Enclosure and supplements

[MattandRicco]

So I just spoke with a very reputible breeder here In Montreal Canada, he told me that screen enclosures are garbage because you cant control anything and also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium with D3 because if you gutload yoyr feeders there should be no reason to.

He seemed very confident of this and Ive seen his chameleons and they look fantastic and suoer healthy.

He also told me that night time temps should stay pretty much the same as daytime temps 79F since they are captive bread.

He also told me that there shouldnt just be a single basking spot but more along the lines of basking spots, if not this creats cold air pockets and the chameleon will be less limely to drink and lead to dehydration.

Im leaning towards believing him as Ive seen his shoo and his chams and they are amazing and purely healthy.

Anythoughts?
Hes been a certified breeder for over 30yrs

 

[Beman]

So I just spoke with a very reputible breeder here In Montreal Canada, he told me that screen enclosures are garbage because you cant control anything and also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium with D3 because if you gutload yoyr feeders there should be no reason to.

He seemed very confident of this and Ive seen his chameleons and they look fantastic and suoer healthy.

He also told me that night time temps should stay pretty much the same as daytime temps 79F since they are captive bread.

He also told me that there shouldnt just be a single basking spot but more along the lines of basking spots, if not this creats cold air pockets and the chameleon will be less limely to drink and lead to dehydration.

Im leaning towards believing him as Ive seen his shoo and his chams and they are amazing and purely healthy.

Anythoughts?
Hes been a certified breeder for over 30yrs

So there are many breeders that do many different things.... The thing about this is you then need to mimic what they do with everything.

Like if they run multiple daylight bulbs this warms the cage differently. If they have a solarmeter then they can monitor and know exactly what the UVI is that their UVB bulbs are putting off...

IF a cham is under a UVI of 2-3 then they are able to make their own D3. D3 two times a month is the insurance policy... The just in case.

I do not agree with not supplementing just because you gutload...

I only provide 1 basking spot in a 4 foot wide enclosure... Now I run 3 T5 bulbs so this warms the basking level to about 75-77 without the heat fixture. But I have a warmer spot for him to go into if he needs or wants it. I will tell you he rarely uses it.

What I have seen in this hobby is everyone thinks they are right. But what works for one may not work for another because the set up is different or the gutload or the feeder or the fixtures etc.

When you stick to the basics and provide those your better off... IMO

 

[Beman]

Ohhhh and about the screen enclosures... people forget it is not a 1 size fits all approach. Different areas with different environments do better with different enclosures. But I do have all hybrid enclosures and I will tell you I find it so much easier to stabilize my temps and my humidity levels with them.

 

[MattandRicco]

Ohhhh and about the screen enclosures... people forget it is not a 1 size fits all approach. Different areas with different environments do better with different enclosures. But I do have all hybrid enclosures and I will tell you I find it so much easier to stabilize my temps and my humidity levels with them.

Thank you very much! Amazing feed back

 

[Beman]

Thank you very much! Amazing feed back

Your welcome. It is a very interesting thing when your brand new to the hobby. You get these people that influence you. You believe and trust in one way. The truth is there are many ways. Many different things. It is finding what is best for your species and your environment that is important. It is why I love what Bill puts out on the Chameleon Academy website. He gives you basics with the detail and explanation to understand them.

 

[MattandRicco]

Yes!!! Ive been listening to alot of his podcasts....totally love him!

Also what temps do you recommend the water be at for my mist king?

There is no dripper so I mist 3 times a day

8am 10mins
12pm 15mins
4:45pm 10mins

 

[MattandRicco]

Your welcome. It is a very interesting thing when your brand new to the hobby. You get these people that influence you. You believe and trust in one way. The truth is there are many ways. Many different things. It is finding what is best for your species and your environment that is important. It is why I love what Bill puts out on the Chameleon Academy website. He gives you basics with the detail and explanation to understand them.

Yes!!! Ive been listening to alot of his podcasts....totally love him!

Also what temps do you recommend the water be at for my mist king?

There is no dripper so I mist 3 times a day

8am 10mins
12pm 15mins
4:45pm 10mins
Quote Reply

 

[PabloTheCham]

Lol the water can be abmient temp, i don't know of anyone that regulates their water... If the ambient temp for your cham is right, the water will be the same temp.

 

[MattandRicco]

Lol the water can be abmient temp, i don't know of anyone that regulates their water... If the ambient temp for your cham is right, the water will be the same temp.

Clearly you dont live in Canada where it gets to be -40 at night sometimes during the winter lol heat on it can still get cold especially if theres a draft, the water will get colder tgen the ambient temp

 

[PabloTheCham]

Clearly you dont live in Canada where it gets to be -40 at night sometimes during the winter lol heat on it can still get cold especially if theres a draft, the water will get colder tgen the ambient temp

Clearly you didnt read this part

If the ambient temp for your cham is right, the water will be the same temp.

unless, of course, you are keeping the reservoir in a different place then you are keeping your cham.

 

[MattandRicco]

Clearly you didnt read this part

unless, of course, you are keeping the reservoir in a different place then you are keeping your cham.

Sorry, Im talking about in the am the first spray.......at night temps can droo to 60F, so in the am the water is at 60F for the firsf spray until the room temp rises back to 75F

So that initial mist the water is at 60F which is pretty cold for a Cham who just woke up not that long ago or just in general.

Clearly you dont have winters because youd know exactly what I am talking about.

 

[PabloTheCham]

Sorry, Im talking about in the am the first spray.......at night temps can droo to 60F, so in the am the water is at 60F for the firsf spray until the room temp rises back to 75F

So that initial mist the water is at 60F which is pretty cold for a Cham who just woke up not that long ago or just in general.

Clearly you dont have winters because youd know exactly what I am talking about.

I think the water will adapt to the ambient temp as it rises... While the temp rises from 60 to 65 the water will follow, maybe you will end up with 70 water instead of 75... Anyway your cham will be fine, temps can go lower then 60. I actually wish i could drop my temps as low as you can.

 

[PabloTheCham]

8am 10mins
12pm 15mins
4:45pm 10mins

That seems like WAY too much misting... How is your day time humidity? If your humidity is under 30% you might want to get a room humidifier, misting for 10-15min seems excessive?! I mist exclusively while the lights are off... It seems you have a high daytime humidity and low night time humidity. It should be 40-60 during the day and 100 at night, not the other way around.

 

[MattandRicco]

That seems like WAY too much misting... How is your day time humidity? If your humidity is under 30% you might want to get a room humidifier, misting for 10-15min seems excessive?! I mist exclusively while the lights are off... It seems you have a high daytime humidity and low night time humidity. It should be 40-60 during the day and 100 at night, not the other way around.

Nope my humidity is around 40% daytime and 75% nightime

And 3 times a day at 10mins x2 and 15mins x1 isnt uncommon at all , my veiled takes at least 10mins of misting before he realizes its for drinking as well.

Veiled Chameleons are Native to Asir Province, along the southern west coast of Saudi Arabia and In Aden Yemen, Ive done a tone of research and in the Veiled Chameleons Native habbitats the humidity level is almost always above 60% as well as the temps always stay around 77F-86F even at night.

But I still follow the 30-50% Humidity during the daytime and 50-100% at nightime.

 

[Beman]

Yes!!! Ive been listening to alot of his podcasts....totally love him!

Also what temps do you recommend the water be at for my mist king?

There is no dripper so I mist 3 times a day

8am 10mins
12pm 15mins
4:45pm 10mins
Quote Reply

So I do not heat my water at all. I read a lot about the idea when I first started out because I did not understand how they would not need warmer water. Truth is it is not good for them. What is warm to us can feed hot to them. but besides that when you heat water in a reservoir your going to get bacteria. So I would not advice it. Think about it as far as nature... The rain is not warmed up for them.

So Here is the thing about the long mistings.... FOr your species it is a bit excessive... You want the cage to dry out during the day. You don't want to add a bunch of moisture to a hot enclosure that is not drying out. Bacteria grows and RI risk starts.

I do not run a dripper and I run a 2 minute misting 10 minutes before lights are on. Then 2 minutes at 5pm after my heat bulb has kicked off. and then 3 minutes at 6:30 thirty minutes before lights are out. They will drink with the shorter mistings. And not misting mid day allows the enclosure to dry and reduced daytime humidity. My night time humidity sits between 75-85%.
Take a look at this https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-environment/
and
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/

 

[MattandRicco]

So I do not heat my water at all. I read a lot about the idea when I first started out because I did not understand how they would not need warmer water. Truth is it is not good for them. What is warm to us can feed hot to them. but besides that when you heat water in a reservoir your going to get bacteria. So I would not advice it. Think about it as far as nature... The rain is not warmed up for them.

So Here is the thing about the long mistings.... FOr your species it is a bit excessive... You want the cage to dry out during the day. You don't want to add a bunch of moisture to a hot enclosure that is not drying out. Bacteria grows and RI risk starts.

I do not run a dripper and I run a 2 minute misting 10 minutes before lights are on. Then 2 minutes at 5pm after my heat bulb has kicked off. and then 3 minutes at 6:30 thirty minutes before lights are out. They will drink with the shorter mistings. And not misting mid day allows the enclosure to dry and reduced daytime humidity. My night time humidity sits between 75-85%.
Take a look at this https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-environment/
and
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/

Amazing! Thank you

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

So I just spoke with a very reputible breeder here In Montreal Canada, he told me that screen enclosures are garbage because you cant control anything

Different breeders can have different ideas & opinions, and may do things different ways. That's one reason for this forum to exist; the exchange & discussion of different ideas and ways of doing things, both to improve ourselves and advance the knowledge base for the hobby.

...and also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium with D3 because if you gutload yoyr feeders there should be no reason to.

In a perfect world, where everyone can & does gut load their feeders (those that can be gut loaded) with exactly the right stuff at exactly the right times, supplementation might not be necessary.

But where—exactly—is this perfect world, and how do I get there?

Even chameleons in the wild can suffer from various deficiencies. In some ways, we have a better chance of preventing that in captivity—healthier animals with longer lifespans.

My point is, if one can perfectly gut load their feeders all the time with the right stuff, that's great.
However I know I'm not perfect, and ? happens (sometimes before a chameleon eats), so a few supplements on occasion can help us compensate for the shortcomings. Think of it as insurance.

He also told me that there shouldnt just be a single basking spot but more along the lines of basking spots, if not this creats cold air pockets and the chameleon will be less limely to drink and lead to dehydration.

I'm skeptable [sic] about that second (bolded) part, but I'm on a similar page about basking. I mount my basking lights at an angle rather than straight down, and build basking spots at a slight incline as well. Both of these methods provide a range of basking temperatures, so the lizard can choose where s/he wants to bask.

Hes been a certified breeder for over 30yrs

??? ? TMK, there are no "certification" standards, processes, or authorities to "certify" reptile breeders.
If someone is representing such, I'd be smelling a scam of some sort.

 

[kinyonga]

In another thread...https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/is-my-chameleon-dying.178324/page-3#post-1606745
you asked..."Why phos free?"...
Then you said..."I read that phos counter acts the calcium"...the calcium and phos have to be in a 2:1 balance for healthy bones...since many of the insects we use as feeders have a bad ratio we dust with phos free calcium to make up for it.

Vitamin D3 and vitamin A also need to be in balance and the chameleon needs the proper amount of D3 to use the right amount of calcium too. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues which is why we only give it twice a month lightly and leave the chameleon to produce the rest of it from it's exposure to the UVB light we provide for it. Preformed vitamin A can also build up in the chameleon's system and lead to issues too. Hope this helps.

 

[MattandRicco]

Different breeders can have different ideas & opinions, and may do things different ways. That's one reason for this forum to exist; the exchange & discussion of different ideas and ways of doing things, both to improve ourselves and advance the knowledge base for the hobby.


In a perfect world, where everyone can & does gut load their feeders (those that can be gut loaded) with exactly the right stuff at exactly the right times, supplementation might not be necessary.

But where—exactly—is this perfect world, and how do I get there?

Even chameleons in the wild can suffer from various deficiencies. In some ways, we have a better chance of preventing that in captivity—healthier animals with longer lifespans.

My point is, if one can perfectly gut load their feeders all the time with the right stuff, that's great.
However I know I'm not perfect, and ? happens (sometimes before a chameleon eats), so a few supplements on occasion can help us compensate for the shortcomings. Think of it as insurance.


I'm skeptable [sic] about that second (bolded) part, but I'm on a similar page about basking. I mount my basking lights at an angle rather than straight down, and build basking spots at a slight incline as well. Both of these methods provide a range of basking temperatures, so the lizard can choose where s/he wants to bask.


??? ? TMK, there are no "certification" standards, processes, or authorities to "certify" reptile breeders.
If someone is representing such, I'd be smelling a scam of some sort.

Thanks for the info I may have misheard on the certified breeder, mayne he just said breedee for over 30 yrs

 

[MattandRicco]

In another thread...https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/is-my-chameleon-dying.178324/page-3#post-1606745
you asked..."Why phos free?"...
Then you said..."I read that phos counter acts the calcium"...the calcium and phos have to be in a 2:1 balance for healthy bones...since many of the insects we use as feeders have a bad ratio we dust with phos free calcium to make up for it.

Vitamin D3 and vitamin A also need to be in balance and the chameleon needs the proper amount of D3 to use the right amount of calcium too. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues which is why we only give it twice a month lightly and leave the chameleon to produce the rest of it from it's exposure to the UVB light we provide for it. Preformed vitamin A can also build up in the chameleon's system and lead to issues too. Hope this helps.

Thank you for the info ?