Deadly Chameleon Myth series

[javadi]

let us start new, I apologize, I am not a snowlflake but after having been bashed here like a piece of …., i might iverreact. I will gladly answer all your questions and say my opinion and evidece-based statements or speculations and I will clearly divide them from each other, OK?

Yes, I can understand that and I'm sorry for the negative feelings that discourse here has produced in the past.
Thank you, that sounds great
I appreciate your humble and amicable approach in this reply!

 

[PetNcs]

This is why it is hard interacting with you. I did not say anything negative about you. I did not write rows and rows criticising you or calling you out. I even agreed with all the articles including the ghost/donut that i explained a few posts down (aka plain calcium donuts, just not water soluble vitamins).

My only criticism was myth 3 ended with " leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death" but then you did not link to an article to an alternative.

You then spend no less than 5 lines insulting me and saying i can not google or read.

Your linked article says feed house crickets, BSF, and house/bottle flies. Those would be the common stables most people could obtain from a local supplier or even find a starter to start breeding their own.



This could have been a happy interaction:

Nightanole "hey you say roaches will kill my chameleon, what do you recommend that i can get from a local supplier?"

PeTNcs "i do not recommend roaches, but you can feed them house crickets, BSF, and house/bottle flies that you should be able to obtain easily. You should also be able to catch local bees and wasps"

you are right! let us communicate like what we would love to hear:
I would love to get this answer after my post: Petr, you simply misunderstood me, all
OK and thanks a lot for the link, it is fantastic, first, I saw just the text and said to myself, it is somehow not detailed enough but then I noticed the attached charts and WOW, they are fantastic! A simplified chart for newbies, detailed three cheat sheets on the details of feeders, many of which I even did not consider and then the on the charts about supplementation, and feeding dose - that detail I even did nit expect! Clear, structured, awe! Please, give me some time, I will dive deeply into the info provided, I hope you will be available for some questions might they arise!

and my answer would be:

Of course my friend, get back to me in any case, I would love to hear your feedback and I will gladly answer all detailed issues you might be concerned with.
Take your time!

 

[ehdee6]

I think, people often think of pollinators and automatically just think bees.

While butterflies, moths, flies, and beetles are also heavy pollinators.

My step father used to keep bee hives for homemade honey.

Not here to debate the use of it in chams, because I'm an admitted noob on the subject. But just wanted to add there's a lot of ways pollen spreads in nature. Think of how it even floats in the air during allergy season. I've had days in the spring where it covers my car in a film.

 

[javadi]

I think, people often think of pollinators and automatically just think bees.

While butterflies, moths, flies, and beetles are also heavy pollinators.

My step father used to keep bee hives for homemade honey.

Not here to debate the use of it in chams, because I'm an admitted noob on the subject. But just wanted to add there's a lot of ways pollen spreads in nature. Think of how it even floats in the air during allergy season. I've had days in the spring where it covers my car in a film.

That’s an excellent point which I really appreciate. Above I was more referencing bees for that moment but totally true. Not enough people give credit to beetles in particular as great pollinators as well!

 

[DocZ]

That’s an excellent point which I really appreciate. Above I was more referencing bees for that moment but totally true. Not enough people give credit to beetles in particular as great pollinators as well!

@javadi you mentioned that you did not observe chams near flowers
Did you see flowers anywhere? I have never been there so I can’t quite imagine what it actually looks like from pictures
There are several endemic Madagascar flowers that I pay for at my local nursery, plant in pots outside, and intend for them to die here that are survivable year round in Madagascar

My initial impression is flowers would be rare in forested areas due to lack of light penetration to the forest floor
But I would imagine they aren’t far for a flying insect from where you found Chams, but again, I am just making assumptions

Those insects have other reasons to go somewhere beyond the flowers themselves, so isn’t it possible some of their diet is exposed to pollen in more open areas and captured where the Chams live?

 

[PetNcs]

Subject: Reconnecting and Reflecting



Hi Colleagues,

I am genuinely pleased to see that my work continues to gain attention within this community. Although I have stepped back from this forum and have not been actively participating, my dear friend Jann has inspired me to re-engage, and I am here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am more than willing to share my insights and experiences.

I hold immense respect for many wonderful individuals in this community whom I admire and cherish, including JannB, Mrs. Skittles, DocZ, and others. I am always ready to help and engage in meaningful discussions with you.

That said, I feel it is important to explain why my presence here has diminished. Unfortunately, I have often felt unwelcome in this space. There have been countless instances where I was called names and faced unfair challenges, with minimal support or protection from the management. At times, my feelings of being unwelcome were made explicit in writing.

For years, I dedicated my efforts to assist this community. I reviewed a wealth of materials and proposed numerous changes, many of which were dismissed, not because I was incorrect but to avoid offending those who authored them. I realized that I did not wish to spend my energies fighting against windmills.

I am thankful to CF for motivating me to create my own website, which has grown to become the largest resource on chameleons. It features comprehensive information and pictures on all known species and delivers news almost daily, drawing from the fields of science, husbandry, and surprising interdisciplinary perspectives. Through this platform, I actively educate hundreds of thousands of people around the world, positively impacting countless chameleon lives.

Even the ongoing debates here illustrate why I’ve chosen to distance myself; rather than directly asking me a question, people often discuss me behind my back. There seems to be a tendency to misinterpret my words rather than seek to understand my intent. Frequently, I find my intentions distorted or my words misconstrued, leading to unfounded assumptions about my character. If people took the time to read my posts thoroughly, they would find the answers they seek without the need for speculation.

For those who know me personally, they’ll attest that I am a warm-hearted and approachable person. However, introducing new ideas often requires clarity and assertiveness, which can be met with resistance. Not all data is published, and in some cases, it never will be. Thus, consistently demanding scholarly evidence is not always feasible, especially in various areas of study.

After years of dedicated experience with chameleons, when I state that pollinators are a frequent dietary component, it’s not a baseless claim but rather a conclusion drawn from thousands of observations. Arguments like, “I’ve been to Madagascar once and didn’t see chameleons eating pollinators,” cannot undermine years of research and observation.

I have consciously chosen to prioritize sharing knowledge that enhances the well-being of chameleons in captivity. This decision stemmed from a recognition that my time is limited—like everyone else, I have only 24 hours in a day. It is a choice I had to make; I simply could not dedicate equal time to both scholarly writing and practical research.

Unfortunately, the innovation often invites a backlash, especially when challenging the beliefs of established “pseudoreputable” experts in our field. I have faced severe criticism, including being accused of being the reason why the suicide rates among veterinarians in the U.S. are reportedly three times the national average. This is a heavy burden to bear, but it is a choice I made willingly. It is the price I pay for my commitment to both mankind and chameleonkind.

I take pride in the profound influence I have had on the chameleon community, addressing numerous issues that initially drew criticism and hostility. Sadly, I have witnessed my ideas being appropriated and commercialized by others without any credit given to my contributions. While I may not always adhere to political correctness, I remain unwavering in my advocacy.

After decades of speaking out for the chameleon community, I am delighted to see tangible improvements: chameleons are housed in larger, better environments; their lighting is significantly enhanced; they are supplemented with natural, pollen-based nutrients; and their diets are now more balanced, avoiding the overfeeding that was once common. These strides are incredibly satisfying.

I strive to remain humble. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I truly know. Yet, I dare to believe that through my modest sacrifices, I have made a small but meaningful contribution to the welfare of chameleons in captivity and in the wild.

You may not fully grasp the time and effort I have dedicated to initiating and managing reforestation and biotope restoration projects that directly benefit chameleons. These initiatives span countries such as Ethiopia, Kenya, Madagascar, India, Malawi, Uganda, Tanzania, and many others. Thanks to the noble efforts of tens of thousands of individuals, we have planted over a billion trees, creating a healthier habitat for both chameleons and countless other species.

Please pardon my enthusiasm and the sense of responsibility I carry. I recognize that sometimes my passion may come across as harsh, but my intention is always to foster positive change.

Thank you for allowing me to share my journey with you. I look forward to meaningful discussions and collaborations in the future.

Warm regards,

Petr

Since my post seems to have upset you, and I can understand why. Here are every quote I have said that regards you in this thread
I apologize for hurting your feelings it is not my intention

I won’t make any comment on how I think this shows my perspective about you. I will leave that up to you

Nnn I am totally OK with you, I am not upset because of you at all, you were always correct and friendly to me, no worries

 

[PetNcs]

let us start new, I apologize, I am not a snowlflake but after having been bashed here like a piece of …., i might iverreact. I will gladly answer all your questions and say my opinion and evidece-based statements or speculations and I will clearly divide them from each other, OK?

1) My "base" for it is everything I wrote in the reply.

A) Various published analyses of chameleon poop showing only small amounts of pollinators.



WELL, THERE ARE NO WIDE SCALE STUDIES AS YOU KNOW.

I HAVE FOUND POLLINATORS EXTREMELY FREQUENTLY, presented the evidence on my site incl youtube channel. Numerous keepers witnessed this.



B) Limitations with study designs leading to inability to distinguish between members of Hymenoptera and thus potential over-reporting of pollinators even in the relatively small proportion of the diet they seem to comprise.



THAT IS A SPECULATION I

CAN NOT CONFIRM



C) Various anecdotal observations of myself, other visitors of Madagascar, and guides who have spent their entire lives there reporting ~0 bee consumption.



WELL, THERE WE GO:

EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE? I HAVE NO DATA ON TIME AND WAY HOW YOU COLLECTED DATA SO I JUST CAN SPECULATE ON SOME VERY WEIRD BIAS AND NOT REPRESENTATIVENNESS OF YOUR OBSERVATIONS. I SPENT IN MADAGASXAR MANY MONTHS, will spend soon again 3 MONTHS, YOU SPEAK A OUT INCIDENTAL

ONSERVATIONS,

I JlHAVE HUNDREDS OF WORKERS

IN MASAGASCAR WORKING ON PROJECTS THERE. THEY STATE ORHERWISE

I HAVE ANALYZED HUNDREDS OF FECAL SAMPLES FROM F PARDALIS AND THEY WERE FULL OF POLINATORS: DIPTERANS, HYMENOPTERANS AND COLEOPTERANS, THERE ARE MANY VIDEOS AS EVIDENCE





D) Evidence that the very guiding practices themselves in Madagascar (honed over many years of observation and designed to see as many chameleons as possible across environments) do not account for any behavioral pattern of chameleons sitting on flowers or being found preferentially near pollinators.



NOO NEED FLOWERINV PLANTS ARE EVERUWHERE AND THE HIGHER THE CHAMELEONS SIT, THE LESS THEY WILL BE EXPOSED

TO ORTHOPTERANS AND MORE TO FLYING POLLINATORS



ALSO

I KEEP HUNDREDS OF CHAMELEONS IN HUGE NATURAL

CAGES FULL OF FLOWERING TREES AND BUSHES. I ALSO HAVE BEEHIVES THERE. THE PREFERENCE OF BEES AND WASPS AND FLIES OVER EG ORTHOPTERANS IS ABSOLUTELY EVIDENT. HUNDREDS OF KEEPERS REPORT ABOT THE SAME, I AM REALLY PUZZLED WHERE YOU COLLECT YOUR DATA STATING THE OPPOSITE.



E) Observations surrounding the amount of pollen a pollinator is able to carry and the inherent variability in the process.



YES DIFFERENT POLLINATORS GET CONTAMINATED OR GUTLOADED OR DELIBERATELY EQUOPED WITH (bees) POLLEN VARIOIS WAYS



To distill my entire set of observations/ideas here to "I went to Madagascar once and didn't see chameleons eating bees" is really not appropriate and I'd hope for better.



WELL

SO HOW

MANY FECAL

SAMPLES

HAVE YOU ANALYZED? HOW MANY CHAMELEONS

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO

OBSERVE SO LONG THAT YOU EVEN SAW THEM EATING?



I HAVE OBSERVED CHAMELEONS IN THE WILD FOR MANY HUNDREDS OF FULL DAYS, OBSERVED THOUSANDS OF SPECIMENS OF MANY TENTHS OF SPECIES AND SAW THEM EATING ON SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF OCCASSIONS. BIG PART OF THESE OBSERVATIONS ARE STILL IN MY FIELD NOTES NOT YET ANALYZED NOR PREPARED FOR PIBLICATION

IT IS NOT LAZINESS IT IS LACK OF TIME.

PLUS, I AM CONVINCED THAT THERE IS PROBABLY NOONE ELSE IN THE WORLD

NOW PAYING SO MUCH ATTENTION TO CHAMELEONS AS MYSELF SO THAT UNFORTUNATELY-FORTUNATELY I AM ONE OF FEW SOURCES OF EVIDENCE WHILE THERE ARE MERELY ANY COMPARABLE OTHERS



2) Why do you feel the issues above such as carrion consumption, beetle consumption, fungal element consumption, ant consumption etc. are "absolutely marginal"?



CARRION CONSUMPTION IS AN INTERESTING WUALITAGIVE TOPIC BUT BASED O. MY EXPERIENCE THE VOLUME IS TRACE-LIKE

BEETLES ARE NOT MARGINAL, especially chaffers (pollinators),

SOME CARRION FEDING ONES AI JAVE OBSERVWD TOO BUT SELDOMLY

ANTS ARE MARGINAL AS THEY ARE CONSUMED ONLY OCCASSIONALLY: THE MOST CHAMELEONS IGNORE THEM DIE SMALL SIZE AND SEASONALLY (SINGLE DIGIT NUMBER A YEAR) AND LOCALLY, THEY GET FED WHEN BREEDING COLONIES FLY



This is the crux of the issue-please explain why or how you think these factors don't matter. It comes off as if you are the one dismissing it right now without offering much reasoning. You don't think Brookesia species might encounter ants regularly?



WELL. I HAVE NOT OBSERVED THEM FEEDING ON ANTS, I DO NOT KNOW

THEY ARE VENOMOUS AND HAVE FORMIC ACID AND ARE BLACK (whichbis a food color often omitted) SOMEONE NEED TO STUDY IT, I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL.

BEING STOUND ANT NESTS IS DANGEROUS FOR SMALL

CHAMELEONS



Why or why not? You think tiny calumma species or Brookesia should be supplemented with pollen despite being so diminutive?



I WOULD SAY YES

SMALM POLLINATORS

ARE QUITEN TOO

BUT YES FOR

SMALL

SPECIES POLLEN MIGJT BE LESS IMPORTANT



Why or why not? If you read my statements I bolded the main points, being that I don't think bee pollen is a cure all for every chameleon in captivity in every circumstance.



I

HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT

I JUST BELIEVE IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT

MY LONG TERM EXPERIENCE AND SPECIFIC REILTS OF EXPERIMENTS INDICATE SO



3) I have read all or almost all of your articles. I have seen the video "Chameleons eat bees" on your youtube channel. Most of the video content is captive veiled chameleons eating bees. I do not doubt that captive chameleons will often eat bees when presented with them, as that is a fact that you (predominantly) and others (including myself) have observed and documented. To my knowledge, this is not currently a point of contention.



I HAVE OBSERVED

YEMEN CHA

ELEONS IN FHE WILD 20UEATS AGO. YEMEN IS IN WAR

THE WILD FECAL SAMPLES WERE FUL OF BEES, IN SIMMER

IT WAS OVER 90%

OF THE GIT CONTENT

AˇE

C ARABICUS IN YEMEN AMD OMAN

I JABE EVEN OBSERVED THEM TL CONSUME FLOBER OF SCACIAS FIˇ OF POLLEN BOTH SEEN TJEM EATIN AS WELL

AS IN THE FAECE



4) Even if you produce 10 hours of multiple individual c. calyptratus eating bees in the wild that is one species in one context. Why should this be generalized to all chameleon species in captivity year-round? Do you feel it should?



THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY DIFFFEREMCES. BETWEEN SPECIES

I BELIEVE THEY ARE MORE DRIVEN BY AVAILABILITY THAN CHOICE

BUT THE GENERALIZATION YOU MENTION TO HAVE NOT DONE LITERALLY, HOWEVER IT FITS. C CALYPTRATUS AND OF PARDALIS BUILD MORE THAN 90% OF ALL CHAMELEONS IN THE CAPTIVITY (GUESS) SO THE UYYUH

THE VAST MAJORITY OF SOECIES THE NEXT MOST FREQUENT SPECIES IS T JACKSONII AND T HOEHNELII, I EXPERIMENT V VE CCA CX CF WITH BOTH. WHILE PRESENCE OF POLLEN IN THEIR FOOD MADE NO OBSERVABLE NEGATIVE EFFECTS, THE BABIES RAISED WITHOUTNIT HAD DEVELOPMENTAL PROBLEMS TJOUGH OTHERWISE SUPPLEMENTED NORMALLY



5) You state that you have studied a lot of chameleon poop in the wild and that you find pollinators in the poop, yes? If so, how do you overcome point 1B above? How do you interpret 1A in the context of your own findings?



1B SEE FURTHER, THE BIAS OF LOW ID LEVEL IS IMHO KINOR AND CAN BE MITIGATED



1A IT IS NOWASAYS VERY HARD AND ETHICALLY PROBLEMATIC TO USE ANY INVASIVE METHODS OF

GUT CONTAMR ANALYSIS. THE MOST A AILABLE MERHOD IS FECAL ANALYSIS. IT HAS A GREATBDISADVANTAGE. HEALRHY XHAMELEONS CAN DIFEST MANY FEEDERS FULLY SIMYOUNSEE NO IDENTIFIABLE REMNANTS (IMSEENITMIN THE FSRM TOO, if ai know what they are fed with and compare it with fecal analyses - thousands of samples, youncan identify only some feeders, some disappear - upto 50%QUALITATIVELY AND OBER 80% WUANTITATIVELY DO NOT APPEAR)

FOR DNA ANALYSES WHICH WERE IDEAL AND WOULDMDELICER BEZTER RESULTS ESPECIALLYMIF FLUSHING OF STOMACHS WOULD BE USED, YOU NEED LOTS OF PAPERWORK AND A LAB, WHICH REQUIRES RESEARCH SND EXPORT AND CITES PERMITS AND FUNDING, IT IS NOWADAYS NOT ACCESSIBLE FOR ME



MOREOVER, THE FENERAL. IMMENT IS: IN OUR HEAVILY COMMERCIONALIZED WIRLD WHERE RESESECH MUST HAVE IMPACT ITNIS HARD TO JUSTIFY STUDIES WHICH NO REAL COMMERCIAL AND PRACTICAL OUTPUT. NOONE WILL FUND IT AND NO STUDENT WOULD LIKE TO DO SUCH STUDIES AS THEY WOULD RANK LOWNIN COMPAEISN WITH OTHERS

THEREFORE, WE RELY ON INCIDENTAL IBSERVATIONS ANDNINFREQUENT NON SYSTEMATIC STUDIES



6) As I stated earlier (albeit briefly), we have biological basis for how pollen can be harmful.



HUMAN BASED,

NO REASON TO ASSUME IT WOULD FIT TO REPTILES, ESPECIALLY NIT TI THISE WHO EBIDENTLY FEED ON POLLEN IN IRREGULAR BUT LARGE QUANTITIES. IT MAKES NO EVILUTIONARY SENSE. ITNIS LIKE IF A CARNIVORE WOULD BE SYSTEMATICALLY INTOLLERABLE TO TAURINE

 

[PetNcs]

Subject: Reconnecting and Reflecting



Hi Colleagues,

I am genuinely pleased to see that my work continues to gain attention within this community. Although I have stepped back from this forum and have not been actively participating, my dear friend Jann has inspired me to re-engage, and I am here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am more than willing to share my insights and experiences.

I hold immense respect for many wonderful individuals in this community whom I admire and cherish, including JannB, Mrs. Skittles, DocZ, and others. I am always ready to help and engage in meaningful discussions with you.

That said, I feel it is important to explain why my presence here has diminished. Unfortunately, I have often felt unwelcome in this space. There have been countless instances where I was called names and faced unfair challenges, with minimal support or protection from the management. At times, my feelings of being unwelcome were made explicit in writing.

For years, I dedicated my efforts to assist this community. I reviewed a wealth of materials and proposed numerous changes, many of which were dismissed, not because I was incorrect but to avoid offending those who authored them. I realized that I did not wish to spend my energies fighting against windmills.

I am thankful to CF for motivating me to create my own website, which has grown to become the largest resource on chameleons. It features comprehensive information and pictures on all known species and delivers news almost daily, drawing from the fields of science, husbandry, and surprising interdisciplinary perspectives. Through this platform, I actively educate hundreds of thousands of people around the world, positively impacting countless chameleon lives.

Even the ongoing debates here illustrate why I’ve chosen to distance myself; rather than directly asking me a question, people often discuss me behind my back. There seems to be a tendency to misinterpret my words rather than seek to understand my intent. Frequently, I find my intentions distorted or my words misconstrued, leading to unfounded assumptions about my character. If people took the time to read my posts thoroughly, they would find the answers they seek without the need for speculation.

For those who know me personally, they’ll attest that I am a warm-hearted and approachable person. However, introducing new ideas often requires clarity and assertiveness, which can be met with resistance. Not all data is published, and in some cases, it never will be. Thus, consistently demanding scholarly evidence is not always feasible, especially in various areas of study.

After years of dedicated experience with chameleons, when I state that pollinators are a frequent dietary component, it’s not a baseless claim but rather a conclusion drawn from thousands of observations. Arguments like, “I’ve been to Madagascar once and didn’t see chameleons eating pollinators,” cannot undermine years of research and observation.

I have consciously chosen to prioritize sharing knowledge that enhances the well-being of chameleons in captivity. This decision stemmed from a recognition that my time is limited—like everyone else, I have only 24 hours in a day. It is a choice I had to make; I simply could not dedicate equal time to both scholarly writing and practical research.

Unfortunately, the innovation often invites a backlash, especially when challenging the beliefs of established “pseudoreputable” experts in our field. I have faced severe criticism, including being accused of being the reason why the suicide rates among veterinarians in the U.S. are reportedly three times the national average. This is a heavy burden to bear, but it is a choice I made willingly. It is the price I pay for my commitment to both mankind and chameleonkind.

I take pride in the profound influence I have had on the chameleon community, addressing numerous issues that initially drew criticism and hostility. Sadly, I have witnessed my ideas being appropriated and commercialized by others without any credit given to my contributions. While I may not always adhere to political correctness, I remain unwavering in my advocacy.

After decades of speaking out for the chameleon community, I am delighted to see tangible improvements: chameleons are housed in larger, better environments; their lighting is significantly enhanced; they are supplemented with natural, pollen-based nutrients; and their diets are now more balanced, avoiding the overfeeding that was once common. These strides are incredibly satisfying.

I strive to remain humble. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I truly know. Yet, I dare to believe that through my modest sacrifices, I have made a small but meaningful contribution to the welfare of chameleons in captivity and in the wild.

You may not fully grasp the time and effort I have dedicated to initiating and managing reforestation and biotope restoration projects that directly benefit chameleons. These initiatives span countries such as Ethiopia, Kenya, Madagascar, India, Malawi, Uganda, Tanzania, and many others. Thanks to the noble efforts of tens of thousands of individuals, we have planted over a billion trees, creating a healthier habitat for both chameleons and countless other species.

Please pardon my enthusiasm and the sense of responsibility I carry. I recognize that sometimes my passion may come across as harsh, but my intention is always to foster positive change.

Thank you for allowing me to share my journey with you. I look forward to meaningful discussions and collaborations in the future.

Warm regards,

Petr

let us start new, I apologize, I am not a snowlflake but after having been bashed here like a piece of …., i might iverreact. I will gladly answer all your questions and say my opinion and evidece-based statements or speculations and I will clearly divide them from each other, OK?

2ND PART

I could go into lots of anecdotes of people seeing problems after feeding it, or the potential accumulation of fat soluble vitamins etc., but that's not really the main point I'm trying to make.



THAT IS SILENSOECULLSTION, FSR SOLUBLE VITAMINS SEE CONTAINEDNIN MINIATURW QUANTITIES, I GUESSNITNIS ALMOST ITRELEVANT. THEY ARE PRESENT IN PROMILLE AND EVEN ST MAXIMUM LEVELS OF POSSIBLE INGESTION TEY CAN NOT EEACH RHE TOXICITY LEVELS OF THE IDIVUDUAL VITAMINS, which are about 1000 times lower. Even if rhey would ingest their body weight of pollen the toxic dose would nit be resched. You can easily reconstruct tje way how I calculated, IF NOT I CAN SHARE. THERE IS A LIMITATION THAT TOXIC DOSES FOR REPTILES ARE

NOT FULLY RESEARCHED



7) I stated pollen feeding in moderation



WHAT IS IN MODERATION?

WHAT EXOERIMENTS AND STUDIES

HAVE YOU DONE? BASED ON WHAT YOU SOECILSTE LIKE THIS?



THE RECOMMENDATION TO DUST TOHETHER WITH CALCIUM DAILY MEANS TINY AMMOUNTS TO BE INGESTED



is probably fine, but I want to unpack the logical and mechanistic framework that might or might not support its use. It's perfectly valid for the "alternative" to be using it in moderation. Just because I don't have a "replacement" that I'm willing to claim will fix everything instead of pollen doesn't mean we shouldn't carefully evaluate what we are currently doing.



THEN DO IT

SO FAR,

INJAVE NIT SEEN ANY ATREMPT TO EVALUATE, JUST PUTTING UNDER QUESTION BASED ON. OT REALLY SOLID BASE





I'm not trying to make this about you, I'm trying to make this about science and the chameleons we so cherish. Please respect that and know that I'm not being combative here.



I AM NOT COMBATIVE

I JUST WANT TO STATE

I JAVE ENOUGH EBIDENTE FROM THE WILD

AND ENOUGH OF 40years OF EBIDENCE-BASED EXPERIEMCE THAT POLLEN IS SO BENEFICIAL THAT IT SHOULD BE USED





FRANKLY, no offense, I DO NOT THINK ALL YOUR DOUBTS. RING ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE FOR THE CHAMELEONS

IT IS AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE ON A MINEFULED OF LACK OF INFORMATION BUT SOLID THEIRETICAL AND PRACTICAL INDICATION AND EVIDENCE THAT DELIVERŠED NO SINGLE CONCERN BASED ON ANY CASE. ON THE OTHER SIDE, INLY RHE COMPOSITION OF RHE POLLEN DELIVER ENOUGH

EVIDENŤCEMITNIS BENEFICIAL AND WE HAVE TONS OF EVIDENCE IT IS (i.A. Arcadia Earth-Pro has a Bee polern compoumd)

and is widely and successfullly used and tested



GO BE CANDOR, ALL THE TIME I INVESTED IN ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS ROUGHT SO LITTLE EFFORT THAT I WOULD DEFINITWLY BEZTWE WRITE ANITHER ARTICLE IR BOOK CHAPTER



I WILL BE HESITANT TO CONTINUE THAT WAY DUE TO INEFFICIENCY AND QUESTIONABLE PURPOSE

 

[kinyonga]

@DocZ said…”isn’t the standard form that we ask new keepers to complete and then is assessed and critiqued by experienced members sort of also saying “this is the right way to do it””…it does seem to be that way…but isn’t it better to provide information that can keep the chameleons alive and well better than all the definitely poor information that is out there still…and amend the form here as we learn more about chameleons and what works better?

@PetNcs said…”I am thankful to CF for motivating me to create my own website, which has grown to become the largest resource on chameleons”…for years now, i have wondered why you didn’t set up your own website.

@PetNcs said…”I recognize that sometimes my passion may come across as harsh, but my intention is always to foster positive change”..your intentions are good!

@PetNcs said…”Concerning donuts: as is written in the Article: as there are no evident risks of donuts, but there are heavy dangers of too little, I would rather go for donuts if speaking extremes.”…when you say donuts show no evidence of risk, do you mean calcium ones or ones where the supplement includes fat soluble vitamins as well?

 

[DocZ]

@kinyonga

but isn’t it better to provide information that can keep the chameleons alive and well better than all the definitely poor information that is out there still…and amend the form here as we learn more about chameleons and what works better?

Yes, it is much better. And it is based on the experience of many that have been involved in this discussionI think it is essential.
The person that reviewed my care sheet may remember, I showed up and did my care sheet with them, and they responded in a very detailed and conscientious way
Being me, if I didn’t understand why they had concerns, I asked why.
And they graciously discussed these issues with me
I immediately was searching for scientific data to justify what was said if I didn’t understand and they and I, and others worked through it

That’s not how it usually works I don’t think.
Care guides are EXTREMELY important in chameleon care, and I think ours is sound, but it still needs to be challenged at every opportunity if we can improve it

 

[javadi]

2ND PART

I could go into lots of anecdotes of people seeing problems after feeding it, or the potential accumulation of fat soluble vitamins etc., but that's not really the main point I'm trying to make.



THAT IS SILENSOECULLSTION, FSR SOLUBLE VITAMINS SEE CONTAINEDNIN MINIATURW QUANTITIES, I GUESSNITNIS ALMOST ITRELEVANT. THEY ARE PRESENT IN PROMILLE AND EVEN ST MAXIMUM LEVELS OF POSSIBLE INGESTION TEY CAN NOT EEACH RHE TOXICITY LEVELS OF THE IDIVUDUAL VITAMINS, which are about 1000 times lower. Even if rhey would ingest their body weight of pollen the toxic dose would nit be resched. You can easily reconstruct tje way how I calculated, IF NOT I CAN SHARE. THERE IS A LIMITATION THAT TOXIC DOSES FOR REPTILES ARE

NOT FULLY RESEARCHED



7) I stated pollen feeding in moderation



WHAT IS IN MODERATION?

WHAT EXOERIMENTS AND STUDIES

HAVE YOU DONE? BASED ON WHAT YOU SOECILSTE LIKE THIS?



THE RECOMMENDATION TO DUST TOHETHER WITH CALCIUM DAILY MEANS TINY AMMOUNTS TO BE INGESTED



is probably fine, but I want to unpack the logical and mechanistic framework that might or might not support its use. It's perfectly valid for the "alternative" to be using it in moderation. Just because I don't have a "replacement" that I'm willing to claim will fix everything instead of pollen doesn't mean we shouldn't carefully evaluate what we are currently doing.



THEN DO IT

SO FAR,

INJAVE NIT SEEN ANY ATREMPT TO EVALUATE, JUST PUTTING UNDER QUESTION BASED ON. OT REALLY SOLID BASE





I'm not trying to make this about you, I'm trying to make this about science and the chameleons we so cherish. Please respect that and know that I'm not being combative here.



I AM NOT COMBATIVE

I JUST WANT TO STATE

I JAVE ENOUGH EBIDENTE FROM THE WILD

AND ENOUGH OF 40years OF EBIDENCE-BASED EXPERIEMCE THAT POLLEN IS SO BENEFICIAL THAT IT SHOULD BE USED





FRANKLY, no offense, I DO NOT THINK ALL YOUR DOUBTS. RING ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE FOR THE CHAMELEONS

IT IS AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE ON A MINEFULED OF LACK OF INFORMATION BUT SOLID THEIRETICAL AND PRACTICAL INDICATION AND EVIDENCE THAT DELIVERŠED NO SINGLE CONCERN BASED ON ANY CASE. ON THE OTHER SIDE, INLY RHE COMPOSITION OF RHE POLLEN DELIVER ENOUGH

EVIDENŤCEMITNIS BENEFICIAL AND WE HAVE TONS OF EVIDENCE IT IS (i.A. Arcadia Earth-Pro has a Bee polern compoumd)

and is widely and successfullly used and tested



GO BE CANDOR, ALL THE TIME I INVESTED IN ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS ROUGHT SO LITTLE EFFORT THAT I WOULD DEFINITWLY BEZTWE WRITE ANITHER ARTICLE IR BOOK CHAPTER



I WILL BE HESITANT TO CONTINUE THAT WAY DUE TO INEFFICIENCY AND QUESTIONABLE PURPOSE

OK then Petr, how would you like to proceed then? If you don't see value with this discussion then we don't have to continue. I find some of your statements interesting and worth further questioning and discussion, but I don't find your above replies sufficient to fully address my points. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you and you don't want to spend time talking to me directly about this. I guess that's fine and we can agree to disagree on some topics if that's what you'd prefer. I don't have all the time in the world to argue and try to poke holes in what you say, nor would it bring me any joy to do so. I intended to have a discussion (i.e. back and forth). You love chameleons, I love chameleons. It doesn't have to devolve into unpleasantry.

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, but it's unfortunate that you keep dragging this into weird personal territory for unclear reasons. I've never said a single thing against you personally, even behind closed doors. It's not a good look to brag about how little effort it takes to engage in meaningful discourse and it betrays what seems to be a personal animus with me or people willing to discuss these topics scientifically. Maybe this is your "lack of candy coating" and you don't mean it that way but it's not productive. I could respond to criticisms of DATA or QUESTIONS with minimal effort as well by being flippant or by citing personal experiences or feelings- who cares about that? Isn't the goal to have meaningful discussion, as you claimed earlier?

Broadly, I can summarize some of your responses as basically "I have all the relevant data but I haven't published it yet, but will some day". You must agree that this is the crux of a number of your statements above, no? If so, that's not enough for me at this time. I too work hard to publish rigorous science and I recognize it takes a lot of time but has a lot of potential value, even if it's just case reports or smaller studies.

If you don't wish to continue discussing this, I will try not to let it color my thoughts about you in a negative way and I will continue to voice concerns or questions as I see fit knowing that you have some responses in mind, although I don't accept all of them as adequate to rebut some of my points. We can move on if you like, or I can address each point and/or ask for more info. Whatever you prefer.

I appreciate your interest and passion for these wonderful animals whatever the case.

 

[LizardLurkin]

i do not feed with roaches at all. Ever. It is easy to omit them. There are awesome alternatives such as BSF (not BSFL that much), everyone can easily produce at home. I went so far that we produce about 10tons of BSFL every month… In Vietnam.
Concerning donuts: as is written in the Article: as there are no evident risks of donuts, but there are heavy dangers of too little, I would rather go for donuts if speaking extremes.

BSF are great when I manage to have any.
I admit, I just have a curse. Absolute rotten luck with keeping BSFL. I'll order 200, but get major die offs within the week of receiving them. I feed them, try to keep the container damp via spraying with a mist bottle, but they still end up dying. I haven't stumbled upon anything particularly helpful for their care either.
It is a joy getting to put a fly into my chameleon's enclosure, though. Doesn't happen much
Thank you for your insight and response.

 

[DocZ]

BSF are great when I manage to have any.
I admit, I just have a curse. Absolute rotten luck with keeping BSFL. I'll order 200, but get major die offs within the week of receiving them. I feed them, try to keep the container damp via spraying with a mist bottle, but they still end up dying. I haven't stumbled upon anything particularly helpful for their care either.
It is a joy getting to put a fly into my chameleon's enclosure, though. Doesn't happen much
Thank you for your insight and response.

I kept mine in a wine fridge and did fairly well keeping them going

 

[ehdee6]

I'll order 200, but get major die offs within the week of receiving them.

I think it depends on the source of the BSFL too. I've never put mine in the fridge, and the ones I've purchased that were in a fridge are almost always 75% dead. I also live in a climate where we hardly ever see over 25c (77f), so there's not much need to put them in the fridge. Sometimes, I'll even put some in a separate container near a sunny window (or heater in the winter) to try and speed them up to hatch into flies.

I also put them in a bigger container and feed them the same gut load cubes and veggies as the other feeders (sparingly). I'm not going to lie - it makes a mess sometimes and can stink. When it gets like this I add more organic dirt to their bin. It helps tamper the smell and balance the moisture.

I pick the grubs out and put them in a kitchen strainer to rinse under the water to get the dirt away and dump them on a paper towel to dry. Or when I notice my chams need water, I'll just hand feed them wet to hydrate them. It makes the BSFL more active too!

When you're done digging through the container for the grubs, I put that container next to a heat source too, to hatch any I missed into flies. The leftover soil is some of the best you could ever re-use!!

I should add they climb and escape when wet, so the container has to be completely sealed with tiny air holes.

Active container: there's about 500 in there right now.

Used container:

Sorry, don't mean to derail anything there.

 

[jamest0o0]

I wish I knew why this has been the case for you. Maybe you should talk about it?

You do know that was a joke right?

 

[jamest0o0]

Regarding BSFL, I had them reproducing in small rates in my 4ft deep substrate bioactive. Just enough that there was always a few flying around, but not so many that they were out of control. Downside is I felt my chams got sick of eating them after a while.

 

[MissSkittles]

I read it with tears in my eyes. I spent days to correct not only your writings and you are the one biting back and making my staying here miserable. I do not know what joy or effect you get from this.
So sad.
I was hoping not to meet this CF culture when invited to participate, I see nothing changed.

I’m truly sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings and I get no joy from hurting you or anyone else in this world. I do truly have deep respect for you, as I’ve said. I wish I could see the joyful and kind person that you may very well be. This is not what you have shown here in the past from my personal experiences. I believe the last I saw that you were here, you had focused on an older post about improper husbandry and commented that it was wrong husbandry, etc and then you went away again. What is strongest in my memory are some of your more distant postings was telling us here that we are killings our chameleons when young by our substandard husbandry and how much better Europeans care for their chameleons than we do. While I recognize that your goal probably was not to insult us, whatever it was had fallen by the wayside. It can be very difficult to communicate with you without feeling as though there is animosity from you. This is very upsetting for us and I’m sure, for you as well.
One of the roles which the forum plays in the chameleon community is helping new keepers thru personalized attention and husbandry reviews in order to educate them. The goal is for the chameleons to have the very best husbandry and life and for the keeper to appreciate the unique and precious creature they have taken the responsibility for…hopefully to also pass on their knowledge to others. Many of us are here on a regular basis and have been here for a while and we have varied levels of experience and knowledge. When you stop in and speak to us like we haven’t even the slightest clue about husbandry, I find that offensive. We try to be prompt in greeting new members and addressing any misinformation which is brought here. I do assume already that much of what we know and the standards of husbandry may be attributed to your field observations and lifetime of experience, along with that from others. However, there are some things which we aren’t going to agree with you about and we won’t always see eye to eye. We should be able to have an open and comfortable dialogue with you about those things, but alas, this doesn’t happen. Instead, it seems more often than not insults and threats of dead or sick chameleons are thrown around from both sides.
In a perfect world, we would recognize each other’s passion and be able to unite over our love and appreciation for chameleons…you could relate to us some of your observations and we could have discussions on how to improve the lives of our animals in captive environments. But, sadly the world is far from perfect, we continue to insult each other and we are miles apart on the same side. Maybe some day we can at least call a truce.
Yes, I do admit that I needed to exert some effort into remaining tactful in my word choice, and only part of it was about you. When one is angry at the universe (which I was and am and it has less than zero to do with you) the easily found words are the rude ones.

 

[PetNcs]

I

OK then Petr, how would you like to proceed then? If you don't see value with this discussion then we don't have to continue. I find some of your statements interesting and worth further questioning and discussion, but I don't find your above replies sufficient to fully address my points. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you and you don't want to spend time talking to me directly about this. I guess that's fine and we can agree to disagree on some topics if that's what you'd prefer. I don't have all the time in the world to argue and try to poke holes in what you say, nor would it bring me any joy to do so. I intended to have a discussion (i.e. back and forth). You love chameleons, I love chameleons. It doesn't have to devolve into unpleasantry.

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, but it's unfortunate that you keep dragging this into weird personal territory for unclear reasons. I've never said a single thing against you personally, even behind closed doors. It's not a good look to brag about how little effort it takes to engage in meaningful discourse and it betrays what seems to be a personal animus with me or people willing to discuss these topics scientifically. Maybe this is your "lack of candy coating" and you don't mean it that way but it's not productive. I could respond to criticisms of DATA or QUESTIONS with minimal effort as well by being flippant or by citing personal experiences or feelings- who cares about that? Isn't the goal to have meaningful discussion, as you claimed earlier?

Broadly, I can summarize some of your responses as basically "I have all the relevant data but I haven't published it yet, but will some day". You must agree that this is the crux of a number of your statements above, no? If so, that's not enough for me at this time. I too work hard to publish rigorous science and I recognize it takes a lot of time but has a lot of potential value, even if it's just case reports or smaller studies.

If you don't wish to continue discussing this, I will try not to let it color my thoughts about you in a negative way and I will continue to voice concerns or questions as I see fit knowing that you have some responses in mind, although I don't accept all of them as adequate to rebut some of my points. We can move on if you like, or I can address each point and/or ask for more info. Whatever you prefer.

I appreciate your interest and passion for these wonderful animals whatever the case.

am sorry you take all the effort now again to address my comminications and NOTHING about the subject.
this is inefficient
also, you write such a long essay and want me to answer it thoroughly - i had even to divide it into two as it was too big to post, this is also not efficient

if you want me to answer something ralistically please pick up one or two topics related and formulate your questions precisely

please no personal stuff

and I can only answer from my perspective
and from my experience:
because as you know
perfectly, there is very erratic, biassed, methodologically questionable,
not representative account of their food spectrum from the wild out therrnin scientific literature

So, do not crucify me for the fact I have not been able to turn the vast data I have collected ofer decades into scholarly articles.
I try hard. Once again: I am glad to share MY EXPERIENCE, I am not responsible
for all the scholars
not paying attention to thorough analulysis of the food of chameleons in the wild.

I can very well understand the reason: there is a little general benefit of it.
So, they do not pay hours and days and months of costly time and equipment to find out.

last but not least: please understand that chamelekns are opportunistic feeders and that they are combinig the sit-and-wait strategy with slow ambush.
they do not seem to be highly specialized on any item.
So, their gut content is not reflecting a special targeted strategy in finding special feeders but is is rather driven by the random opportunity, therefore it is erratic and higly variable and driven by coincidence and not by targeted selection of some kind of pray. It is also conrextually dependent. When there is wide a availability of grashoppers and flies and bees and butterflies, they will not even pay attention to a darkling beetle.
After one month of nothing to eat they will eat it willingly…there are tendencies and oatterns

and, there is coincidence. a big, fst male of Yemen chameleon will stay years in the same
cage with a female, he will mate with her repeatedly,
he will be perfectly fed ir even iverfed. And ine day, he will shoot her on the head, crush her anull ans seallow it despite the body mass being 69% of his.

therefore, any and every field data must be critically assessed through these lenses, and will rather reflect specific local and spatial availability and seasonality and coincidence than a spscialisation, even if assessed long term (which is hardly realistic even for selected species, and absolutely fictional to have it across the species. In the detailed analyses of food items of chameleons therefore, we get very drtailed and methodologically proper account of a hard to interprete
mess, depending in so many factors, that it might even not make more sense than to label it as non representative.
This is a nitmal appearance in biology in generalists. While the food of the fox depends from whether itnis living in the tundra or heavy agriculturally damaged central Europe and will show variability from natural two-three rodents (the only available in Tundra) and gees and chicken in the other cases, you will find out soecialists like ant eater in feeding exclusively in ants and nothing else.

I do not know whether I was able to explain thoroughly, so I will give you two examples from my student times: A colleague of mine enthusiastically read a lesson on the fantastic finding that the newts feed predominantly on ranid eggs. LOL. he forgot to take into consideration, that the march month is the only in CE when amphibian eggs are available and this specialization is impossible. as they would feed a week in a year, which they obviously do not do. And he was very offended when the professor kindly but strictly criticised his approach to science overrating the exact data above the logic and context of that very time and that very pond.. Another example was a colleague who was secretive with his research stating he has found something awe and extraordinary. The first snake feeding on termites. He namely found the feces full of the heads of the termite soldiers. He wanted to submit to Nature. The oroblem was that he ignored the snake living actually in and near water and being (at that time unpublished) known to feed on frogs. Therefore, the frog was eating the termites and was eaten by the snake. From the frog, everything was digested but the hard chitinous heads of termites neither the frog intestinal tract nor that of the snake was able to process…
Beware, science, of applied blindly can exsctly measure a nonsense. And we randomly see publications like that… The same pseudoscientists attack vigorously the not rigorous methodology of field observation then LOL

please understand this logic.

we can also apply other logic.
some examples.
If you find full stomach of reproductive phase if ants in the faeces, beware it is not a specialization but coincidence of one-two days of rich availability, same if it is a full stomach of flies with some carrion eating beetles - it will be an animal sitting close to a dead large mammalian corpse.
Same, we can absolutely sure say eg that some Populations if C. dilepis do not hydrate from licking rain droplets, as there is simply no rain for 11,5 months in the area they inhabit. We do not need to do any other analyses.

again, if you want my view on the base of 40years field experience, let us continue. If you want to challenge me on the fact it is
not rigorously published, I am not the one to talk to

please help me to be productive and efficient, then I will gladly discuss with you further. but with all respect, not the way like before. I am not going toninvest hours of my time in such ping pong, please understand that it is. ot rudenness, it is survival

 

[kinyonga]

@PetNcs said…”THEY ARE VENOMOUS AND HAVE FORMIC ACID AND ARE BLACK (whichbis a food color often omitted) SOMEONE NEED TO STUDY IT, I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL”…regarding Formic acid…

Here’s a bit of information about insects that contain formic acid…
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/insects-and-formic-acid….195372/

 

[PetNcs]

I’m truly sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings and I get no joy from hurting you or anyone else in this world. I do truly have deep respect for you, as I’ve said. I wish I could see the joyful and kind person that you may very well be. This is not what you have shown here in the past from my personal experiences. I believe the last I saw that you were here, you had focused on an older post about improper husbandry and commented that it was wrong husbandry, etc and then you went away again. What is strongest in my memory are some of your more distant postings was telling us here that we are killings our chameleons when young by our substandard husbandry and how much better Europeans care for their chameleons than we do. While I recognize that your goal probably was not to insult us, whatever it was had fallen by the wayside. It can be very difficult to communicate with you without feeling as though there is animosity from you. This is very upsetting for us and I’m sure, for you as well.
One of the roles which the forum plays in the chameleon community is helping new keepers thru personalized attention and husbandry reviews in order to educate them. The goal is for the chameleons to have the very best husbandry and life and for the keeper to appreciate the unique and precious creature they have taken the responsibility for…hopefully to also pass on their knowledge to others. Many of us are here on a regular basis and have been here for a while and we have varied levels of experience and knowledge. When you stop in and speak to us like we haven’t even the slightest clue about husbandry, I find that offensive. We try to be prompt in greeting new members and addressing any misinformation which is brought here. I do assume already that much of what we know and the standards of husbandry may be attributed to your field observations and lifetime of experience, along with that from others. However, there are some things which we aren’t going to agree with you about and we won’t always see eye to eye. We should be able to have an open and comfortable dialogue with you about those things, but alas, this doesn’t happen. Instead, it seems more often than not insults and threats of dead or sick chameleons are thrown around from both sides.
In a perfect world, we would recognize each other’s passion and be able to unite over our love and appreciation for chameleons…you could relate to us some of your observations and we could have discussions on how to improve the lives of our animals in captive environments. But, sadly the world is far from perfect, we continue to insult each other and we are miles apart on the same side. Maybe some day we can at least call a truce.
Yes, I do admit that I needed to exert some effort into remaining tactful in my word choice, and only part of it was about you. When one is angry at the universe (which I was and am and it has less than zero to do with you) the easily found words are the rude ones.

I understand what you say
it is pittiful you have so much understanding for all the others but accuse me always from being the one being destructive.
frankly, I came back here to be available for some discussion on the topics of chameleons not to open unhealed and painful old wounds. If this will continue I am gone as it has no sense. You do not want to treat me with respect and claim I am a bad boy and I was slept into my face on this forum so many times that I lost all interest to engage. And all
is my fault. After years I have not been here, you do not say welcome Petr we hope for great input from you but you again comment on our
misunderstandings from the past and make everyone clear I am a bad boy and you feel it friedly and proper. It is a textbook example
of double moral.
I am here just for chameleons,
not for drama.
I also come from a completely different culture and speak english as my fifth language and not mothers tongue. I understand that the usually one-language-only approach in the territory you are predominantly focusing on is not opening you for understanding how hard it is to target thing from the perspective on a non native speaker.
Please let us stop this not about chameleon discussion.
I was very enthusiastic to help CF and I was excommunicated and not even thanked, I was accused from bad will, which is opposite of what was my intention.
I do not want to be unwlecome again. I will better leave you alone. Your
members will find me if they are interested in my opinion.