Double Trouble

[philanddeb818]

When we received him, one of our Chams had a frothy mouth. We contacted the breeder. He assured us, he'd been over-hydrated prior to shipping and if it continued to let him know. (BTW, This breeder will remain anonymous and is very well versed in all things Chameleon. We only know him to be a wonderfully caring person).

The frothiness appeared to go away so we said yippee and got on with life as usual with our project. The froth intermittently showed up. We contacted the breeder again who then recommended Reptiaid. We administered the Reptaid and the frothiness appeared to go away. The breeder advised a vet visit if the Reptaid did not do the trick.

The frothiness reoccurred this week and a day ago it became so bad that the little guy’s lips laterally curled outward. We forced hydration, raised humidity and rushed him to the vet this morning.

Meanwhile, while we’re placing all our attention on this little guy, Phil noticed one of the girls napping during the day…A WARNING SIGN. I made an appointment for her for Saturday when our regular vet would be in. Phil showed up at my work with her this afternoon. She looked as though she was dead, when only this morning she was pink and pretty but sleepy. (Moral of the story is NEVER WAIT!)

I left work early and we rushed her to the Doctor. She was still breathing, but both eyes were closed and her color truly looked as though she’d expired. We don’t know if she’s going to make it through the night. The Doc says it looks bad. She will be placed in an incubator to stay comfortable given hydration and meds.

We suspect this:

We bought organic soil and sterilized sand to create egg pots for all the girls. Two days ago, Phil found two beetles in the soil of two girl’s cages. (One beetle per cage). Phil removed and examined the beetles finding them to be quite hard cased (obviously not a good choice to feed).

You can fill in the blanks. We think she may have eaten one of these hard beetles and may suffer an impaction. The Doc said in her weakened state, she would not survive anesthesia, we agree. If she pulls through however, we can get an X-ray to see if there is an impaction. And if she is strong enough, we’ll see what more can be done for her. The situation looks grim.

Back to the frothy Cham; the Doctor’s outlook was good, stating he has a mouth infection and possible URI. Baytril is to be administered for 10 days.

My concern is of course, what is the underlying cause of this infection? I’m worried. Sorry this is so long.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I have had a chameleon with stomatitis, which I think was caused from too big of a cockroach (that fought back)
It's hard to detect and I actually lost my chameleon and discovered the infection afterward.
There was no foaming at the mouth with mine.
Are you sure the beetles aren't darkling beetles?
Do you feed supers or mealworms?
Is she gravid?

-Brad

 

[cushcameleon]

It must be hard dealing with multiple sick chameleons at one time, even dealing with one sick chameleon can be very stressful. Hang in there. I wish you luck.

 

[Miss Lily]

Poor little girl! Fingers crossed that she shows some improvement.

 

[philanddeb818]

I have had a chameleon with stomatitis, which I think was caused from too big of a cockroach (that fought back)
It's hard to detect and I actually lost my chameleon and discovered the infection afterward.
There was no foaming at the mouth with mine.
Are you sure the beetles aren't darkling beetles?
Do you feed supers or mealworms?
Is she gravid?

-Brad

Thanks for your post, Brad. We looked up Darkling Beetles and Phil agrees this IS the beetle he pulled from the cages. We feed supers as an occasional treat and she had eaten one the day she became "sleepy."

She was not gravid.

 

[philanddeb818]

Update: She lost the battle

For those having read this thread, I thought I should post this update.

We lost our girl in the night. The hospital just called to let us know. She was just too weak to fight the Doctor said. Unfortunately no X-ray was taken.

My heart is broken.

On the brighter side:
Our little boy seems to be doing well, his mouth is still a bit frothy and he is expected to continue to have this appearance until around the fifth day of receiving his antibiotic.

We'll see if the Doctor finds anything after the fecal float test.

 

[Miss Lily]

Aww, that's so sad. Sorry you lost her - it's just heartbreaking to lose a cham. Thinking of you.

 

[philanddeb818]

Aww, that's so sad. Sorry you lost her - it's just heartbreaking to lose a cham. Thinking of you.

Gives Miss Lily a kiss and hug and warm thanks.
_______________________________________________________________
I just found this bit on the Darkling Beetle which Brad mentioned earlier in the thread.

Various Darkling Beetles from the family Tenebrionidae (same family as mealworms). Texas has a huge diversity of them. I found all these guys wandering on the road looking for organic matter to eat. You can also find them under boards and things on the side of the road in Central and South Texas. Grasshopper Mice eat them, but they secrete this toxic liquid out of their anus, the mice counter this by eating them head first and allowing the toxic to drip out.

 

[Chuck G]

Did you get the chams from the same breeder?

 

[cushcameleon]

I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[philanddeb818]

I am so sorry for your loss.

Thank you Cushcameleon. Your warmth is appreciated.

BTW, I'd love an update on what's happening with your Cham's condition as soon as you're able...

Take care,
Deb

 

[jojackson]

The frothing rings 'respitory issue' bells with me Deb/Phil, but curled lips is pointing to localised mouth infection and the overall look of it sounds like systemic infection thats built up over time. (the female)
[Edit: Females passing and cause posted while posting.]
Often infections in reptiles take some time to materialise symptoms, by which time they are usually somewhat advanced.
Hopefully the baytril will do some good, though I dont like the drug really, its quite harsh and in my op, rather over-prescribed for blanket like treatment of anything amongst the more clueless vets.
Sorry you guys lost the girl, as they say, sometimes S*** just happens!
Thanks for the update and its vital information too. Though I wouldnt deliberately feed beetles, I will be now be very vigilent about supers escaping and morphing in the plant pots etc. You may just have saved a few others chams!
Every cloud has a silver lining!
Best wishes

 

[philanddeb818]

The frothing rings 'respitory issue' bells with me Deb/Phil, but curled lips is pointing to localised mouth infection and the overall look of it sounds like systemic infection thats built up over time. (the female)
[Edit: Females passing and cause posted while posting.]
Often infections in reptiles take some time to materialise symptoms, by which time they are usually somewhat advanced.
Hopefully the baytril will do some good, though I dont like the drug really, its quite harsh and in my op, rather over-prescribed for blanket like treatment of anything amongst the more clueless vets.
Sorry you guys lost the girl, as they say, sometimes S*** just happens!
Thanks for the update and its vital information too. Though I wouldnt deliberately feed beetles, I will be now be very vigilent about supers escaping and morphing in the plant pots etc. You may just have saved a few others chams!
Every cloud has a silver lining!
Best wishes

Thanks Joe for your kind thoughts. It’s good to turn to our forum friends for support.

It was Brad’s questions about weather or not she’d received Supers or Mealworms, which shed light on the morphing beetles. (Thanks again Brad).

And the frothy mouth is actually looking quite good today. He’s drinking and eating like a like a champ and the wet looking froth is now drying out. The lateral curl of the lip-line is less apparent on one side which seems to be a rather quick response to medication.

I suspect, as you, there is an underlying problem. This is the very frightening part to me. Again, I will get a fecal float done this week and am hopeful something will be revealed. We'll keep you guys posted.



Cheers,
Deb