Do we gutload too much...?

[jamest0o0]

Just a thought for conversation if anyone feels like joining in... So, as with anything, too much of a good thing can be bad. Vegetables and fruits can be overdone if you have too many of the same kind. Whether it be oxalates, goitrogens, etc. For a chameleon that rarely/never sees insects(in the wild) which feed on the things that we gutload with, couldn't it be too much? Could all of these vitamins in excessive amounts be more harmful than helpful? I guess the secret is to have a well balanced mix, but really, we don't know much outside of the basics. For small animals, well balanced from toxic could be a very thin line. I don't buy into the thought that wild insects are gutloaded with more variety. If there was some abundant super foods throughout Madagascar, stores would be selling them.

BTW, I regularly gutload with a mix of probably 50-100 ingredients. I follow the conventional wisdom that variety is key. I don't intend to change anything atm, or lead anyone astray. I think gutloading is a great practice. I just figured I'd post this and see what people think. They could be much more sensitive to certain things, especially non-native plants bred for maximum nutrition.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Interesting thaught! Haha, too much of a good thing..... I think the odds are that the humans 100 years from now might laugh at us and eiter say them silly people back then really did not gutload much, did they! Or wow, they practically killed their chameleons with all that stupid gutloading back then, didn't they! I bet it will be the former!

 

[jamest0o0]

Yeah I mean who knows. I'm just basing this off the assumption they don't get this stuff much in the wild(the one scientist on CBP mentions this as well). High amounts of certain vitamins can be toxic, among the other potentially harmful things found in greens and such. That's where variety comes in to play though. So I could see gutloading with the same things over and over having negative effects, while a huge variety may be what helps our animals live longer than they do in the wild. I dont think people take into consideration(myself included) that the same vegetables day after day isn't good.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I totally agree! In all longevity studies of creatures capable of eating variety, doing so influences longevity positively! It has for instance only been about 10 years since a increased interest in phytochemicals and probiotics made them popular with humans! How many chameleon keepers do you know who are actively trying to figure out if chameleons could benefit from these? In nature most chameleons gets lots of them by chomping on flowers up in trees. Flowers rich in phytochemicals and loaded with probiotics and yeast that falls out of the air! They also eat a massive variety of bugs each eating a bunch of different foods! Gutloading and dusting with pollen also recently has gained much interest!

 

[jamest0o0]

I believe pollen to a be a big part, but considering most of the plants where they're from are probably toxic in some way(though I'm sure they have developed a tolerance for this) I don't see them getting as many beneficial plant nutrients as they do in captivity. I think the main difference is the variety of insects(which make up different nutrients themselves) and the fact they get sun and free roam all day. My chameleons eat much better and more naturally when outside than in their cages.

I can't remember which CBP episode. But the guy that studies them in field mentions that they see a much wider variety of gutload ingredients in captivity than they would in the wild. I mean things like kale, watercress, and other greens are absolutely loaded. I'm not sure of many plants that aren't already sold that can compete in nutrient content. Yet I doubt there are many/any of these where chams are from. Most insects they probably eat are fliers which probably go for the nectar/pollen/other insects/tree sap/etc.

None of this is 100% confirmed, but this is just my guess based off my readings and understanding of nutrition.

 

[jamest0o0]

Btw thanks for sharing matt. I enjoy having conversations on here. No argument intended, just fun to question some of the things we do every once and awhile.

 

[Remkon]

I think so but don't think it matters...
Most things that are 'to much' in a body just get discarded. We just have to make sure the things that don't arent gutloaded to much... But that's why we also have the recommended fruits and veggies list.

 

[Goose502]

We haven’t even created a version of the food pyramid for humans that nutritionists and dietitians can agree on. I doubt our idea of food for our chameleons is entirely correct. I think variety and moderation is key, this includes gutloads. Curious to see if any real study has been created regarding this.

 

[jannb]

I use a dry gutload, rotating between Cricket Crack and Bug Buffett. I use water crystals to hydrate. I do add a little fresh greens, veggies and fruit several times a week. On occasion, I add bee pollen but not more than a couple times a month tops. I do not use UVB lights when my chameleons are inside per my vets recommendation. I feed a wide variety of feeders and my vets recommends, based on routine x-rays and bloodwork, I NEVER use supplements but my guys do get outside time year round. It’s been four plus years since I’ve use any supplements. He also strongly believes that UV lights are like us laying in a tanning bed. I have lost one chameleon to melanoma skin cancer and that’s when he had us stop with the UVB lights. IMHO chameleons in no way need 12 hours of UVB a day. If I had to keep inside I would put my UV light on a timer to come on a couple hours in the morning and another hour or two in the late afternoon.

So I thinks it’s a combo of how we keep that determines exactly what they need and without routine exams and test it would only be a guess.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Goose502 true, but the food pyramid mostly relates to calories and a healthy weight rather than micronutrients. I agree though, I doubt we'll find the answer to a true well balanced chameleon diet anytime soon.

@jannb makes sense, I don't supplement d3 much at all when i can get my chams outside, but I give them retinol 1x a month along with a few other water soluble supplements. But not often. Do you supplement with calcium?

The uvb thing makes for an interesting point. Mine aren't outside enough to remove the uvb, but I wonder if they'd benefit more from having the conventional strength uvb light on for a few hours mid-day with a weak uvb light on in the morning and evenings.

 

[jannb]

@Goose502 true, but the food pyramid mostly relates to calories and a healthy weight rather than micronutrients. I agree though, I doubt we'll find the answer to a true well balanced chameleon diet anytime soon.

@jannb makes sense, I don't supplement d3 much at all when i can get my chams outside, but I give them retinol 1x a month along with a few other water soluble supplements. But not often. Do you supplement with calcium?

The uvb thing makes for an interesting point. Mine aren't outside enough to remove the uvb, but I wonder if they'd benefit more from having the conventional strength uvb light on for a few hours mid-day with a weak uvb light on in the morning and evenings.

Never use any supplements at all. My vet shows me in x-rays where even calcium, without d-3 can calcify their organs.

My vet travels all over the world giving seminars to teach other vets how to work on Reptiles. He talks to many vets from everywhere and said these vets have told him they are seeing more and more skin cancer in chameleons. Both my vets agree it’s from the UVB lights.

 

[waynek]

So do you think that a heat lamp, when necessary which a regular plant light might be better? I have read where the uvb lights can affect their eyes

 

[waynek]

I have been using sticky tongue farms supplements once every week or two

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Please be aware that different chameleons (species and even individuals within each species) just like different people (like siblings -same parents) can and does have different nutritional and solar Needs and tolerances!

 

[jamest0o0]

@waynek I would use UVB unless your chams get regular unfiltered sun exposure.

 

[Remkon]

Never use any supplements at all. My vet shows me in x-rays where even calcium, without d-3 can calcify their organs.

My vet travels all over the world giving seminars to teach other vets how to work on Reptiles. He talks to many vets from everywhere and said these vets have told him they are seeing more and more skin cancer in chameleons. Both my vets agree it’s from the UVB lights.

well you're in the luxury position that you can offer your animals sunlight on a frequent basis... For the most of us it's a choice between a chance on skincancer and certain MBD... I know which I'm gonna chose.

But I agree we could possibly remove some hours of UVB exposure by running them a few hours shorter daily.

 

[Remkon]

So do you think that a heat lamp, when necessary which a regular plant light might be better? I have read where the uvb lights can affect their eyes

No, unless you can put your animal outside year round UVB lights would be required.

The lights affecting their eyes is an old story I believe and occurred on 1 type of lamp of 1 single brand.

 

[44937]

I would like to hear from people who do not specifically gut load their feeders and still have healthy chameleons that are alive after many years.
Do we know what minerals and or nutrients are we specifically gut loading for? At times I feel that we are gut loading without knowing what we are suppose to be gut loading with so we just gut load with an abundance of variety of ingredients that we have no idea what for and just to say we do gut load. I have seen a variety of list of ingredients in many recipes and I am in awe that some of these ingredients are "missing" from a chameleon's diet. I will note there is one ingredient, pollen, that does have some validity in terms of flying insects' relationship with flowers but to what extent, does anybody know? For those who do not specifically gut load their feeders and still have healthy chameleons, were your pets ever exposed to wild insects that were exposed to pollen? And of course calcium is another mineral that is important especially for females which I believe is better accomplished by coating the feeders with calcium powder than having the feeders eat minutes amount to have the calcium present in their digestive tracts when consumed.
I recently posted that I feed my feeders commercial vegetarian tortoise food that I have been using to supplement feed my highly prized Burmese star tortoises of which have more than quadrupled in size since I acquired them 10 months ago; somebody replied that this food is "no good at all". I was intrigued by this response and I was hoping for some sort of explanation but the poster did not respond. But is it possible that a food that can quadruple the size of my calcium craving vegetarian tortoises is no good "at all" for gut loading my chameleon's feeders? I have my doubts but I may not be qualified to answer this.

 

[waynek]

See I keep my guys outside as much of the year as I can my quads can stay out the longest while my panther will have a much shorter outdoor season. The panther is the one that will need uvb lighting the most

 

[Goose502]

@Goose502 true, but the food pyramid mostly relates to calories and a healthy weight rather than micronutrients. I agree though, I doubt we'll find the answer to a true well balanced chameleon diet anytime soon.

@jannb makes sense, I don't supplement d3 much at all when i can get my chams outside, but I give them retinol 1x a month along with a few other water soluble supplements. But not often. Do you supplement with calcium?

The uvb thing makes for an interesting point. Mine aren't outside enough to remove the uvb, but I wonder if they'd benefit more from having the conventional strength uvb light on for a few hours mid-day with a weak uvb light on in the morning and evenings.

I used the food pyramid as an example as it is really a simplified way of saying we can’t even agree on caloric needs, let alone the new emphasis on carbohydrates vs fats. Both micro and macronutrient intake has to be a highly personalized data point. As with CA, UVB, and vitamin/mineral supplements, if we want to know how much, or which to give, we can only assume and make educated guesses. Each chameleons metabolic rate, activity level, age, genetics, etc all effect what is needed. Are chameleons dying early due to misunderstood supplementation by some of our best keepers/breeders? Most likely yes. Fact is, we don’t make an effort to understand what we as humans truly need, let alone our chameleons. We would need years worth of data, including detailed husbandry descriptions along with blood test results and autopsies to start to understand any of this. It is confusing and frustrating just thinking about it.