Deadly Chameleon Myth series

[kinyonga]

I have yet to keep a chameleon alive for more than a few months and I can’t figure out why.

I wish I knew why this has been the case for you. Maybe you should talk about it?

 

[PetNcs]

Subject: Reconnecting and Reflecting



Hi Colleagues,

I am genuinely pleased to see that my work continues to gain attention within this community. Although I have stepped back from this forum and have not been actively participating, my dear friend Jann has inspired me to re-engage, and I am here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am more than willing to share my insights and experiences.

I hold immense respect for many wonderful individuals in this community whom I admire and cherish, including JannB, Mrs. Skittles, DocZ, and others. I am always ready to help and engage in meaningful discussions with you.

That said, I feel it is important to explain why my presence here has diminished. Unfortunately, I have often felt unwelcome in this space. There have been countless instances where I was called names and faced unfair challenges, with minimal support or protection from the management. At times, my feelings of being unwelcome were made explicit in writing.

For years, I dedicated my efforts to assist this community. I reviewed a wealth of materials and proposed numerous changes, many of which were dismissed, not because I was incorrect but to avoid offending those who authored them. I realized that I did not wish to spend my energies fighting against windmills.

I am thankful to CF for motivating me to create my own website, which has grown to become the largest resource on chameleons. It features comprehensive information and pictures on all known species and delivers news almost daily, drawing from the fields of science, husbandry, and surprising interdisciplinary perspectives. Through this platform, I actively educate hundreds of thousands of people around the world, positively impacting countless chameleon lives.

Even the ongoing debates here illustrate why I’ve chosen to distance myself; rather than directly asking me a question, people often discuss me behind my back. There seems to be a tendency to misinterpret my words rather than seek to understand my intent. Frequently, I find my intentions distorted or my words misconstrued, leading to unfounded assumptions about my character. If people took the time to read my posts thoroughly, they would find the answers they seek without the need for speculation.

For those who know me personally, they’ll attest that I am a warm-hearted and approachable person. However, introducing new ideas often requires clarity and assertiveness, which can be met with resistance. Not all data is published, and in some cases, it never will be. Thus, consistently demanding scholarly evidence is not always feasible, especially in various areas of study.

After years of dedicated experience with chameleons, when I state that pollinators are a frequent dietary component, it’s not a baseless claim but rather a conclusion drawn from thousands of observations. Arguments like, “I’ve been to Madagascar once and didn’t see chameleons eating pollinators,” cannot undermine years of research and observation.

I have consciously chosen to prioritize sharing knowledge that enhances the well-being of chameleons in captivity. This decision stemmed from a recognition that my time is limited—like everyone else, I have only 24 hours in a day. It is a choice I had to make; I simply could not dedicate equal time to both scholarly writing and practical research.

Unfortunately, the innovation often invites a backlash, especially when challenging the beliefs of established “pseudoreputable” experts in our field. I have faced severe criticism, including being accused of being the reason why the suicide rates among veterinarians in the U.S. are reportedly three times the national average. This is a heavy burden to bear, but it is a choice I made willingly. It is the price I pay for my commitment to both mankind and chameleonkind.

I take pride in the profound influence I have had on the chameleon community, addressing numerous issues that initially drew criticism and hostility. Sadly, I have witnessed my ideas being appropriated and commercialized by others without any credit given to my contributions. While I may not always adhere to political correctness, I remain unwavering in my advocacy.

After decades of speaking out for the chameleon community, I am delighted to see tangible improvements: chameleons are housed in larger, better environments; their lighting is significantly enhanced; they are supplemented with natural, pollen-based nutrients; and their diets are now more balanced, avoiding the overfeeding that was once common. These strides are incredibly satisfying.

I strive to remain humble. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I truly know. Yet, I dare to believe that through my modest sacrifices, I have made a small but meaningful contribution to the welfare of chameleons in captivity and in the wild.

You may not fully grasp the time and effort I have dedicated to initiating and managing reforestation and biotope restoration projects that directly benefit chameleons. These initiatives span countries such as Ethiopia, Kenya, Madagascar, India, Malawi, Uganda, Tanzania, and many others. Thanks to the noble efforts of tens of thousands of individuals, we have planted over a billion trees, creating a healthier habitat for both chameleons and countless other species.

Please pardon my enthusiasm and the sense of responsibility I carry. I recognize that sometimes my passion may come across as harsh, but my intention is always to foster positive change.

Thank you for allowing me to share my journey with you. I look forward to meaningful discussions and collaborations in the future.

Warm regards,

Petr

 

[PetNcs]

I know we have our ways of reducing the ulric acid load of roaches, namely in making their consistent diet not entail the typical gutload diet, but I do wonder what the ultimate takeaway is. Should we not gutload them at all following the typical gutload guide just to be safe?
Roaches are widely available and feeder insect diversity is still quite lacking. They're also less gross to deal with compared to crickets, so it'd be very difficult to omit them completely.

I'm also curious then, does this mean calcium dusting should look like powdered donuts?

The world is being flipped upside down.

i do not feed with roaches at all. Ever. It is easy to omit them. There are awesome alternatives such as BSF (not BSFL that much), everyone can easily produce at home. I went so far that we produce about 10tons of BSFL every month… In Vietnam.
Concerning donuts: as is written in the Article: as there are no evident risks of donuts, but there are heavy dangers of too little, I would rather go for donuts if speaking extremes.

 

[DocZ]

Subject: Reconnecting and Reflecting



Hi Colleagues,

I am genuinely pleased to see that my work continues to gain attention within this community. Although I have stepped back from this forum and have not been actively participating, my dear friend Jann has inspired me to re-engage, and I am here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am more than willing to share my insights and experiences.

I hold immense respect for many wonderful individuals in this community whom I admire and cherish, including JannB, Mrs. Skittles, DocZ, and others. I am always ready to help and engage in meaningful discussions with you.

That said, I feel it is important to explain why my presence here has diminished. Unfortunately, I have often felt unwelcome in this space. There have been countless instances where I was called names and faced unfair challenges, with minimal support or protection from the management. At times, my feelings of being unwelcome were made explicit in writing.

For years, I dedicated my efforts to assist this community. I reviewed a wealth of materials and proposed numerous changes, many of which were dismissed, not because I was incorrect but to avoid offending those who authored them. I realized that I did not wish to spend my energies fighting against windmills.

I am thankful to CF for motivating me to create my own website, which has grown to become the largest resource on chameleons. It features comprehensive information and pictures on all known species and delivers news almost daily, drawing from the fields of science, husbandry, and surprising interdisciplinary perspectives. Through this platform, I actively educate hundreds of thousands of people around the world, positively impacting countless chameleon lives.

Even the ongoing debates here illustrate why I’ve chosen to distance myself; rather than directly asking me a question, people often discuss me behind my back. There seems to be a tendency to misinterpret my words rather than seek to understand my intent. Frequently, I find my intentions distorted or my words misconstrued, leading to unfounded assumptions about my character. If people took the time to read my posts thoroughly, they would find the answers they seek without the need for speculation.

For those who know me personally, they’ll attest that I am a warm-hearted and approachable person. However, introducing new ideas often requires clarity and assertiveness, which can be met with resistance. Not all data is published, and in some cases, it never will be. Thus, consistently demanding scholarly evidence is not always feasible, especially in various areas of study.

After years of dedicated experience with chameleons, when I state that pollinators are a frequent dietary component, it’s not a baseless claim but rather a conclusion drawn from thousands of observations. Arguments like, “I’ve been to Madagascar once and didn’t see chameleons eating pollinators,” cannot undermine years of research and observation.

I have consciously chosen to prioritize sharing knowledge that enhances the well-being of chameleons in captivity. This decision stemmed from a recognition that my time is limited—like everyone else, I have only 24 hours in a day. It is a choice I had to make; I simply could not dedicate equal time to both scholarly writing and practical research.

Unfortunately, the innovation often invites a backlash, especially when challenging the beliefs of established “pseudoreputable” experts in our field. I have faced severe criticism, including being accused of being the reason why the suicide rates among veterinarians in the U.S. are reportedly three times the national average. This is a heavy burden to bear, but it is a choice I made willingly. It is the price I pay for my commitment to both mankind and chameleonkind.

I take pride in the profound influence I have had on the chameleon community, addressing numerous issues that initially drew criticism and hostility. Sadly, I have witnessed my ideas being appropriated and commercialized by others without any credit given to my contributions. While I may not always adhere to political correctness, I remain unwavering in my advocacy.

After decades of speaking out for the chameleon community, I am delighted to see tangible improvements: chameleons are housed in larger, better environments; their lighting is significantly enhanced; they are supplemented with natural, pollen-based nutrients; and their diets are now more balanced, avoiding the overfeeding that was once common. These strides are incredibly satisfying.

I strive to remain humble. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I truly know. Yet, I dare to believe that through my modest sacrifices, I have made a small but meaningful contribution to the welfare of chameleons in captivity and in the wild.

You may not fully grasp the time and effort I have dedicated to initiating and managing reforestation and biotope restoration projects that directly benefit chameleons. These initiatives span countries such as Ethiopia, Kenya, Madagascar, India, Malawi, Uganda, Tanzania, and many others. Thanks to the noble efforts of tens of thousands of individuals, we have planted over a billion trees, creating a healthier habitat for both chameleons and countless other species.

Please pardon my enthusiasm and the sense of responsibility I carry. I recognize that sometimes my passion may come across as harsh, but my intention is always to foster positive change.

Thank you for allowing me to share my journey with you. I look forward to meaningful discussions and collaborations in the future.

Warm regards,

Petr

Thank you for joining us @PetNcs

 

[PetNcs]

Lynda (Kinyonga) is one of most knowledgable members here, if not the most knowledgable. Lynda has like 30 years of experience keeping and such an awesome human being! She has helped me so many times over the years. Lynda, I can’t thank you enough!

I can second that, always kind and approachable and tremendously knowledgeable. just not ready to publish

 

[PetNcs]

I've just lurked this thread because some interesting discussion is coming out of it.

I know I for one am never a fan of people on the internet accusing one of killing their pets, throwing all sorts of words at them. 100%, there are some terrible people out there, and ignorance does harm animals all the time, but I don't think it's a helpful modality. I think it pushes people into standing their ground and being stubborn more than anything, because they feel like they have to defend themselves.
But in general, I don't believe in tough love.
I can understand using buzzwords like pain, suffering, certain death to encourage change, but I don't know if it's the kind of phrasing that fills me with motivation rather than dread and self doubt.
But I do understand it comes from a place of loving the animals.
It's just, individual people? We can be pretty sensitive, and we are deserving of compassion and understanding too.

Re: enclosures and pet keeping in general
I operate as far away from pet guilt as I can. So many reptiles are put out there in the pet trade, and I don't know how to phrase it exactly but...A lot of people will guilt people for buying from big box stores, and I totally understand the reasoning but...That's an entire life behind those glass enclosures. It's a life worth living, if that individual speaks to you. I think without the potential for impulse, we wouldn't have a lot of the star players we have here today. Those who became so, sooo knowledgeable about chameleons and willing to help...And now you all are committed to giving your chams, or other reptiles, the best homes you can. I think the intent of everyone here is far more important than being sad about how they're not living the same as their wild counterparts. That cute petsmart baby chameleon was never going to have that, and might've not even had a 2x2x4!!! I just think what I see here is awesome and pushes far beyond the boundaries I see for a lot of other reptiles, so I don't think anyone should feel bad for the fact that they're in a cage for their lives...In the wild they live like 3 years. I think that the lifespan of chameleons is going up in captivity is a beautiful thing personally. I love to know that they can reach 6, 7, or who knows what under the specialized care advice given here.

Aaaand I'm yapping, but. Yeah. If I get a lot of money and more space, I am always taking it to mind, the double wide enclosures @MissSkittles. Chameleons are so active, I just know all the sapce would get used.

I respect your choice and opinion. It is my choice to use that words. I did many focus groups and studies and the result was surprizing. You get a weak reaction with balanced kindness. Yiu can heavy impact with black/and/whiteness. And yes you get some dead bodies and hate on the way.
I am not happy about it but imagine: Instopped to shout on leople my way as an experiment for several months. I was proactively aplroached by some of my fans asking me whether I am fine. After asking back for reason of that questions I was informed they thought ai am ill
and they miss the controversy and dynamics I cause and asked me to turn back the old Petr.
I am not happy about anyone whom I demotivated and I apologize wholeheartedly. But I sacrifice those who dislike me to those who make proper changes and care for their chameleons better. I was seven denied access to one professional body because some members said they do not want to have my confrontational style in the group and they were offended by me. eing right in the past. This is the price I pay. For the good of chameleonkind.

 

[PetNcs]

@jamest0o0 You know I never like to stir the pot , but isn’t the standard form that we ask new keepers to complete and then is assessed and critiqued by experienced members sort of also saying “this is the right way to do it”

And it is protected very carefully by us as well.

I helped make some of the standard info we present to people

you know there is many many newbies and they need clarity, instruction and standards. and rhere is experienced people and they need evidence, science and understanding. Not always it is clear whilom you are talking to. And you can not make happy everyone. Sometimes Inexplained and they said it is too complicated, they want an advice. i give advice they doubt it blankly, sometimes a newbie wanted scholarly evidence for absence… Hard to navigate that minefield.

 

[PetNcs]

I definitely understand why you feel that way about him, and if anyone actually interacts with him directly it can be very intimidating, and many would be immediately turned off and quickly exit the conversation.
I’m not sure if you know this, but I don’t do that
I love the discussion, and his personality is partly what makes him breed discussion. Some are going to come in just to poop on his theories because they just don’t like him. Not necessarily discussion with him because then you are idiot, you are killing animals, and possibly starting major regional conflicts across the globe by your lack of fog. I get it
But it can engage (and already has here) some the greatest minds in this group. That’s not me. I’m the spoon guy

As far as his background motivations I don’t know what they are. I certainly don’t disagree that he commands attention when he’s around because of how he reacts to things, and maybe that is part of what makes him him

if younwant to know what are my intentions, either read where Instate them or ASK ME. It is absolutely sad and demotivating reading statements like this “I doubt healthy chameleons is his intention”… It really hurts. And the more if it is spoken behind my back. THIS is the main reason why I am not here, this is the culture of CF. To have double moral: to tolerate even insane rudeness of some and excommunicate others who defend themselves or are falsely perceived “rude” not to harm but because of enthusiasm
and because of unidiomatic English, as the fifth language they speak. Frankly,
after reading such statements, I want to get back to my decision and leave this group for ever.

 

[PetNcs]

Meh. Not really digging the final verdicts. It boils down to "dont bring up a problem if you dont present a solution".

"dont feed your cham commercial insects, one that leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death."

Welp guess ill start breeding Madagascar bees or something.

"light dusting is bad". Have you seen the surface area of 1-2 dozen non adult insects that are powdered enough to change color? Are we going back to ghost crickets. Also keep in mind Petr wants use to feed lots of low calorie insects, so thats a huge amount of surface area.

I do agree on alot of his other points. Especially the cages. Im not sure if yall have done "unlimited cage sizes". For me they tend to act like fish, and dont really walk up/down, they kinda stay in one story +-1ft.


Also im results driven. If we do A, and 50%+ chams die around the same age and the same cause, A is bad. But when its "if you dont fog you will get URI and kidney issues" and we have data/chams since the 90's not getting URI and kidney issues and never fogged...

Please show me where J leave a. rito osm
without solution. Show me anyone else who brought to the community more solutions improving chameleon lives than me. If you have questions, ask. But please read at least what I write and do not say I do not provide solutions…

 

[PetNcs]

I am

I did say I could be wrong in my memory. I am in ways a big fan of Petr and what he brought to the hobby was right up my alley. Also there are so many variables to what is causing RIs. I misted my multiple chameleons 45 min to a couple hours a day without ever having an RI, so have many others I’ve known.
It’s probably more about generally husbandry than fogging or misting anyway. I’m skeptical of fogging, not that I disagree with it. Whichever works! I’m not going to judge what’s working for another person, just don’t judge me.

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person! You’re speaking a lot on his scientific approach, but many of his comments in the past have been contrary to a scientific approach. Whether they’re wrong or right I can’t say… He is like the punk rock of Cham care though, bringing up things to challenge the establishment. The man likes the status no doubt. It could be chameleon care, government, or knitting club… you’ll have people like that. He gets us talking about him and that’s what he wants. None of that bothers me, but it doesn’t mean he’s always right, but as a whole I’d agree it pushes the hobby in a good direction. Discussion helps further progress after all, usually.

I am not a status person. I am a humble scholar and student and love to be proven wrong to learn and get better. My sole intention and purpose is to make this planet a better place to live for chameleonkind and mankind

 

[PetNcs]

i

@Sticktongue …you said…”For my dry dry dry air in Idaho… solid sided cages with fog works WAY better than screen, or even 3 sided and screen fronts.. it simply isn’t ideal and IMO not cutting the mustard unless they are 4 solid sides. If I said that 15 years ago on here I would been crucified”…I was keeping chameleons in all glass cages back in the early to mid 80’s…and I never had any issues with RI’s in chameleons. I never fogged cages. I don’t have any issues with people fogging cages, BTW…I just never did it because I would end up with mold in my house. I talked about the glass cages on the ADCHAM forum and I was surprised when Chris Anderson later wrote the article about the glass cages. I didn’t think anyone would use glass cages because of all the people saying it was a no-no.

I had tried screen cages…they got too cool and dry here. I tried screen fronted cages…same thing. I would end up

t is not about glass cages yes or no. glassnis a fantastic material. Itnis about what you aim for to create as an environment and about the means you Chose fir it. in the 80s and 90s, we had to build everything ourselves, glass is a fantastic material. Nowadays oeople want to buy a ready sokution. For many who are not educated and understanding enough, commercial glass tanks are deadly reaps while mesh or hybrid cages are allowing less mistakes (as a rule,
as everything is contextual).
an there we ga newbie is coming… what is better? Tonassume he/she will not be knowledgeable so better hive simple safe instructions with a higj pribability to avoid deadly mistakes or to explain him things which you can not write in a book with 1000 pages thoroughly and hope he will learn, understand, remember all details and do everything properly?

 

[PetNcs]

this

A lot of great stuff here, and I might respond to it in more detail later. However, I want to push back on the bee pollen thing a bit. I use it sometimes, and it's probably relatively harmless in moderation. But the claim that it's ubiquitous in the wild for chameleons is extremely debatable and lacking published research, although several studies have been done to characterize chameleon diet so it's not like it's completely unknown (see below). Furthermore, think about how much pollen is on any given pollinator. Highly variable and often a tiny amount. In my (admittedly, only 1 so far) trip to Madagascar, I didn't observe a single chameleon sitting on a flower or nearby a flower, and I only encountered maybe 3 bees during the entire 2 weeks-much more common were beetles and katydids/hoppers, none of which were covered in pollen. That's an n=1 so shouldn't be taken as overwhelming evidence, but talking to local guides they don't report seeing chameleons sitting at flowers all day eating-same with others who have been to Madagascar. One even stated that "chameleons don't really eat bees", and he has never seen it in many years of guiding. If chameleons were perched waiting for bees to eat all day, guides would probably use flowers as a commonly visited location to show us the chameleons that gather there. They don't do that-the hot spots they take guests to aren't flowers. So I'd argue that A) not all chameleons even encounter pollinators regularly B) Even the ones that do encounter pollinators are variable and the amount of pollen they consume is probably a really tiny amount. Presenting this as if all chameleons are eating mostly bees and thus they should all be supplemented with pollen is not accurate based on the data we have at this time.

Check this out below. Being extremely generous, we can say that maximum 1/4 of the diet of wild chameleons (including flies + ants + bees etc. all as potential pollen-covered insects) is made up of anything resembling pollinators w/pollen on them. For some species, like some tiny calummas and brookesia, it looks like very very little. Even for a study cited by some as showing that most of the diet is bees or pollen-laden insects (Pleguezuelos et al), this is not the case (although yes, it does show that bees, wasps and ants (can't distinguish between these easily) are indeed eaten in moderate amounts). Important to note that usually bees wasps and ants are grouped up in these studies so who knows how few are actually actively consuming or are covered in pollen.

https://www.madcham.de/en/chamaeleonfutter/

Pleguezuelos, J.M., Poveda, R., and Ontiveros, D. 1999. Feeding habits of the common chameleon, Chamaeleo chamaeleon in the southeastern Iberian Peninsula. ISRAEL JOURNAL OF ZOOLOGY. 45:267-276

Why are we not talking about feeding ants? Feeding carrion-consuming insects (which has actually been documented, even in the article above)? Feeding more grasshoppers? Feeding spiders? I think part of the reason for the bee pollen pushing is the "natural is harmless" craze that has been plaguing human healthcare and the supplement industry for generations. It's easy to think of natural things like bee pollen as being panaceas of health and thus impossible to overdo. I think it's easy to fall into this trap but it's largely based on gut feelings not substantiated by data, and in my opinion the bee pollen stuff is barely an exception. It's better characterized in humans. Remember, if we feed pollen and honey to human children under 1, there is a chance they end up hospitalized and near death due to their immature immune system and c. botulinum spores present in these food items. Not to fearmonger, just an example that "natural" substances should still be approached with caution. Who knows if there is anything comparable with pollen/honey in chameleons. Not everything from nature is harmless and everything we do to animals in captivity should be thought about carefully. This is not what is being practiced when arguing that bee pollen should be fed as a staple food source to every chameleon. Why not supplement bugs with fungal spores all the time in captivity, as I saw a lot of mushrooms in Madagascar anecdotally with bugs on them? The list goes on.

In short, I feel that bee pollen is probably fine in moderation. I am more critiquing the rationale leading to it occasionally being promoted as a completely harmless substance. Stating it is basically the answer to many husbandry problems and attributing illnesses to a lack of pollen muddies the picture and gives the impression that we have this figured out mechanistically and practically when we simply don't. If we assume the problems are from a lack of pollen or that pollen cures x, y, z, I believe it reduces our ability to explore other alternatives or fill in gaps that are sorely needed (like considering fungi in the environment, considering carrion-containing prey items, frugivory, etc.). If we really think that bee pollen is the answer we should strive to test this out rigorously. Someday I'd be happy to test that hypothesis (unless someone gets to it before I do) and if it proves out, I would present the data to the public in as unbiased of a way as possible. If it leads to better outcomes I am all for it and would love for that to be the simple answer.

is a classical example of a doubt without base
you mistrust 40years of research and experience but offer nothing to replace
what is your base for it?
I do not want to be aggressive but exactly this approach does NOT help

you discredit pollinatirs and raise absolutely marginal
and minor issues like
carrion eating feeders and ants
and tiur ealky feel it is adequate?

why do you not seek for the real evidence proper way? and find videos and evidence of chamelons sitting in the trees and feeding one bee after another?

 

[nightanole]

Please show me where J leave a. rito osm
without solution. Show me anyone else who brought to the community more solutions improving chameleon lives than me. If you have questions, ask. But please read at least what I write and do not say I do not provide solutions…

Please show me where J leave a. rito osm
without solution. Show me anyone else who brought to the community more solutions improving chameleon lives than me. If you have questions, ask. But please read at least what I write and do not say I do not provide solutions…

You are talking to a community that relies heavily on roaches.

Your roach article ended with:
Do not believe feeding roaches is a good idea. It is not. It is a terrible idea — one that leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death.

You did not advise an alternative, or link to one of your other articles on recommended staples.

Ill be honest, i have read a lot of your articles, but i have never seen a staple article, or even your top three feeders etc.
I would love to read an article on easy to breed staples for chameleons that you recommend.




I know you really like black soldier fly adults. Unfortunately these have a very hard time being grown in people occupied areas indoors.
Celebrate the adult BSF. They are the best staple feeder ever devised

 

[PetNcs]

@javadi speaking of the natural craze in your post… I just have to say, there was a patient in critical condition where the wife was trying to stop half the medications and sneaking turmeric+avocado, among other supplements, through his PEG tube. Had to have a sitter watching her.

I also agree with the carrion feeding insects. This has to be a part of their diet. Not sure how we’d reasonably replicate that though.

carrion feeders are easy to imitate and they are actually a topic I raised not long ago… we just need tonunderstand what it does

i made many experiments in my hundreds chamekeon facility i Vietnam and know the answers already

however they are not published. so I will not be willing to share

 

[DocZ]

if younwant to know what are my intentions, either read where Instate them or ASK ME. It is absolutely sad and demotivating reading statements like this “I doubt healthy chameleons is his intention”… It really hurts. And the more if it is spoken behind my back. THIS is the main reason why I am not here, this is the culture of CF. To have double moral: to tolerate even insane rudeness of some and excommunicate others who defend themselves or are falsely perceived “rude” not to harm but because of enthusiasm
and because of unidiomatic English, as the fifth language they speak. Frankly,
after reading such statements, I want to get back to my decision and leave this group for ever.

if younwant to know what are my intentions, either read where Instate them or ASK ME. It is absolutely sad and demotivating reading statements like this “I doubt healthy chameleons is his intention”… It really hurts. And the more if it is spoken behind my back. THIS is the main reason why I am not here, this is the culture of CF. To have double moral: to tolerate even insane rudeness of some and excommunicate others who defend themselves or are falsely perceived “rude” not to harm but because of enthusiasm
and because of unidiomatic English, as the fifth language they speak. Frankly,
after reading such statements, I want to get back to my decision and leave this group for ever.

I think it’s been very good and interesting so far, and I love his passion

When it comes to his tone, he has spent most of his life devoted to the increase in knowledge about Chams and promoting optimal care of them, and he’s not a young man. He’s been fighting (and he does fight) for their health and safety for a very long time, and all he has seen especially as breeders proliferated and made Chams more available to the general public has made him very passionate about the suffering keepers cause

I like what he does. I’ve been on both ends of spirited discussion with him. I do not think that the enemy of good is better when it comes to health no matter what species we speak of. Human medicine and health would have never changed. Petr is punk rock chameleon care. Always pushing boundaries and questioning your sensibilities. I think it’s essential to growth in any topic

I totally agree that stirring the pot and predicting the death of peoples’ animals when your readers are looking for help has some serious deficiencies to helping people that want to do the best or right thing for their animals. Especially when you don’t offer good alternatives
However it does make people ask questions
Keep asking questions and digging at the edges to find a better alternative

I don’t have this great experience like either of you have, but passion is important. And it should not be discouraged. Petr is one of the most knowledgeable resources of chameleon knowledge that is alive and available to interact with in this hobby

That’s where Petr comes in. Scientific approach, great knowledge base and experience, but little class A evidence. This is how evidence is classed in my world

Petr is Petr as has been said, and I don’t think that’s the important issue in this discussion. Petr seems to come from a deeply natural perspective for Chams. He wants it as close to nature as possible, and I think he’s right. If you can make an unnatural environment as close as possible to the natural environment, it is always the right choice, and I also don’t disagree that many (most probably because most of them aren’t interacting in places like this) are deliberately cutting corners to make things easier for themselves and not maximizing their efforts for the health of their animals

And three pages of discussion in a week is a pretty good example of how Petr is doing great work for your cham

That is his Achilles heal. He presents everything as fact. The massive problem with that is 95% of the people reading it have no background to understand fact vs likely assumptions
I am pretty sure that if anyone followed his recommendations they will have a healthy and happy chameleon. Some recommendations would be difficult to do, but even if someone followed his basic husbandry requirements very closely they would likely have success taking care of their Cham. This makes me personally willing to ignore his presentation, but I’m not a brand new keeper. I am an expert at nothing, so I don’t claim that either.

And I don’t care how he acts. TBH I’m used to world full of a-holes that spout off whatever nonsense they believe as fact all day every day.
It has made me try to look at their message first and react less to their presentation while I decide what they are saying and why they are saying it

It is a horrible way to teach people, but I still love the message

This is exactly why I think Petr’s approach is sound. Substantive discussions with real albeit observational data comes along with some hard data as well

I definitely understand why you feel that way about him, and if anyone actually interacts with him directly it can be very intimidating, and many would be immediately turned off and quickly exit the conversation.

I definitely understand why you feel that way about him, and if anyone actually interacts with him directly it can be very intimidating, and many would be immediately turned off and quickly exit the conversation.
I’m not sure if you know this, but I don’t do that
I love the discussion, and his personality is partly what makes him breed discussion. Some are going to come in just to poop on his theories because they just don’t like him. Not necessarily discussion with him because then you are idiot, you are killing animals, and possibly starting major regional conflicts across the globe by your lack of fog. I get it
But it can engage (and already has here) some the greatest minds in this group. That’s not me. I’m the spoon guy

I think he would enjoy it. I’ve seen it happen in other threads like this (where people just throw his tag on to bring him in) It is exciting and he will add something to the discussion here for sure.

I like Petr. And enjoy having him in discussions. I’ve had some good ones with him

Since my post seems to have upset you, and I can understand why. Here are every quote I have said that regards you in this thread
I apologize for hurting your feelings it is not my intention

I won’t make any comment on how I think this shows my perspective about you. I will leave that up to you

 

[PetNcs]

You are talking to a community that relies heavily on roaches.

Your roach article ended with:
Do not believe feeding roaches is a good idea. It is not. It is a terrible idea — one that leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death.

You did not advise an alternative, or link to one of your other articles on recommended staples.

Ill be honest, i have read a lot of your articles, but i have never seen a staple article, or even your top three feeders etc.
I would love to read an article on easy to breed staples for chameleons that you recommend.




I know you really like black soldier fly adults. Unfortunately these have a very hard time being grown in people occupied areas indoors.
Celebrate the adult BSF. They are the best staple feeder ever devised

well, I have written about feeders a ton, i created simple charts and comlex charts and you come and say you have not read anything…

it is not me not providing it is is yiu not succeeding ti search for it

if you instead accusing me in writing of not providing soulutons (which is false) spend same amount of time just using google or google search on my site, or just move from the Myth 8 on my site few centimetres on same page firther to between myth 13 and 14, you eould discover e.g. this article.
https://www.chameleons.info/l/from-jungle-to-terrarium-the-art-of-nourishing-chameleons/

but yiu better criticise me (and agree with people saying I am criticising too kicj or inadequateky) than to perform what is simpler easier and what would allowe yij to say positive words instead of pointelss accusation

I am sad about this and this is exactly ehat ai face every day

 

[PetNcs]

I did hesitate and thought about posting these links as I know and remember too well some past controversies with Petr. For the most part, he has stayed away from here, except to occasionally dredge up very old posts and tell us how wrong we are, before then leaving us on our own and in peace again. (I’m trying very hard to be tactful)
I think Petr has contributed a great deal to general knowledge about chameleons and husbandry practices, and being human, he also doesn’t know everything. I definitely respect his passion and love for chameleons as well as his intellectual curiosity to research, investigate and hypothesize/theorize. (deep breath - stay tactful) I do think that the more correct info is put out into the aether of the internet, perhaps the more the incorrect will be buried under it. Also, if by linking to his articles promotes open discussion about it here, I see it as worth making the post.

I do have to mention my take about the roaches. There have been some new keepers who mention only or primarily dubia in terms of their chameleon’s diet. I find this single feeder idea upsetting and it’s my feeling that it’s unhealthy, regardless of which feeder it is. I’m all for offering a variety of well kept healthy feeder insects. I do understand it can be more challenging to keep several different types of insect feeders when you have only one insectivore, which is why I often bring up on line vendors offering variety packs.
I want to think many of the more reputable on line vendors aren’t terribly cavalier about the diets of their roaches and other bugs and take care to provide the best feeders they can. If you are buying your feeders from Shady’s Bug O’ Rama, I think it’s safe to be suspicious about the breeding and diets of those bugs.
Like everyone else, I have definite opinions about some of the other articles, but I talk too much as it is, so will shut up now.

I read it with tears in my eyes. I spent days to correct not only your writings and you are the one biting back and making my staying here miserable. I do not know what joy or effect you get from this.
So sad.
I was hoping not to meet this CF culture when invited to participate, I see nothing changed.

 

[nightanole]

well, I have written about feeders a ton, i created simple charts and comlex charts and you come and say you have not read anything…

it is not me not providing it is is yiu not succeeding ti search for it

if you instead accusing me in writing of not providing soulutons (which is false) spend same amount of time just using google or google search on my site, or just move from the Myth 8 on my site few centimetres on same page firther to between myth 13 and 14, you eould discover e.g. this article.
https://www.chameleons.info/l/from-jungle-to-terrarium-the-art-of-nourishing-chameleons/

but yiu better criticise me (and agree with people saying I am criticising too kicj or inadequateky) than to perform what is simpler easier and what would allowe yij to say positive words instead of pointelss accusation

I am sad about this and this is exactly ehat ai face every day

This is why it is hard interacting with you. I did not say anything negative about you. I did not write rows and rows criticising you or calling you out. I even agreed with all the articles including the ghost/donut that i explained a few posts down (aka plain calcium donuts, just not water soluble vitamins).

My only criticism was myth 3 ended with " leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death" but then you did not link to an article to an alternative.

You then spend no less than 5 lines insulting me and saying i can not google or read.

Your linked article says feed house crickets, BSF, and house/bottle flies. Those would be the common stables most people could obtain from a local supplier or even find a starter to start breeding their own.



This could have been a happy interaction:

Nightanole "hey you say roaches will kill my chameleon, what do you recommend that i can get from a local supplier?"

PeTNcs "i do not recommend roaches, but you can feed them house crickets, BSF, and house/bottle flies that you should be able to obtain easily. You should also be able to catch local bees and wasps"

 

[javadi]

this

is a classical example of a doubt without base
you mistrust 40years of research and experience but offer nothing to replace
what is your base for it?
I do not want to be aggressive but exactly this approach does NOT help

you discredit pollinatirs and raise absolutely marginal
and minor issues like
carrion eating feeders and ants
and tiur ealky feel it is adequate?

why do you not seek for the real evidence proper way? and find videos and evidence of chamelons sitting in the trees and feeding one bee after another?

If you are interested in further discourse, I will distill some concrete points below and would definitely be interested in your thoughts about them.

However, I'm disappointed that this is how you phrase your response, especially as I didn't attack you personally whatsoever (and had/have no intention of doing so) and stuck to the data while explaining my extensive reasoning clearly. I don't take kindly to your statement of me "not seeking evidence the proper way" when I did exactly that above and offered plenty of other ideas to explore in a very fair way. I know you have felt attacked by this forum, and I don't wish to continue that feeling, but it goes both ways and I have many of the same goals you do. As such, I'd appreciate if you would show me the same respect I have shown you and your ideas.

1) My "base" for it is everything I wrote in the reply.
A) Various published analyses of chameleon poop showing only small amounts of pollinators.
B) Limitations with study designs leading to inability to distinguish between members of Hymenoptera and thus potential over-reporting of pollinators even in the relatively small proportion of the diet they seem to comprise.
C) Various anecdotal observations of myself, other visitors of Madagascar, and guides who have spent their entire lives there reporting ~0 bee consumption.
D) Evidence that the very guiding practices themselves in Madagascar (honed over many years of observation and designed to see as many chameleons as possible across environments) do not account for any behavioral pattern of chameleons sitting on flowers or being found preferentially near pollinators.
E) Observations surrounding the amount of pollen a pollinator is able to carry and the inherent variability in the process.

To distill my entire set of observations/ideas here to "I went to Madagascar once and didn't see chameleons eating bees" is really not appropriate and I'd hope for better.

2) Why do you feel the issues above such as carrion consumption, beetle consumption, fungal element consumption, ant consumption etc. are "absolutely marginal"? This is the crux of the issue-please explain why or how you think these factors don't matter. It comes off as if you are the one dismissing it right now without offering much reasoning. You don't think Brookesia species might encounter ants regularly? Why or why not? You think tiny calumma species or Brookesia should be supplemented with pollen despite being so diminutive? Why or why not? If you read my statements I bolded the main points, being that I don't think bee pollen is a cure all for every chameleon in captivity in every circumstance.

3) I have read all or almost all of your articles. I have seen the video "Chameleons eat bees" on your youtube channel. Most of the video content is captive veiled chameleons eating bees. I do not doubt that captive chameleons will often eat bees when presented with them, as that is a fact that you (predominantly) and others (including myself) have observed and documented. To my knowledge, this is not currently a point of contention.

4) Even if you produce 10 hours of multiple individual c. calyptratus eating bees in the wild that is one species in one context. Why should this be generalized to all chameleon species in captivity year-round? Do you feel it should?

5) You state that you have studied a lot of chameleon poop in the wild and that you find pollinators in the poop, yes? If so, how do you overcome point 1B above? How do you interpret 1A in the context of your own findings?

6) As I stated earlier (albeit briefly), we have biological basis for how pollen can be harmful. I could go into lots of anecdotes of people seeing problems after feeding it, or the potential accumulation of fat soluble vitamins etc., but that's not really the main point I'm trying to make.

7) I stated pollen feeding in moderation is probably fine, but I want to unpack the logical and mechanistic framework that might or might not support its use. It's perfectly valid for the "alternative" to be using it in moderation. Just because I don't have a "replacement" that I'm willing to claim will fix everything instead of pollen doesn't mean we shouldn't carefully evaluate what we are currently doing.

I'm not trying to make this about you, I'm trying to make this about science and the chameleons we so cherish. Please respect that and know that I'm not being combative here.

 

[PetNcs]

If you are interested in further discourse, I will distill some concrete points below and would definitely be interested in your thoughts about them.

However, I'm disappointed that this is how you phrase your response, especially as I didn't attack you personally whatsoever (and had/have no intention of doing so) and stuck to the data while explaining my extensive reasoning clearly. I don't take kindly to your statement of me "not seeking evidence the proper way" when I did exactly that above and offered plenty of other ideas to explore in a very fair way. I know you have felt attacked by this forum, and I don't wish to continue that feeling, but it goes both ways and I have many of the same goals you do. As such, I'd appreciate if you would show me the same respect I have shown you and your ideas.

1) My "base" for it is everything I wrote in the reply.
A) Various published analyses of chameleon poop showing only small amounts of pollinators.
B) Limitations with study designs leading to inability to distinguish between members of Hymenoptera and thus potential over-reporting of pollinators even in the relatively small proportion of the diet they seem to comprise.
C) Various anecdotal observations of myself, other visitors of Madagascar, and guides who have spent their entire lives there reporting ~0 bee consumption.
D) Evidence that the very guiding practices themselves in Madagascar (honed over many years of observation and designed to see as many chameleons as possible across environments) do not account for any behavioral pattern of chameleons sitting on flowers or being found preferentially near pollinators.
E) Observations surrounding the amount of pollen a pollinator is able to carry and the inherent variability in the process.

To distill my entire set of observations/ideas here to "I went to Madagascar once and didn't see chameleons eating bees" is really not appropriate and I'd hope for better.

2) Why do you feel the issues above such as carrion consumption, beetle consumption, fungal element consumption, ant consumption etc. are "absolutely marginal"? This is the crux of the issue-please explain why or how you think these factors don't matter. It comes off as if you are the one dismissing it right now without offering much reasoning. You don't think Brookesia species might encounter ants regularly? Why or why not? You think tiny calumma species or Brookesia should be supplemented with pollen despite being so diminutive? Why or why not? If you read my statements I bolded the main points, being that I don't think bee pollen is a cure all for every chameleon in captivity in every circumstance.

3) I have read all or almost all of your articles. I have seen the video "Chameleons eat bees" on your youtube channel. Most of the video content is captive veiled chameleons eating bees. I do not doubt that captive chameleons will often eat bees when presented with them, as that is a fact that you (predominantly) and others (including myself) have observed and documented. To my knowledge, this is not currently a point of contention.

4) Even if you produce 10 hours of multiple individual c. calyptratus eating bees in the wild that is one species in one context. Why should this be generalized to all chameleon species in captivity year-round? Do you feel it should?

5) You state that you have studied a lot of chameleon poop in the wild and that you find pollinators in the poop, yes? If so, how do you overcome point 1B above? How do you interpret 1A in the context of your own findings?

6) As I stated earlier (albeit briefly), we have biological basis for how pollen can be harmful. I could go into lots of anecdotes of people seeing problems after feeding it, or the potential accumulation of fat soluble vitamins etc., but that's not really the main point I'm trying to make.

7) I stated pollen feeding in moderation is probably fine, but I want to unpack the logical and mechanistic framework that might or might not support its use. It's perfectly valid for the "alternative" to be using it in moderation. Just because I don't have a "replacement" that I'm willing to claim will fix everything instead of pollen doesn't mean we shouldn't carefully evaluate what we are currently doing.

I'm not trying to make this about you, I'm trying to make this about science and the chameleons we so cherish. Please respect that and know that I'm not being combative here.

let us start new, I apologize, I am not a snowlflake but after having been bashed here like a piece of …., i might iverreact. I will gladly answer all your questions and say my opinion and evidece-based statements or speculations and I will clearly divide them from each other, OK?