I used bottle water for spraying all my reptiles. Even for my water dragon to swim in. I was told by the vet and by other experienced members that 80 to 82 was fine for my veils so that is what I had it at. But if they had pre existing parasites that should have shown up in the fecal... However we now know that the fecal that was done on them when they arrived my not have been done by someone that knew what to look for (or so that is what they say now they they were questioned about it).
Dehydrated, lethargic chams
- Thread starter K9Luvn
- Start date
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
For a maximum basking temperature?
82 is like, room temperature.
I had a female veiled live 8 years happily with access to 97F basking, and for a few years, in her prime, it was even higher than that.
Veileds come from a completely different region than most chameleons available. They require a hotter basking temperature than panthers or any other available chameleons other than Namaquans, IMHO.
Even if I am wrong on the 97F, I can surely say 80F is severely low and is asking for digestive issues, parasite invasions, bacterial overload, and lethargy (not eating, not drinking, not moving).
A bare minimum basking spot would be 87F-90F.
82 is like, room temperature.
I had a female veiled live 8 years happily with access to 97F basking, and for a few years, in her prime, it was even higher than that.
Veileds come from a completely different region than most chameleons available. They require a hotter basking temperature than panthers or any other available chameleons other than Namaquans, IMHO.
Even if I am wrong on the 97F, I can surely say 80F is severely low and is asking for digestive issues, parasite invasions, bacterial overload, and lethargy (not eating, not drinking, not moving).
A bare minimum basking spot would be 87F-90F.
mychamtini112012
New Member
I know I just started keeping chameleons, but a lot of really good and experienced chameleons keepers keep their veileds at 80-82 with no problem. I highly doubt this was any problem to them. Their chameleons do not suffer from lethargy and neither has mine.
80-82 for a cham this age. JannB keeps her adult male veiled at 87-89. Females are kept at lower temps to prevent large clutches. This is in her blog.
80-82 for a cham this age. JannB keeps her adult male veiled at 87-89. Females are kept at lower temps to prevent large clutches. This is in her blog.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Also, bottled water doesn't mean anything. 25% of bottled water is tap water. If it is Spring Water, it may as well also be tap water.
Water dragons are many times more hardy and adapted to different water conditions than chameleons.
If it says 'Filtered by Reverse Osmosis' or 'Distilled' on it, then it is worthy of a chameleon.
Anything else is not worthy of a chameleon. Chameleons drink rain water, which is distilled water. Not spring water, not well water, not tap water, not glacier water.... Reverse Osmosis is, for all intents and purposes, Distilled water made from a machine instead of from steam. Anything else is a poor substitute.
Water dragons are many times more hardy and adapted to different water conditions than chameleons.
If it says 'Filtered by Reverse Osmosis' or 'Distilled' on it, then it is worthy of a chameleon.
Anything else is not worthy of a chameleon. Chameleons drink rain water, which is distilled water. Not spring water, not well water, not tap water, not glacier water.... Reverse Osmosis is, for all intents and purposes, Distilled water made from a machine instead of from steam. Anything else is a poor substitute.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
FYI 32C is 89.6F (basically 90F)....that is AVERAGE not a daytime high.
and 52C is 125.6F.
Where 80F-82F came from, I must have missed those years. That is a good ambient temperature, but for basking? Really? Veileds?
mychamtini112012
New Member
That's for a young veiled. 4-5months. Then it's uped to 88-89. But for a female it's always 80-82 unless bred, then highest is 84. This is directly taken for JannB's blog about caring for them...
‘You probably will not need a basking light right at first if he's young.....under 4 months old. He'll be so young he'll only need to bask at about 80 to 82 until 4 or 5 months old. Luie (my adult male veiled) bask at 88 or 89 for an adult panther 85. You can use a household bulb and you'll have to keep testing the temps. (25 to 40 watt or so). You will need a way to check your tepms. This is the temp gun that I use and it works great
…and then later in the blog…
A female will probably never need a basking light. I use a double fixture with one UVB bulb and one regular fluorescent bulb and that works perfect. As a baby her basking temps should be at 80. Being female 80 or 81 her entire life unless you breed then you could up it a bit...83 or 84......you'll still want a small clutch. If your house is really cold you might need a 15 or 25 watt basking bulb for a female.’
‘You probably will not need a basking light right at first if he's young.....under 4 months old. He'll be so young he'll only need to bask at about 80 to 82 until 4 or 5 months old. Luie (my adult male veiled) bask at 88 or 89 for an adult panther 85. You can use a household bulb and you'll have to keep testing the temps. (25 to 40 watt or so). You will need a way to check your tepms. This is the temp gun that I use and it works great
…and then later in the blog…
A female will probably never need a basking light. I use a double fixture with one UVB bulb and one regular fluorescent bulb and that works perfect. As a baby her basking temps should be at 80. Being female 80 or 81 her entire life unless you breed then you could up it a bit...83 or 84......you'll still want a small clutch. If your house is really cold you might need a 15 or 25 watt basking bulb for a female.’
Elizadolots
New Member
I'm going to note that the seemingly low temps are being suggested to reduce the size and frequency of egg clutches. If you are using your females as breeding stock, then you want them to be in the best possible situation, loads of food, warm temperatures, everything that says "make eggs!!!" But if not, you want cooler temps, less food.
Though, if there is a digestion issue, upping the basking temp a couple of degrees is probably the right course.
Though, if there is a digestion issue, upping the basking temp a couple of degrees is probably the right course.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Wow that is terrible. Jann suggests that?
I would imagine that is for the sole purpose of preventing egg laying and for no other reason than that......which is given away when she says ''You'll still want a small clutch."
A healthy chameleon requires a choice of temperatures to thermoregulate between. They lay eggs, it's not a problem if you're prepared for it. I'm overwhelmed right now because I have several females all showing signs of laying, and it's hella-stressing me out. But I'm prepared for it.
My panthers get 84-91F options, outside in the summer I have caught them basking happily at 98F for short periods. Veileds like a bit higher temps than that. How does 80-81 even make a tiny little bit of sense? Are females not allowed to bask in the same trees as males in Yemen??? lol
I'm not going to argue, and I hope I'm not being insulting (though I probably am). A maximum of 81F is simply ridiculous. For a maximum ambient, yes. For a maximum basking? Absolutely not.
JannB's blog is hardly a source of hard facts on care information....likewise, so are my opinions. So here are some real facts.
Taken from chameleonnews.com
From 'Chameleons: Care and Breeding....' by Gary Ferguson, Kenneth Kalisch, and Sean McKeown
In fact I can not find any information about 80-81F as Jann suggests....other than Jann's blog. And unfortunately for noobs, Google lists blogs before real websites.
For a 4 month old, no, you don't want 97F. For a 4-5 month old you could easily have a small basking area of 87-89F and lots of space to go down from there. I give 2 day old panther chameleons access to 82F. A 4 month old veiled can handle 85-87F at the very least.
I know people don't do things the exact same. But nature does. I don't mean to be right and you're wrong. But I strongly believe, based on all the information I can find, and experience I've had, that 80-81F, even for a 4 month old, is completely false, and over the long term, harmful.
IMO most people's problems with big or early clutches is from overfeeding, which I have been guilty of in the past I admit. Temperatures play a different role than diet. The DIET should be corrected and reduced, not the temperatures.
I would imagine that is for the sole purpose of preventing egg laying and for no other reason than that......which is given away when she says ''You'll still want a small clutch."
A healthy chameleon requires a choice of temperatures to thermoregulate between. They lay eggs, it's not a problem if you're prepared for it. I'm overwhelmed right now because I have several females all showing signs of laying, and it's hella-stressing me out. But I'm prepared for it.
My panthers get 84-91F options, outside in the summer I have caught them basking happily at 98F for short periods. Veileds like a bit higher temps than that. How does 80-81 even make a tiny little bit of sense? Are females not allowed to bask in the same trees as males in Yemen??? lol
I'm not going to argue, and I hope I'm not being insulting (though I probably am). A maximum of 81F is simply ridiculous. For a maximum ambient, yes. For a maximum basking? Absolutely not.
JannB's blog is hardly a source of hard facts on care information....likewise, so are my opinions. So here are some real facts.
Taken from chameleonnews.com
From 'Chameleons: Care and Breeding....' by Gary Ferguson, Kenneth Kalisch, and Sean McKeown
In fact I can not find any information about 80-81F as Jann suggests....other than Jann's blog. And unfortunately for noobs, Google lists blogs before real websites.
For a 4 month old, no, you don't want 97F. For a 4-5 month old you could easily have a small basking area of 87-89F and lots of space to go down from there. I give 2 day old panther chameleons access to 82F. A 4 month old veiled can handle 85-87F at the very least.
I know people don't do things the exact same. But nature does. I don't mean to be right and you're wrong. But I strongly believe, based on all the information I can find, and experience I've had, that 80-81F, even for a 4 month old, is completely false, and over the long term, harmful.
IMO most people's problems with big or early clutches is from overfeeding, which I have been guilty of in the past I admit. Temperatures play a different role than diet. The DIET should be corrected and reduced, not the temperatures.
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Chameleons in the wild have different insects and the freedom to move to whatever temperature is available to them but in captivity we have very little chance of giving them what they have in the wild so some adjustments help them to live longer when they are in captivity.
We gutload and supplement the available insects that they are fed to hopefully provide them with a balanced diet...but it will never be the diet they get in the wild.
Controlling the diet at the appropriate time in their cycle in veiled females (so they are not starving but not over fed) seems to slow or prevent reproduction so they have less reproductive issues and lay smaller clutches. The temperature being kept in the low to mid 80's is intended only to slow their metabolism to help them not be so hungry. Since the veileds that I've kept almost all live to be 6 or 7 years old (or older sometimes) I don't see what harm its doing.
Keeping the hatchlings at temperatures in the low to mid 80's helps to slow the growth IMHO and prevents accidental dehydration and death from overheating them when people who don't know much about them are keeping them. It also lowers the risk of MBD IMHO because the rapid growth in the wild would demand higher calcium levels (which they would naturally get in their own environment) than we might provide in captivity.
When we can provide the same conditions that they get in the wild, we won't need to make any alterations to their husbandry in captivity.
Just my 2 cents worth.
We gutload and supplement the available insects that they are fed to hopefully provide them with a balanced diet...but it will never be the diet they get in the wild.
Controlling the diet at the appropriate time in their cycle in veiled females (so they are not starving but not over fed) seems to slow or prevent reproduction so they have less reproductive issues and lay smaller clutches. The temperature being kept in the low to mid 80's is intended only to slow their metabolism to help them not be so hungry. Since the veileds that I've kept almost all live to be 6 or 7 years old (or older sometimes) I don't see what harm its doing.
Keeping the hatchlings at temperatures in the low to mid 80's helps to slow the growth IMHO and prevents accidental dehydration and death from overheating them when people who don't know much about them are keeping them. It also lowers the risk of MBD IMHO because the rapid growth in the wild would demand higher calcium levels (which they would naturally get in their own environment) than we might provide in captivity.
When we can provide the same conditions that they get in the wild, we won't need to make any alterations to their husbandry in captivity.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Okay, whatever the current accepted husbandry measures are...however strongly I disagree.
The original problem: "dehydrated, lathargic, not opening eyes, not eating"
Unless a CB veiled chameleon @ 4 months old has a huge parasite load...all of those symptoms can be caused by low temperatures.
And to boot, the SAME problem in TWO chameleons, kept the SAME way....
Although there are many variables, if there were 4 people posting each of those problems in separate threads......and the only constant variable was the 80F basking spot.....I think there is a strong correlation between the temp and the issues and the advice would be to give them a bigger basking range.
Kinyonga is someone I would describe as an expert. There are people who keep diaries of what they feed their chameleons, have strict schedules, and are attuned to their behavior. The methods they use (like keeping their females lower, monitoring their food intake, etc) cannot be applied by beginners.
For beginners, with so many variables at play, such as improper diet, inefficient gutloading, not being diligent with cleanliness.....etc. Heat is the one thing that can help a chameleon combat those mistakes we all make as beginners. With heat, a chameleon gains the power to destroy bacteria, digest their diet, gain metabolism and appetite, regulate parasites, and so much more.
I'll leave it at that. I haven't kept veileds in many years so I haven't kept up with their husbandry updates. I really am surprised that people only allow a basking spot of 82F.
The original problem: "dehydrated, lathargic, not opening eyes, not eating"
Unless a CB veiled chameleon @ 4 months old has a huge parasite load...all of those symptoms can be caused by low temperatures.
And to boot, the SAME problem in TWO chameleons, kept the SAME way....
Although there are many variables, if there were 4 people posting each of those problems in separate threads......and the only constant variable was the 80F basking spot.....I think there is a strong correlation between the temp and the issues and the advice would be to give them a bigger basking range.
Kinyonga is someone I would describe as an expert. There are people who keep diaries of what they feed their chameleons, have strict schedules, and are attuned to their behavior. The methods they use (like keeping their females lower, monitoring their food intake, etc) cannot be applied by beginners.
For beginners, with so many variables at play, such as improper diet, inefficient gutloading, not being diligent with cleanliness.....etc. Heat is the one thing that can help a chameleon combat those mistakes we all make as beginners. With heat, a chameleon gains the power to destroy bacteria, digest their diet, gain metabolism and appetite, regulate parasites, and so much more.
I'll leave it at that. I haven't kept veileds in many years so I haven't kept up with their husbandry updates. I really am surprised that people only allow a basking spot of 82F.
ataraxia
Avid Member
If a beginner starts out without researching the animal they are caring for. Its going to lead to problems in most cases. If they get advice here of temps. They are also given advice on any other possible problem such as a proper diet, gut loading and etc as it is noted. I dont think any advice given by some of our experienced members cause any further health issues.
I do however have a different theory and it consist of close to the same temps as you have stated on keeping females. I personally like to raise my females to a larger size and honestly...i keep them like my males. They do have large clutches and never have a problem. I think that if the rest of your husbandry is correct. That they have a easier time depositing eggs because of their size. I dont have ten years of breeding chameleons under my belt to see if this best for them yet.
On another note i have questioned the recommended temps also. I pm'd chris anderson asking him of temps recorded under the sun high noon in areas of madagascar. Not the air ambient temps. I want to know what temps do they receive from the suns rays at recorded latitude and longitude. I know we are talking veileds so this info wont particularly be of use but i will be able to relate to animals in madagascar better.
This does bring a curiosity to me "At what core temperatures is a chameleons immune system vulnerable?".
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ataraxia
Avid Member
I do disagree...If the temps were lower then i will agree.
82* does not cause an animal to be lethargic. when i cool my females off..i would be in serious trouble if this were the case.
82* does not cause a complete lack in appetite.
82* does not decrease the animals water intake to cause dehydration.
82* does not cause eye to shut.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Maybe I am playing Devil's advocate and I am completely wrong, but to be fair, the OP said 80F @ the basking spot. That means the chameleons were likely 69F-79F for 2 months.
One thing leads to another, and without a hot spot > they can't digest food properly > they will not drink because food is digesting > they will be lethargic as their body tries harder to digest the food > lethargy leads to closing their eyes > and then they die.
I hope it was something else though and the necropsy catches it and this person can give their next chameleons a perfect healthy life.
One thing leads to another, and without a hot spot > they can't digest food properly > they will not drink because food is digesting > they will be lethargic as their body tries harder to digest the food > lethargy leads to closing their eyes > and then they die.
I hope it was something else though and the necropsy catches it and this person can give their next chameleons a perfect healthy life.
I guess I didn't answer your question correctly. You asked if I used tap and I answered that I used bottled. I didn't realize you wanted me to go into such detail.
I use Reverse Osmosis water.... that comes out of a bottle.
I use Reverse Osmosis water.... that comes out of a bottle.
I'm sorry I must have also neglected to tell you about my healthy panther Gaining weight since the day he arrived.
Gaining weight since the day he arrived. 
williamsrx
New Member
So sorry for your loss Robin - As you know, my Sambava went downhill quick for no apparent reason as well, and when you feel like you know what you're doing it's frustrating. The good news is you have that Sambava that's doing well and I think you're getting another panther soon, right? Keep your chin up - these animals are pretty fragile, especially when they're young.
