Deeper supplementation questions and more

[ChappyMcChap]

So I spend a lot of time lately bouncing between a couple local pet stores that specialize mostly in reptiles. The topic of supplementation came up and Larry, who is an older gentleman, just couldn't understand why I needed a calcium supplement without d3. He thought that was for chams you kept outside and I tried to explain that they only need a smaller infrequent dosage. Same thing at the pet store on the other end of town. He had never heard of this method.Now both of these stores breed numerous varieties of snakes and also beardies. Does this supplementation not apply to beardies? Is there something or anything else I was telling him? Because neither place carries any just straight calcium supplement. Eventually they will need to because I may take some baby panthers there eventually and I would like to concisely explain why. Also how do those little baby chams, especially veileds in the wild, dig up to three feet out of the ground with their little bitty hands? Blows my mind.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't keep beardies, so I couldn't compare what we do to anything else, but I've always thought that how we supplement makes sense.

I'm going to pull some backround info on the vitamin D3 first, from my blog:

Vitamin D3: Cholecalciferol, also nicknamed the “sunshine vitamin” is one that the body can synthesize in the skin when exposed to sunlight. It can also be consumed through diet, but in the case of reptiles, they count on basking to produce a significant amount of it. The purpose of vitamin D is to maintain normal, balanced blood levels of calcium and phosphorus in the body, and plays an important role in the absorption of calcium into the bones, helping them become stronger. It also plays an important part in maintaining immune system health.

There are risks associated with too much of this vitamin, which is why it is not recommended to supplement too heavily with this vitamin via diet. Too much of it will start affecting the nerves and muscles, and more severe toxicity will start to affect calcium levels; calcium will be too highly elevated in soft tissues, such as muscles and kidneys, and begin to actually calcify these tissues, while debilitating the bones.

Because chameleons can produce it on their own provided they have a UVB bulb or access to sunshine, they don't really need it via dietary sources. In fact, if your chameleon gets a lot of sunshine a week then you can cut out all D3 supplementation altogether, like I have for a long time now.

However, because our artificial bulbs don't pack as much punch as the sun does, if this is the only source of UV for a chameleon then a little D3 dusting should help fill in any gaps they need to keep the vitamin in balance within the animal. But since it's easy to over do it via supplementation, we try to keep the bulk of the D3 they get from what they produce themselves. Chameleons live in the sun all day long in the wild, so you can't overdose on what your body is producing (those systems usually have starts and stops that keep levels correct) but you can on sources that your body isn't producing. Am I making sense?

I don't know what the schedule is for other diurnal basking species but for my day geckos I keep the schedule the same because it makes sense.

 

[ChappyMcChap]

Thanks olympia that helps a lot. It was one of those instances where I knew what was right, I just semantically couldn't entirely explain why. One thing though, do you still provide daily calcium? Do since straight calcium and d3 are different and they don't get calcium from the sun, where do they get it in the wild and why do we supplement it so frequently?

 

[ChameleonFan1989]

Olimpia said it perfectly

Generally most pet stores are not very knowledgable as they think they are even if they claim to know what they are talking about. You may find pet stores who do but rarely, alot of experiences with members and pet stores have given them wrong information.

 

[ChameleonFan1989]

I gather we need to gut load and supplemention because in the wild insects will have access to fruit and other nutritional vegetation that grows wild where as we purchase crickets that don't have access unless we provide it with different fruit and vegetation to make them more healthy for our Chams. Also depending on where you live, like the UK doesn't have access to sunshine all the time.

 

[Olimpia]

Thanks olympia that helps a lot. It was one of those instances where I knew what was right, I just semantically couldn't entirely explain why. One thing though, do you still provide daily calcium? Do since straight calcium and d3 are different and they don't get calcium from the sun, where do they get it in the wild and why do we supplement it so frequently?

Yes, I do provide phosphorous-free calcium, but now that I think about it I suppose the Rapahsy all-in-one also has some D3 in it, so to be honest I am giving some D3. But before I switched to the Rapashy I hadn't given any calcium with D3 for a while.

I think in the wild they get calcium from a lot more sources. In captivity the cricket, for example has a ratio of phosphorous:calcium of 3:1, which is a lot. To put it in perspective, the ideal ratio of the two in the body to function correctly should be 1:1. So we supplement with plain calcium to bring that ratio to balance. And in the wild chameleons wouldn't just be living off of insects like crickets, but also have beetles, grasshoppers, spiders, roaches, mantids, small reptiles and birds, butterflies, stick insects, etc. etc. etc.... So you get a much more rounded diet. At most the typical keeper provides like 3-4 types of feeders - imagine how many a chameleon finds in a week in the wild? Probably quite a few more.

 

[ChameleonFan1989]

Didn't know Chams could eat birds.

 

[ChappyMcChap]

That's what I was looking for, thanks Olympia. Even with keepers that have a larger diversity of feeders, it would be impossible to replicate closely enough a chameleons natural diet to the point they wouldn't require any supplementation.

 

[sandrachameleon]

That's what I was looking for, thanks Olympia. Even with keepers that have a larger diversity of feeders, it would be impossible to replicate closely enough a chameleons natural diet to the point they wouldn't require any supplementation.

Exactly. We just cant replicate nature. In a typical month I provide between 6 and 14 different types of feeders, all well gutloaded - And I still use a little bit of supplement (primarily calcium and magnesium)

 

[fluxlizard]

the d3 schedule is just a different way of thinking about things.

For many years I also used d3 all the time indoors, and no d3 outdoors.

Never was a problem for my lizards.

But with new lighting available, the reduced d3 schedule is a safer idea.

But because of the number of years I used repcal with d3 every feeding without problems and the number of chameleons I used this schedule with I tend to believe the fear of oversupplementation is a bit exaggerated nowadays.

But at the same time, I think less is still a better idea. But I'm uncomfortable still with recommendations of d3 1 or 2x per month. I use more like 1-2x per week, and even more for fast growing babies like veileds which in my care reach adult size in about 4 months very often...

That probably speaks more about my fear of undersupplementing fast growing species than it speaks about the actual validity of my fears. It is just that 20 years ago MBD was something I saw a lot of in other people's animals, on the other hand I never saw an actual overdose of d3 (that I was aware of anyway)...

Probably the older shop owner you have been talking to is closer to my generation and his thinking is a little outdated. But on the other hand- it's not like zillions of chameleons were dropping dead from too much d3 during the years when most keepers were using d3 most feedings either...

Edit- and I produce lots of bearded dragons- I still use d3 every feeding for baby and juvenile dragons (not adults). I've just seen too many MBD over the years I guess, and again never saw a problem from too much d3- have some adult dragons in my collection that are over 12 years old.

That's not to say it doesn't happen (d3 overdose) only that it is probably not as certain as current thinking supposes...

 

[ChappyMcChap]

I understand where you're coming from, and when I first got into chameleons, around 1999-2000, I was told d3 every feeding and a multivitamin once a week. Then I took a break through high school and college. Now that I've gotten back into it, I was surprised to find out how the status quo of supplementation had changed. I suppose for beardies being a desert species, they require more d3? As I critique my own supplement schedules I will find a happy medium. For what it's worth, looking at analysis of the repti sun 5.0 bulbs and coupling that with d3, I was thinking of doing something like once a week one month and once every other week the next month. Not sure if it would make a difference because as you mentioned, it's much easier to recognize under supplementing than it is to recognize over supplementing. Over supplementing can be but one piece of an unhealthy chams diagnosis.

 

[fluxlizard]

Well, my bearded dragon supplementation schedule may also be a little dated, not sure.
It's worked great for me since 1994, so hadn't really demanded extra attention from me.

On the other hand, some results from other members of the forums here have me question things and even try new things, so just like with my chameleon suppelementation schedule, my use of d3 could simply be a reflection of my fear of undersupplementation, rather than my knowledge.

On the other hand, I did try a couple of things in the past couple of years since being on the forums that ended in failure. One was no true vit a. and beta carotene only for a couple of panther chameleons. Ended up with panther chameleons with eye problems after several months. Did not respond to antibiotic eye ointment from vet. Stopped treatment and a week I later simply gave a little vit a orally for a few days- problem cleared up in that time and has not returned with regular use of multivitamin with vit a in it.

After that- I tend to trust my own experience a little more when balancing advice I read here on the forums vs my own practices...

But I still consider stuff like this and tweak and investigate along the way.