Dying baby yemens

[vetdebbie]

Hi all

I am a bit puzzled about my baby yemens and was loking for some input. I had a clutch of 38 eggs laid on 8/9/09 (sorry 9/8/09 for you yanks ). 2 went mouldy a couple of months into incubation, but all the rest hatched over a period of about 4 weeks from 28th april to 4 days ago. Incubation temperature was 83-84'F ish with an approximately 8 degree night time drop. I had an unintentional diapause as it turned out that my incubator couldn't keep up with our unexpected cold winter, so for a period of about 2 weeks, then temperature was maxing out at about 76. I then had a heat spike for no reason at all that I could see - basically I went away for 4 days (3 nights) and temps were ok, when I got back it was reading 93'F. To add to my confusion, my thermometer started randomly reading the wrong temperature (like 50'f) about a week ago, so not sure if it was faulty before.

Anyway back to the point. The babies are getting to 10-14 days old, looking good, then starting to present with closed eyes and sitting with their heads very upright. Obviously they then do not eat or drink, and die usually in 24-36 hours. It is not all of them, but I think it is going to be about 90%. I've filled in the relevant sections of the health guide for you.


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Yemens, mother is coming up 2, father is well over 4, both owned since about 12 weeks, no health issues.
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? the babies only to remove into the cage from the incubator
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Fruit flies and microcrix. Crix gutloaded on a variety of proprietary brand gut loads ( i have 2 and alternate), with some fresh veg/carrot/whatever else I have to hand. Feeding FF twice daily, plus crix once daily in the am.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Dusting - little for first week as mainly on FF and they are hard to dust, plus want to get them reliably eating. Then pure calcium dust every other feed, plus have dusted 2 feeds with nutrobal and 1 or 2 with T-rex chameleon dust in the last 4 weeks.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? Hand misting twice daily for a couple of minutes or so - until the cage is dripping. Dries out in between. Have seen some babies drinking when healthy
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Normal faeces/urates produced, no faecals performed (or on parents for that matter, whose faeces have also always been normal)
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. As above

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? The first half of the clutch went into a Zoomed reptibreeze, the small size which I believe is 16"x16"x20". The second half ( not exactly only 12 max) went in to a small exo terra 12"x12"x12"
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Zoomed - a 15" exoterra 5% directly over the mesh initally but raised later. This bulb had been in use for about 2 months before this. The exo - a compact 5% UV also exo terra - bulb towards the end of it's useful life (will be replaced shortly) Lights on a timer, on at about 7.30am, off at 9.30pm.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? Zoomed - basking bulb on a stat, set to prove 83-85'F in the basking area. Exoterra no additonal heat as tends to get to this kind of temperature anyway - it has been in use for baby pygmies for 2-3 years and I have trouble cooling it down). The ambient temp in the room is between 72 and 76 during the day depending on weather. All temps measured with digital thermometers with a max/min function. All heat off overnight - lowest temp has been 62'f recently
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? I am leaving them at ambient room humidity which varies from 50-75% (execpt immediately after spraying when it will increase.) The vivs are in a dedicated cham room with a mister on a timer so ambient humidity varies during the day anyway. Measured with a digital hygrometer (several in fact). At oen point the humidity was consistently high so I had to put fans in the room until I could sort out better ventilation, but only the first 8 or 9 babies were exposed to this
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? All fake at the moment for ease of cleaning
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cages in a dedicated cham room, no traffic, on a bench at room height. Fans briefly on but aimed away from cages.
Location - Where are you geographically located? South coast of England

I know this has been a really long post, but it is upsetting to watch these guys die, especially as I have another 44 eggs in the incubator. If any one has any helpful suggestions I will willingly take them on board for next time.

 

[jannb]

Get that compact light out. They have been know to cause eye problems. Also you are keeping them too warm. I keep my babies at 80 tops.

 

[vetdebbie]

Thank you for your input about the temperatures - I will turn it down.

However the compact light is not present in one cage where most of the babies have been housed (all remaining ones are), UV is provided via a strip. So that cannot be causing the problem in those babies. (ignoring the point that the compact uv's causing the problem were the 10% exo terras, plus they have been redesigned since that issue).

I deliberately used a different cage with a different set up on the second batch to hatch to see if there was a difference. Obviously the exo terra tends to be more humid and slightly cooler (as there is no separate basking light). However the temperature probably still does max at 82-83.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

Are the babies being auto misted? I would only hand mist, being careful not to hit the babies with water, but watering the surrounding branches and plant leaves, for them to drink from. I mist once in the morning, and put a small dripped running during the day.
The fine mist of a hand mister, or auto system can mess with the eyes and respiratory system. If sprayed directly on the babies.

 

[vetdebbie]

I hand mist the babies - the auto mister is way too much for them! I do try and avoid direct spraying, although it is very hard (was very hard ) when there were 15 or so in the one viv.

 

[Carlton]

Heads tipped straight up reminds me of a cham who is having difficulty breathing or has just finished a long drink. Do these babies show any signs of respiratory distress (gulping over and over, extended gular, gaping and pawing at the air with head tipped straight up)? I know that its easy for tiny hatchlings to aspirate water droplets that are too big. They can almost drown from this. Does your hand mister produce very fine droplets (such as those used for African violets)? Might be part of the problem. An ultrasonic fogger might help too.

 

[vetdebbie]

I have seen one or two affected ones gulp but certainly not all, and no other obvious respiratory signs. I assumed resp problems as well at first, and did try one or two with some oral baytril to no avail, with isolation etc etc. (Part of the reason I chose to use the exoterra for the later hatching batch as it provided more separation.) I still haven't ruled it out, but I want to know what the cause is!

I am just struggling to work out what aspect of my husbandry has been common to both groups of hatchlings to cause the same signs in both. I can come up with incubation, food, temperatures and misting.

Misting
I use a pump-up sprayer similar in design to this:
http://www.hozelock.com/spraying/indoor-sprayers/spraymist/4122A-spraymist-1-25-litre.html
It provides small droplets but not a fine spray, at least no where near as fine as the misting system does.

I haven't used a fogger in years - do they work well in all screen terrariums?

Temperatures
Kind of already covered - they have been lowered to reading 79 this evening

Food
Don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but did wonder whether I had either over or underdone the multivits. - Any thoughts anyone?

Incubation
Well the temperature spike certainly worried me, but I was puzzled why it would take this time period to become apparent.





I have been thinking a bit more about UV. While it cannot be purely a compact uv issue as the first batch of hatchlings weren't exposed to it, I may have inadvertantly overdone the UV exposure anyway. In using these cage previously for adult rudis and a young panther (obtained at 12-14 weeks old), I have always just rested the strip on the top of the mesh. There is a slight lip on the reptibreeze, so the UV sits about 3/4" above it. Now the adult rudis and the panther didn't hang upside down from the mesh - the baby yemens do! A lot! I did originally raise it but may be not enough. However it doesn't explain why the batch in the exo started showing signs - but I concede they have been exposed to a compact Uv, so may be I am wrong about them..............

 

[Carlton]

Well, I do know that many of us had hatchling veileds hanging upside down on the cage mesh right under a ReptiSun and they developed just fine.

There is always the chance that something happened during incubation that weakened this clutch in particular. If the temp spike or drop you mentioned happened at a critical time....

Ultrasonic foggers can work fine in screen cages and many of us use them. If you use an ultrasonic room humidifier with a removable spout on top of the reservoir you can attach a length of flexible tubing or pvc pipe to it, run it through an opening in the mesh (unless you have the fog decending through the top where it can condense and drip) and create periods of fog and drying with a lamp timer. The condensed droplets can collect on foliage and provide drinking and general cage humidity for those tiny lungs.

 

[vetdebbie]

Well, I do know that many of us had hatchling veileds hanging upside down on the cage mesh right under a ReptiSun and they developed just fine.

There is always the chance that something happened during incubation that weakened this clutch in particular. If the temp spike or drop you mentioned happened at a critical time....

Ultrasonic foggers can work fine in screen cages and many of us use them. If you use an ultrasonic room humidifier with a removable spout on top of the reservoir you can attach a length of flexible tubing or pvc pipe to it, run it through an opening in the mesh (unless you have the fog decending through the top where it can condense and drip) and create periods of fog and drying with a lamp timer. The condensed droplets can collect on foliage and provide drinking and general cage humidity for those tiny lungs.

Good point about the reptisun.

I'll look into foggers again- the last one I used was rubbish but was a reptile branded one so I'll do a little research on what you suggest.

The cooler part of incubation was at about 3.5 - 4 months, the spike right towards the end - 4 weeks before hatching. I have a concern about the eggs still in the incubator - they were at about the 3 month stage at that time. ALl eggs look ok, are well veined etc. We shall see when they hatch I guess. I hope they are ok.

 

[Carlton]

Good point about the reptisun.

Yeah, I haven't had much luck with the so called "terrarium foggers". A good old $30 ultrasonic room humidifier (try a Sunbeam or Holmes) from a pharmacy or home improvement store is designed for longer term use and they seem to hold up better. Use demineralized or RO water in it though. One main reason they fail is hard water deposits building up on the nebulizer disk and sensor. I clean mine with vinegar regularly and follow up with a 1:10 bleach:water solution.

 

[vetdebbie]

We have RO for the marine tank so that part is easy.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Original temps were a bit high (i use no heat at all, just keep babies in a warm room around 75Fday), but otherwise I dont see anything particularily concerning about your husbandry.

I wonder if maybe they were weak to start with, in terms of their egg development. I hope the remaining ones do better!

 

[vetdebbie]

The next lot will be kept cooler from the start. I don't know whether I would prefer it to be a general weakness in the eggs or a problem with my husbandry. The first is beyond my control, so I couldn't blame myself - however the second I can do something about!

I am dreading the second clutch hatching now rather than looking forward to it. . Not to mention mum is looking distinctly plump again, although she hasn't been mated since December.

 

[vetdebbie]

By the way I have 10 left in the cage, 8 of whom seem 100% fine and 2 of whom I see closing their eyes occasionally - however these guys also will drink and eat as I have watched them closely. There is 1 little guy left in my isolation tank so is hanging on in there. To be honest I was expecting him to be dead by last night, but this morning he is quite active and had something stuck in his mouth, although I have not see him once open his eyes. I cleaned his mouth out and gently wiped his eyes so I know they are not gummed shut. It's all a waiting game.