Does it look like he has MBD?

[Bemo]

I have had my Cham for a month, I believe he is about 7-8 months. He seems to be healthy based off of his behavior, eating, sleeping habits. I feed him gutloaded crickets with calcium daily and with D3 once a month (twice so far). I am new to the cham world and now that I have had him for a month I am beginning to worry he could have MBD? Not sure if I am just overly concerned though, but I have been comparing many photos and I feel like his legs are slightly more bowed and knotty than normal.

The last picture if you can see it, his front legs are bowed.
Hopefully these photos come up large enough...

 

[ridgebax1]

I am far from an expert and not a whole lot of experience, but I agree with you his front leg does look odd. His elbow angle seems kind of rounded. In the second picture he looks like he has some gular edema. I know that some chams can get that for no apparent reason and it can come and go. There is a link at the top of the health clinic area that says "how to ask for help" It is a comprehensive form about your cham and your husbandry technique. It is very helpful as it lets the other experienced keepers look over what you are doing and advise you as to any corrections that need to be made. However I would make an appointment with a reptile experienced vet and get him checked out.

 

[JaclynCali]

I am far from an expert and not a whole lot of experience, but I agree with you his front leg does look odd. His elbow angle seems kind of rounded. In the second picture he looks like he has some gular edema. I know that some chams can get that for no apparent reason and it can come and go. There is a link at the top of the health clinic area that says "how to ask for help" It is a comprehensive form about your cham and your husbandry technique. It is very helpful as it lets the other experienced keepers look over what you are doing and advise you as to any corrections that need to be made. However I would make an appointment with a reptile experienced vet and get him checked out.

I agree with you. His arms look like they are bowing out . Do you have a UVB light over him?

 

[Decadancin]

There does seem to be a rounding of the arm at the elbow and maybe the wrist. I doubt this is from your husbandry techniques, considering you have only had him a month. (Wouldn't hurt to fill out the form, though...)
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/
Do you have a good reptile vet in your area? might want to get him checked out and treated now to help prevent more damage so he can live a long and healthy life with you!
Another great resource for learning all things chameleon if you haven't seen it...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/chameleons/
And a section on MBD that is one of the sticky threads in this health section can give some great insight.

By the way, Welcome to the forums!
Best of luck with your little one!

 

[Bemo]

Thanks for the input. I am searching for a reputable exotic pet vet in my area today. Even though I have only had him a month, I am going to fill out the husbandry questions so I can refer back to it in the future.

Here is some recommended information to include when asking for help in the health clinic forum. By providing this information, you will receive more accurate and beneficial responses. It might not be necessary to answer all these questions, but the more you provide the better. Please remember that even the most knowledgeable person can only guess at what your problem may be. Only an experienced reptile veterinarian who can directly examine your animal can give a true diagnosis of your chameleon's health.


Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Veiled male, approx 7-8 months old. I have had him for one month.

Handling - I handle him a 3-4 times a week

Feeding - I feed him crickets, gutloaded with fruits, greens/vegetables, some various nuts/seeds in the morning and I feed him 12-15 crickets around 5 in the evening. Occasional superworm

Supplements - Every feeding I spray the crickets with Zilla calcium supplements and once a month (twice so far) I dust them with flukers calcium with D3

Watering - I hand mist 3 times a day for approx 3-5 minutes. I see my cham drinking straight from bottle, licking and eating leaves.

Fecal Description - Cham has bowel movements daily and fecal is one dark solid potion and a slightly less solid white portion. He has not been tested for parasites.

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Reptibreeze 18 x 18 x 36

Lighting - Reptiglo 26watt 5.0 and a basking light 75watts. Lights on 745, off 730.

Temperature - Day time temp range from 88-92, ambient 72. Night time temps mid 60s. I measure the temps by moving around the gauge to various spots.

Humidity - Humidity fluctuates from 50s to 70s with mistings. I am maintaining levels with mistings, live plants and covering a couple sides with shower curtain in need be.

Plants - I am using live plants. The large one I cannot remember the exact name. Shaff....something. But I did verify that it was a safe plant for my cham.

Placement -The cage is in a moderately high traffic area in my dining room. The top of the cage is approximately 5.5 feet from floor.

Location - Toledo, Ohio

 

[Decadancin]

Whenever you go to the vet it is a great idea to bring the filled out form with you. It helps the diagnosis and saves some time asking questions.

 

[Bemo]

I have an appointment this Monday, hopefully I found a vet that knows what they are doing! The vet visit cost alone pretty expensive. I will update.

 

[camimom]

The arm does appear to be bowed, which is a sign of MBD.

Please know that you cannot reverse the damage from MBD, but you can halt the progression of the disease.

Also, your supplementing isn't quite right.

The zilla spray is not formulated properly.

What you want is a calcium with no d3 powder, to be used on every feeding, a calcium with d3 powder to be used twice a month, and a multivitamin to be used twice a month. Or you need to purchase repashy all in one calcium plus, which is formulated to include all of the above, but can be used on every feeding, with no need to switch back and forth between other powders.

As im sure the weather is turning in Ohio, it may be too cold, but if you have any days where the temps are mid 70's or higher, please take him outside. the natural sun can work wonders for mbd chams.

I would also reduce the amount of handling time for now, so as not to accidently cause damage to the already weakened bones.

His cage- at his age, he can handle the 2x2x4 foot cage, and as close to being an adult as he is, will need it anyway. I suggest upgrading.

Watering- I suggest either purchasing an auto mister, or misting more often. at least 5 times a day.

If you can, try purchasing some silkworms, probably from an online seller, and try feeding those daily. they have a great calcium content in them.

Varying his bug intake is also really good for him as well.

WHen you go to the vet, ask them to do a calcium level check, this can tell you exactly where his levels are. they may just say change your supplements, or they may put him on a liquid calcium to stabilize his numbers.
IF you are unsure of his diagnosis and treatment plan, post the info here, and other members or some of our vets who are members here, can give you advice.


I hope this helps!

Good luck!

 

[Bemo]

The arm does appear to be bowed, which is a sign of MBD.

Please know that you cannot reverse the damage from MBD, but you can halt the progression of the disease.

Also, your supplementing isn't quite right.

The zilla spray is not formulated properly.

What you want is a calcium with no d3 powder, to be used on every feeding, a calcium with d3 powder to be used twice a month, and a multivitamin to be used twice a month. Or you need to purchase repashy all in one calcium plus, which is formulated to include all of the above, but can be used on every feeding, with no need to switch back and forth between other powders.

As im sure the weather is turning in Ohio, it may be too cold, but if you have any days where the temps are mid 70's or higher, please take him outside. the natural sun can work wonders for mbd chams.

I would also reduce the amount of handling time for now, so as not to accidently cause damage to the already weakened bones.

His cage- at his age, he can handle the 2x2x4 foot cage, and as close to being an adult as he is, will need it anyway. I suggest upgrading.

Watering- I suggest either purchasing an auto mister, or misting more often. at least 5 times a day.

If you can, try purchasing some silkworms, probably from an online seller, and try feeding those daily. they have a great calcium content in them.

Varying his bug intake is also really good for him as well.

WHen you go to the vet, ask them to do a calcium level check, this can tell you exactly where his levels are. they may just say change your supplements, or they may put him on a liquid calcium to stabilize his numbers.
IF you are unsure of his diagnosis and treatment plan, post the info here, and other members or some of our vets who are members here, can give you advice.


I hope this helps!

Good luck!

I was concerned about using the spray since I haven't heard it mentioned here. It was the only thing available at the pet store at the time of my visit and the instructions suggest it is for the same purpose. So that is one change I will make right away. Pretty much the only reason I have been handling him lately is to take advantage of the nice weather while we can, so I handle him only to take him to a house plant on my porch. Thanks for the suggestion on silk worms, I will look into that as well. An automister is the next big purchase on my list, but the vet visit may push that back a bit. I basically mist, give the enclosure time to dry out short intervals and then mist again. Based off of my close observation, I think any more misting would create mold issues.

Thanks for your advice!

 

[camimom]

most stores don't carry the plain no d3 calcium for some reason.

youll have to order online.

If your porch is glass, then the good uvb doesn't get through, if its screen though, you are fine.

Just so you know, th basic mistking system is 99 bucks. for when you are ready.

I mist every two hours for 1 minute, and have no mold issues at all.

 

[Bemo]

most stores don't carry the plain no d3 calcium for some reason.

youll have to order online.

If your porch is glass, then the good uvb doesn't get through, if its screen though, you are fine.

Just so you know, th basic mistking system is 99 bucks. for when you are ready.

I mist every two hours for 1 minute, and have no mold issues at all.

Well that explains why I had such a hard time finding it! Porch is completely open, I take him out there when I have time to sit with him...because I am an overly worried mom that fears he could be swooped away by a giant bird. Going to order the calcium now, any particular site, or brand I should look for?

 

[Bemo]

The vet I found is specifically for exotic pets and they emailed me a form that looks very similar to the husbandry questions on this site. So I think that is a good sign!

 

[camimom]

Well that explains why I had such a hard time finding it! Porch is completely open, I take him out there when I have time to sit with him...because I am an overly worried mom that fears he could be swooped away by a giant bird. Going to order the calcium now, any particular site, or brand I should look for?

Any of our site sponsors. I believe LLL reptile has it.

and that's smart you to sit with him, because we have had horror stories of birds taking chams off bushes, and chams just wandering away, when left uncaged outside. and a few of chams being caged and wind/animals knocking cages over.

 

[Bemo]

Any of our site sponsors. I believe LLL reptile has it.

and that's smart you to sit with him, because we have had horror stories of birds taking chams off bushes, and chams just wandering away, when left uncaged outside. and a few of chams being caged and wind/animals knocking cages over.

To top if off, our property is surrounded by a nature preserve that specializes in the conservation of endangered birds and insects. So Bald Eagles have always been an issue, they carry of chickens, small dogs...my cham would just be an appetizer. So needless to say, I am the one watching him like a hawk, I never leave his side. At some point I plan to build a very, very secure enclosure.

 

[laurie]

You should feed your guy early in the day. He needs more time with his heat on the digest his food. I always feed mine before lunch just to be sure they have time to digest the food. I do wait in the morning until I am sure they have warmed up.

 

[pssh]

I personally dont think it's necessary to mist veileds 5 times a day. 2-3 good long mistings and a dripper should be fine (most of my veileds/panthers prefer drippers anyways and mostly use mistings for cleaning their eyes.) I've never had any issues with this method, and as long as urates are white, they are getting enough water.

Like laurie said, its best to feed him earlier in the day to allow some basking time to digest the food. At the very least, make sure he has 4-5 hours before lights out to digest/bask. I really like minerall calciums, and I also like the loD version of repashy calcium plus. I use the calcium plus once or twice a week, and the outdoor version of minerall (no D3) on every feeding (minerall indoor/D3 version says to use it once every 3 days, though when you compare it to the usage of other supplements, it could basically be used every day.)

 

[kinyonga]

When a chameleons MBD you have to bring the nutrients back in line and then make sure your husbandry is right to keep it from returning. Calcium, D3, phos and vitamin A are all players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance. When trying to balance them you need to look at the following things...temperatures, UVB, supplements, what you feed/gutload the insects and what you feed to the chameleon.

Appropriate temperatures aid in digestion and thus indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB light allows the chameleon to produce the D3 needed for it to use the calcium in its system. See below for more information about this.

Insects need to be well fed and gutloaded properly. Crickets can be fed a wide assortment of greens such as dandelions, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, etc.

Appropriate supplementing is important too. you will need a phos - free calcium powder, a phos - free calcium / D3 powder and a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A.

Since most insects we use as feeders have a poor ratio of calcium to phos its important to dust them with a phos - free calcium powder at most feedings to make up for it.

In addition to the exposure to the UVB light its recommended that the insects are dusted before being fed to the chameleon twice a month with a phos - free calcium / D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving it to produce the rest from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues but D3 produced from exposure to the UVB light shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it at will.

It's also recommended that the insects are dusted before being fed to the chameleon twice a month with a vitamin powder containing a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Since prOformed sources are converted as needed prOformed sources won't build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A will and this leaves the owner to decide whether or not to give the chameleon any prEformed vitamin A. It's not known for sure if any/all chameleons can convert he prOformed or not.

As far as correcting the imbalance the quickest way is for the chameleon to be given injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin which rapidly draws the calcium back into the bones.

Hope this helps.

 

[ridgebax1]

you can get all three supplement powders (calcium, cal with d3, and vitamins) on Amazon for about $5 each; don't waste your money when you buy an automated mist system by getting a Monsoon; I bought one used it for a few months then the timer stopped working properly; the company replaced it and out of the box this timer doesn't work right either, I am going to try to get my money back.

There are several online sources for bugs to feed; Phoenix, silk, horn and butter worms are the four common feeders with the highest calcium content. I believe phoenix and silk worms also have the proper calciumhosphorous ratio (2:1); I know that ratio is important but I am not clear on why but I think it has something to do with absorption and synthesis of Vitamin D by the cham.

If you have a Petco in your area, they may have phoenix worms under the name of calciworms (the ones in Pittsburgh do), if you want to start feeding those right away rather than wait until some are shipped to you. If they have them, check each container before you buy because a lot of times they will be mostly pupae and flies rather than the larvae. My friend bought some there and we had to go through at least 8 containers to find larvae.

 

[Bemo]

You should feed your guy early in the day. He needs more time with his heat on the digest his food. I always feed mine before lunch just to be sure they have time to digest the food. I do wait in the morning until I am sure they have warmed up.

I didn't really think about that, makes sense. Thanks for the info, I am already prepared to change his routine tomorrow morning.

 

[Bemo]

you can get all three supplement powders (calcium, cal with d3, and vitamins) on Amazon for about $5 each; don't waste your money when you buy an automated mist system by getting a Monsoon; I bought one used it for a few months then the timer stopped working properly; the company replaced it and out of the box this timer doesn't work right either, I am going to try to get my money back.

There are several online sources for bugs to feed; Phoenix, silk, horn and butter worms are the four common feeders with the highest calcium content. I believe phoenix and silk worms also have the proper calciumhosphorous ratio (2:1); I know that ratio is important but I am not clear on why but I think it has something to do with absorption and synthesis of Vitamin D by the cham.

If you have a Petco in your area, they may have phoenix worms under the name of calciworms (the ones in Pittsburgh do), if you want to start feeding those right away rather than wait until some are shipped to you. If they have them, check each container before you buy because a lot of times they will be mostly pupae and flies rather than the larvae. My friend bought some there and we had to go through at least 8 containers to find larvae.

Thanks for the heads up about the mister. I am going to Petco tomorrow because they are having some special halloween/reptile event that my kids want to go to, so I will check on the worms. If I find them, how often do you feed them to your cham?