Dying Chameleon? Why?

[roo_71]

I'm very sorry I missed some of the info in the posts. I've had a rough day and am cranky ... seeing a dead cham added to that so I apologize for my bad assumptions.

I think calcium twice a week for a cham that young is pretty light though. I got my veiled at two months of age and was told by the breeder to dust with caclium daily and vitamins every other day ... but lightly on both suppliments.

I kind of doubt the night light had anything to do with her death. I keep reading and hearing that any type of heat light at night would most likely bother them since they can see it and heat really isnyt needed at night at all unless it drops into the 50's. Chams should have at least a 10 degree drop in temps at night. So the light and heat at night may have stressed her ... but to the point of dieing I just dont know.

Again, very sorry for your girl.

-roo

 

[SeanCJ]

Mandajo8- Can you post a picture of the enclosure this veiled was kept in and give us its dimensions and where in your house is was located? This might help us figure out if was an environmental issue and maybe we can spare the next cham from a similar issue.
Sounds like you did everything right in terms of feeding and lighting ect..with the exception of the cage size sounding a bit too big. Can you tell us your temperature and humidity levels, and how you watered this little gal?

 

[mandajo8]

Jose,
I understand what roo was trying to say, i was trying to explain to him that I had already covered those questions. You can say it's my fault she died, and maybe it is, but i'd rather be the one to decide that. and if roo is tired of "the constant posting of the noob questions and posts of why is he/she dead" let roo say it himself, as he's had no problem responding to me thus far. Maybe she did break her spine, that could very well be, but doing research as to WHY your Cham died helps in having better success with the next. as for saving money on the cage, i'd rather put my money into her food and calcium and lighting. the cage we made for her is the same size as the cages you can buy off of glasscages.com for Chams. if you're tired of reading questions about dead chams, then stop reading the posts about them. this is a forum meant for helping. and everyone else in here has been an enormous help to me.


Roo,
Everyone's entitled to cranky days i was just telling you that I had already answered those questions. No offense taken what so ever! And thank you for not taking any to mine!


SeanCJ,

I will absolutely take a picture of her enclosure and post on here. I am willing to do anything I can to learn more. I will have to ask on the humidity level, as my room mate did the misting during the day. Her water source came from an old pop bottle with a pin hole in the bottom. We establised a drip in one certain corner and eventually she learned where her water came from. We ran her water through a brita water filter before ever giving to her, as we do have bad water. We did that to her misting water also.

We couldn't find a big piece of wood that would reach high enough in her cage so we took branches and wedged them in every which direction in her cage, so that she had a way across to every corner and a way to go up or down easily. We did take some fake plants and wrap around some of the branches, to help give her a better grip, but all were cleaned and disinfected first. I have to admit, we hadn't gotten her a real plant yet. We have had a limited selection and I hadn't found one that was on the safe plant list for her.

Will check on the humidity and let you know as soon as i wake up tomorrow. Thanks again for all of the help and Jordan, thanks for informing me about Vitamin D3 and how often it should be given. Will have those pictures on here tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

[Chameleon Company]

Manda

Just saw the thread, and am sorry to hear of your loss post-facto. I did want to take the opportunity to provide some anecdotal experience, as all kinds of info has been thrown at you. My experience is based on raising thousands of chameleons, primarily panthers, but have worked with veileds also. Everything I tell you is "been there, done that .... in quantity".

Some of the info that you have received so far is good, and some of it seems to be out on a tangent. All appearances are that MBD was the causative agent. As with all MBD, you can back up and wonder about where you came up short, and that is an inexact determination as the animal has expired, and we are unable to make changes in husbandry to impact improvement in the animal in question.

From what I have read, I would make some suggestions. First off, I would put no faith in calcium delivery via gutloaded crickets. I would rely far more on dusting, using a calcium with D-3 for every dusting, and dusting as frequently as every other day. People can offer suggestions about how much is too much, but it is relative to your own set-up, and we can be pretty certain that what you did come up short, and could expect the same results next time if things are not changed. Crickets lose much of what is dusted on them, and if not eaten within 10-30 minutes, may lose it all. I have dusted crickets every other day with calcium with D-3 for chameleons in the bright sunshine with no adverse effects. Note that the D-3 concentrations in all commercial supplement products is exceedingly low, as the animals need very little. I have never seen a situation where I suspected D-3 toxicity using commercially dusted products on crickets.

As for the cage, the fall, etc. A healthy chameleon would have handled the fall with perhaps a bruise at best, and that's being overly wary. Your converted cage would not be a problem in that sense. If it had MBD, it was destined to suffer one way or the other. That would explain the fall. It would explain numerous bone fractures.

In the future, besides increasing the calcium dusting as noted, you will need to be more on the lookout for early stages of MBD. They can be observed, and the animal restored to health. Oh, start with buying a chameleon that is at least 5" total length. Once a week, hold it behind the head so as to agitate it, and when it opens its mouth in defense, take an appropriate sized finger, and let it bite you. A firm bite (you'll know, and you can survive it just fine) will also show complete rigidity of the jaw and all skull bones as it bites down. You need only be looking at the head, not closing your eyes and wincing (just kidding .... its not bad when they are smaller). The earliest stages of MBD will be seen this way. If there is any, you should see a folding in the head bones as it bites across the bridge of the skull, just in front of the eyes.

If and when MBD is observed, you know you need to increase calcium. The best way is to get a liquid calcium supplement. The cheapest good stuff, IMO, is via Ronnie Buck at www.cricketfood.com, on his supplements page. To my knowledge, he is selling Cal-Glucon. One drop per day for about every 20 grams of animal. You can see a vet as well, but he or she will give you the same or similar product. If you suspect advanced MBD, a trip to the vet is recommended, as more drastic initial intervention may be needed.

You can pull an animal out of the early stages of MBD in 3-4 weeks. If caught early, it will never advance to bow-leggedness or permanent deformation. Good luck.

 

[Creampuff]

I am no chameleon expert by any means but I know some about parasites that can take up all the nutrients from the host it is infecting. Could that be possible or when you took her home did you already take her to the vet and fix that problem? Could a parasite cause MDB?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Creampuff,
Parasites can be a problem with any animal, although they are not necessarily always a problem. I have never heard of a situation where a parasite caused MBD directly, although it is possible that a parasite could debilitate other aspects of the chameleon that would contribute to MBD, such as something that caused frequent regurgitation or diarhea. In such cases, there would be many more problems in line ahead of MBD, such that the MBD induced by parasite would be minimal while other breakdowns were major. MBD is pretty much as explained earlier ..... its an umbrella diagnosis with many different causes, all relating to the intake of usable calcium, or the ability to process it. Parasites just don't really figure into it.

 

[kinyonga]

Here's an article you might like to read...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/

The four main players in bone health are calcium, phosphorous, vitamin A and vitamin D3....there needs to be a balance between them. There were good articles about this on the ChameleonJournals web site, but unfortunately its down at the moment.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

As has been said, 90% of the MBD problems revolve around D3 and UVB. When lack of UVB is the culprit, we've seen how stores have sold UVB tubes in fixtures that have a clear plastic cover in front of the tube, filtering-out all of the UVB. One of these manufacturers (ESU) has been made aware of (a year ago) and acknowledged this "flaw" but has yet to implement a new design that they said they would look into. If there is any glass or plastic between the surface of the UVB tube and a basking spot then it must be removed or there will be MBD. On that same note, I have personally measured another keeper's fancy ESU 7.0 "U" shaped 21" tubes and they had virtually ZERO output band new. I have measured other std. 18" ESU tubes and found that they had reasonable uW/cm2 level. Bottom line: When in doubt, buy a Zoomed Reptisun 5.0 tube (online ~$14). I am completely confidant in the quality control of the mfgr supplying tubes under the Zoomed brand name. Make sure that if you are going to try with another chameleon, that he (get a male) can get within 6"-12" of the tube's surface when he wants to. Put all lights on top facing down. Oh, and if he can't get himself up to proper basking temps, UVB will be less effective.

 

[mandajo8]

Cham Company,

You have given me a lot to take in and think about, i appreciate it. Thank you for making your reponse detailed and informative. You had said something about Cricketfood.com and I actually had a question reguarding that site. I had been on the website numerous times looking at the cricket gutloading they have available. It comes recommended and it has the endorsements from a Vet. So am wondering whether I should invest in the premium cricket food they offer. I have a large enough aquarium i could raise my own crickets but would like some feedback on this product. any thoughts?

 

[lele]

roo is just saying chams dont die out of the blue. when a cham dies it is the fault of the owner and no other reason. plus im sure roo is tired of the constant posting of noob questions and posts of why is he/she dead? i know i am and i am fairly new.
if its not mbd like you say then she managed to break her spine pretty bad and thus trying to save money converting a ferret cage did not pay off.
jose

Ok, I need to put my 2 cents in here, Jose. Everyone was new to cham keeping at some point. I see YOU are quite new to chameleons yourself.

Sure, it is best if they do their research first from a variety of places, but many just take the advice of the pet store clerk and as we know their knowledge of chameleons is typically minimal or blatantly wrong. If you discourage someone from asking questions (new or not) they may be intimidated to ask more in the future - then what?

The goal is to help keepers have healthy animals in proper environments, so questions, tiresome or not, should not be discouraged. If you look at some of my recent posts you will see the series of questions, which covers most setup/regimen concerns and makes troubleshooting easier. It also lets the keeper see something they may be missing altogether.

As for "when a cham dies it is the fault of the owner and no other reason" this is NOT always the case. I am struggling with a chameleon with a serious eye problem. It might be cancer. If so, he may have the eye removed and probably will not die, HOWEVER, if he DID die directly or indirectly from this - is this MY fault?

So my (unsolicited) advice to you is to be more helpful when you post - especially when someone just lost their chameleon regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Chameleon Company]

A lot of people have success with their own specific gut-load regimens. Its probably often disussed in other threads here as well. Crickets by themselves can be raised on some very minimal (and inexpensive) things. Those of us who raise our own likely use the "cheap stuff" to raise the cricket. In my case, 50 lb bags of cricket and worm feed from the Feed Store at $10-12 per bag. I only go to my own "premium gutload", which includes stuff from Ronnie, for my crickets in the two hours before they are presented to the chameleons. Once I have separated out the thousands of crickets to be offered as food that day, in 5 differing sizes, those crickets get the good stuff. We do call it the "Last Supper", even if it is breakfast. Regardless of exactly what you use as your "best stuff", be it your own veggie-grain mix, something purchased, etc, if cost and or time regarding its preparation are an issue, you only need make it a "Last Supper" for your crickets, giving them about two hours exposure to it in a warm environment to maximize their activity and consumption. I do think that Ronnie's stuff is better than anything you can buy in a store, or from the larger commercial producers. He is a friend, and some of the work on those formulations was done here. The vet involved, Dr. Ivan Alfonso, is also a friend and my herd vet. I do not receive any financial compensation in any way from recommendations or sale of his product, just so you know ! Most good gutload formulations are broad based. I also must confess that it has been over six years since I last relied on artificial light as the source of UVB. I have been real Mother Nature since, and there is no "good" substitute, just acceptable ones. I could write droves about what some of what others have "illuminated" (pun intended) regarding commercial products, their shortfalls, etc. One thing you can take to the bank ..... the first and overwhelming priority of the manufacturer, what it says of its own product, label, marketing, etc., is to sell the product. Whether or not it is actually something you truly need, or will perform as you might expect, is secondary. They only need you to think its something you want to make the sale. As an example, if the label says "Vital for the health of your reptile", maybe it depends on how one define's "vital" We could write a book about this regarding reptile products alone. If I don't stop now, I never will .....

 

[mandajo8]

okay so Twist's light was a ZooMed 100W Full Spectrum circular bulb. It said on the box that it was full spectrum uva/uvb. We had that on her for 12 hours and then used a lower Watt bulb for her night, that had a blue tint to it.

Anyway here are the pictures of her cage. I hope this helps in some way...

Looking down from the door of the cage

Looking Up

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

Jim brings-up an important point: In addition to a UVB tube, if you can give access to unfiltered sunlight, even if it's only as little as an hour a week, you will be aiding in the prevention of MBD. Jim is in Florida and I'm in Southern California so no snow storms here like you have right now. I just put my 3 adults in their outdoor enclosures. It's 72F in the shade at 10:35am . I try to give them many hours of weekend sunshine. Last weekend was 58F and windy so no outside time .

 

[Dave Weldon]

...ZooMed 100W Full Spectrum circular bulb. It said on the box that it was full spectrum uva/uvb...

Howdy,
I believe you are using ZooMed's 100W mercury vapor, self-ballasted, UVB bulb. I'm not sure that it was the source of your problem. I personally don't recommend MV lamps for typical chameleon enclosures. It is thought that they are harder to set-up a thermal/UVB gradient with that type of combined UVB/UVA, visible light and heat source. These lamps tend to have a tight beam of high UVB. I prefer the broad output of a linear tube somewhere between 18" and 48" long depending on the enclosure. Your dense weave screen material probably blocks 50% of the UVB and the rest of the spectrum too.

Coming full circle... Watching what many long-term successful keepers use to keep individual critters healthy for many (4 to 5++) years is a good baseline to work from. There is a fairly proven formula for success (start a new post for that topic ). Modifying single or multiple variables from these proven methods may or may not end in poor health. As a living creature, some chameleons adapt better to husbandry errors and make-up (or at least tolerate better) for the loss and others will go downhill.

 

[chamelie]

My Baby Girl Chamelie

Hi my name is Angela I just brougt my chameleon to the vet for the same exat thing except that she wasnt turning dark like that.

she fell from the top of her cage when I wasnt home, my boyfreind had told me.. she began not eaing, basicly grounded herself so I thought she might have been eggbound and they gave her a shot deal to have her lay eggs but in the end she wasnt eggbound at all didnt even lay. So I wait a cuple weeks as I continue to hand feed her fruit and vegi a dipping wax worms in them after I would squish all the fruit so it was soft, but she didnt have any kind of appitite anymore as like yours she went a week w/o eating a thing so I just brought her in today for the second time at like11:00AM Nov.23.2009 and got a X-Ray of her, turns out that her legs had barley any bone in them as like one strand of hair thick, idk how she got so bad she was so spoild I had pamperd her and of course calcium every day for a juvi chameleon.

Mine had her mouth open alot even came to the point of sticking her toung out and not putting it away and turnng just a PAIL green with orange/yellow stripes very noticable. I new she was in pain I had to make a decition after I saw that X-Ray, tryin not to break down with her in my hand on her huge flower just lifeless and holding her mouth open just in pain I ended up putting her down for her own good, I couldnt be selfih anmore and have the cruil way of nature kill her anymore just so could see her everyday and cry anywase b.cuz of her condition crawling at the bottom of her cage haven her wonderg why she cant make t to the top stressing her out, I went to the extreme for her I even flipped her cage on its side so it wasnt as high and "un fun"

I took her home so I could bary her even got a clay deal w. her feet on it

Your right you people who dont cherish your chameleon you should start b.cuz these things just happen an dont you want to say that nobody could have gave her a better HAPPIER life than yourself, I no that statemnt is true for me I KNOW that she had the best lif with me scense day 1 of adopting her

So I say I' sorry for your baby and the best of luck

And I say good bye Chamelie we had a run together with you pulling cutes never a dull moment moving fast trying to be a leaf blowing in the wind made me smile only happy toughts

thanks for reading

Angela and Chamelie
have a great night

 

[chamelie]

1 more pic of the clay

 

[jerrybravo]

Me too

This is happening to my chameleon right now and he has been opening his mouth like a few times and changed colors to really dark and now hes light colored , and a few weeks ago we went on vacation and left him with my uncle and it sounded like he was feeding him right the whole week but the chameleon has been spending time on the ground alot since we came back and he has his eyes closed a few times and his mouth is open And now he's almost laying there with his mouth open and it looks like he can't breath

 

[heartben]

take it to the vet. if you had some clues a few weeks ago, you shouldve gone to the vet a few weeks ago. i am no expert whatsoever but when you need help with an urgent matter on a forum its going to save everyone (including your cham) time if you take pictures and fill out the how to ask for help form.

not trying to be mean, i know not everyone has money for vet visits and stuff but.. this is a life. ya know? you may have started a new thread and i haven't seen it so dont take offense.

 

[dreamforthedead]

roo is just saying chams dont die out of the blue. when a cham dies it is the fault of the owner and no other reason. plus im sure roo is tired of the constant posting of noob questions and posts of why is he/she dead? i know i am and i am fairly new.
if its not mbd like you say then she managed to break her spine pretty bad and thus trying to save money converting a ferret cage did not pay off.
jose

I think that is unfair to say if a chameleon dies its the owners fault i've not lost any of mine but i know many people on here who have done everything they can for the chameleon and its still died. Also saying converting a ferret cage to save money is uncalled for, i used to keep ferrets and if its the kinda cage i think it is then with a bit of converting would make a brill home for a chameleon. Many people convert things to house a chameleon yes most do to save money but a lot do it to give their chameleon a lot more space then they would get in an all screen/glass. I just think saying things about the cage was a pretty pointless dig.

 

[dreamforthedead]

okay so Twist's light was a ZooMed 100W Full Spectrum circular bulb. It said on the box that it was full spectrum uva/uvb. We had that on her for 12 hours and then used a lower Watt bulb for her night, that had a blue tint to it.

Anyway here are the pictures of her cage. I hope this helps in some way...

Looking down from the door of the cage

Looking Up

The set up looks great for a young chameleon the only thing i would say that could of made her fall is the branches are to thick for her little hands to get a good grip on to. Everything else looks grand to me, my memory is shocking so sorry if you've already answered this what was the night temps? Just chameleons don't normally need any heat at night unless it drops way below 65f..