was in retrospect by today's standards pretty darn extreme, yet my animals were outwardly healthy and I am pretty sure lived on average as long as well kept chameleons on average today (people with 10 year old males and 7 year old females being exceptions to the average that I can't pretend to compete with. But 3-4 year old females, 5-8 year old males I would consider average in my care).

Edit- not that I disagree with a less supplementation with good husbandry is better approach. I definately do. I'm just saying I don't necessarily see Dr Wrights advice as extremely dangerous for the average pet owner to follow. If it was, I would have had lots more problems with my chameleons in the 90s. I certainly had long term experience with large numbers of chameleons which should have made anything that qualified as "extreme dangers" of my supplementation schedule easily apparant in that time...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Sadly Kevin Wright passed away very unexpectedly only a few weeks ago. He was indeed a wonderful exotic vet and highly regarded in his field. There are only a small handful of vets who are boarded in reptile and amphibian medicine because it is extremely difficult. He will be missed by his colleagues, and I'm sure by his patients and their owners.

 

[fluxlizard]

I didn't know that. Sorry to hear that.

 

[sandrachameleon]

That's waaaaaay too complicated, and assumes (in error) in advance that the cham will even need all that stuff if given a proper diet.
A suppliment is just that, a suppliment!!
Used as (if) needed.

I agree.

The posted schedule seems a bit excessive to me (I dont know if Id go so far as to say dangerous), and certainly complicated yet without taking into consideration the type of prey or gutloading happening. And as the OP indicated, doesnt account for species/type of chameleon. Doesnt account for whether the animal is housed outdoors or indoors, and what (if any) UVB lighting is used.

 

[jannb]

Well Flexlizard it's not like I'm just making this up or not even something from my own experience. This quote came from Dr. Doug Mader. Do you know who he is? He's the author of the books that other vets use when they work on reptiles. He is one of the 12 reptile specialist in the world and I believe he knows more that anyone else here on the forums. He had me stop all calcium on my adult males about a year ago because from their x-rays and blood work supplementing the forums way had caused all my guys to be over supplemented. He also said under supplementing can be fixed but the damage from over supplements could not be fixed.

Quote:
If your Cham gets allot of outside time and you properly gut load a wide variety of feeders, he may not need any calcium or D3 at all.

The forums way for adult males:
Calcium without d3: every other feeding
Calcium with d3: twice a month

 

[juice28]

im no pro and stick to the "common" supplementation routine with a bit of breathing room. I might miss a day or two here and there but i dont feel that my chams are lacking...every day in nature isnt a bright sunny day. the supplementation schedules that are common/general seem to be more like guidelines instead of concrete rules, but most things in animal care are guidelines

this reminds me of dealing with saltwater fish and people who say you have to do a water change of 20% one a month and dose chemicals weekly....and then you run across someone who does a water changer maybe once twice a year and hardly doses anything and has a great looking tank for years. so who is wrong?..

i say neither but experience is the best teacher and if everything is balanced and you have a survivor chameleon( meaning one that would have made it in the wild and not one that lived because he lives in a cage) you might not need to supplement the alpha as much because its an alpha, on the other hand, you might have one of the runts thats a bit frail compared to the laws of nature but being in captivity, hell do just fine but may need the extra supp.

just my cent and a half lol

 

[fluxlizard]

Of course I am familiar with Mader.

Mader respected Wright enough to have him do a chapter in his Reptile Medicine and Surgery Book- the book you are talking about all the veterinarians using. Edition after edition. A lot of that book is by co-author experts.

Doesn't mean they agreed with each other on everything but is relevant if you guys are trying to paint Wright as giving dangerous advice.

That is very interesting about your lizards and Mader's advice.

So, do you believe nobody should be using calcium supplementation for adult males then? How did mader suggest keeping your Cal : phos levels correct so calcium doesn't become inadequate over time? Is it your choice of feeder insects? Because I think most people use crickets as the staple and other stuff for variety and crickets even gutloaded will have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think your gutloading practices are a little more nutritionally intense than the average pet owner, and a little more complicated than the average owner is going to handle...

Like I said, hats off to those experts like you who can pull it off.

 

[Lathis]

This is a really great thread. Thanks to everyone for sharing the links and info.

Supplementation is something that I still feel very unsure of. The inaccuracy of dosing with powdered products, not knowing which nutrients might be imbalanced, and not being sure of the exact needs of my particular cham all still make me nervous. I'm sure I am over thinking it, but I like hearing the opinions of professionals and the experienced keepers on CF, all discussing the topic on a very deep level. Thanks!

 

[fluxlizard]

I appreciate that and while I am defending Wright in this thread, I have no problem whatsoever being the first to tell you that you are better off following current advice on the forums, than doing what I did in the 90s.
Also although I personally feel more comfortable using a modest level of supplementation vs an absolute minimal level of supplementation, I want to be clear that I have a lot of respect for jannb and her knowledge and husbandry and the level of care she provides her animals.

 

[azgnoinc]

Ok, since I started this whole debate - first - thank you very much to all of you who contributed to this. My intention was to get people who I consider & know are far more experienced than I.
Second, I had absolutely NO clue who Dr. Wright was in so far as his stature within the chameleon/reptile world & certainly no idea that he had recently passed away, so my condolences to his family & friends.
Third - my thought was that putting this info in the hands of a newbie owner just wasn't a good idea due to what I see as being excessive supplementation by today's standards - especially for any type of Montaine species - which newbies can get their hands on in this day and age of ordering everything from the net.
I understand that though this schedule may have worked for some keepers back in the day, we have better & more access to supplements now then we did when MinerAll was about the best thing around, and I still use it on occasion because it certainly has proven it's merits to me, but I have also switched over to mainly Repashy supplements especially for my main calcium supplement and have had excellent success thus far (about 1 year now).
As was stated by one of the first responders - supplements are just that, and I think that most everyone has access to better nutritional info when it comes to gutload than ever before, thanks to people like Sandrachameleon, who I personally consider to be a pioneer in getting nutritional info about gutload ingredients out to the masses.
While I haven't been a member of CF since the beginning as others have, I have been around this community for 15 years - and this is one of the reasons that I love chameleon folks- we can have CIVIL debates and agree to disagree while educating one another and provoking thought and sharing experiences. Again, thank you one and all for sharing your thoughts & experiences; I truly appreciate it.

 

[ridgebax1]

Ok so now I am confused. My cham (a 6 or so month male veiled) gets crickets with plain calcium only 3 times in a week. On the off days he gets phoenix worms or butter worms (mostly phoenix; butters maybe once or so cause he does not really seem to like them) In the past two weeks or so he has gotten silks and hornworms, which are now all gone.

I know that once they reach this age they don't necessarily need to eat every day but I offer food and if he eats it OK and if not OK too, I just put them back and move on.

I have a schedule printed on a calendar to help me remember when to give the multivitamin and calcium with D3 each twice a month.

Do I need to decrease the supplements?