Deadly Chameleon Myth series

[jannb]

Speaking of incredible resources being available to discuss with @kinyonga

I’ll give my best advice if you really want to dig into the nature and science of these animals, set you feed to follow @kinyonga and read the articles she posts
If you don’t understand something about the articles have a question, ask.

And when you read one that makes you curious, dig further. Read the articles referenced by the paper. She brings true gold here. It seems like there’s a lot of chameleon research when you read her posts, but it’s a drop in the bucket of the questions we are asking concrete answers for
There will likely never be impactful large scale research done because it’s too small of subject matter and has too little global significance

That’s where Petr comes in. Scientific approach, great knowledge base and experience, but little class A evidence. This is how evidence is classed in my world
Evidence here is almost entirely anecdotal or case series at best. Poor evidence to die on a hill for, BUT it is what we have except the natural world they live in. IMO that is class A evidence of what they have evolved to be in, so it’s a great first place to start, or also a great place to point at our captive “deficiencies” compared to the wild to improve them

Lynda (Kinyonga) is one of most knowledgable members here, if not the most knowledgable. Lynda has like 30 years of experience keeping and such an awesome human being! She has helped me so many times over the years. Lynda, I can’t thank you enough!

 

[kinyonga]

Regarding going to a vet…if I cannot give a solution to what is wrong because I lack the knowledge or lack the medical information to determine what is wrong and what is the answer, then I recommend to go to a good chameleon vet…I am not a vet and I refuse to give medical advice that someone with a medical degree should be giving….and at times I struggle with wondering if I overstep my medical knowledge “limits” even as it is. Also, sometimes some tests need to be run to be sure of what is wrong…so there is no alternative but to go to a vet.

“If your animal is showing signs of illness or injury, it is your responsibility as their caregiver to seek veterinary attention right away.”…says the law…so it leaves us with little option but to go to a vet…so we need to pick one with chameleon experience.

Regarding cages…when I first started keeping chameleons I kept them in long low cages…because here, in Ontario, there were no tall narrow cages available because very few people kept tree dwelling lizards other than a few iguanas….and nobody could keep a chameleon alive longer than a couple of weeks, I was told. The long low cages worked as long as you set up a chimney effect in the cage.

 

[kinyonga]

@jannb …thanks for the compliments. I have a lot left to learn. I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg.

@jannb …I’m always glad when I can help someone…but there are still way too many things I don’t have answers too…and may never have the answers to.

 

[jamest0o0]

I disagree. There were a lot of RI issues before fog. My first panther back in 2009 actually, I had RI issues. I took a 10 year hiatus, and got back 2 years ago. I jumped on the fog bandwagon and have had fantastic results. I feel my chams are hydrated better, and honestly I go though less water, too. Especially on the drainage part. I used to burn through water and empty buckets like there was no tomorrow. My plants seem to do better as well these days. Part of that is likely to better lighting, though. Anyhow point being. I think you can do it well by fogger or misting. BUT! You can get RIs in either situation if doing it improperly. RIs are rarely seen when you know what to do and what not to do. It’s little subtle things that cause the RIs.id venture to say vast majority of RIs are new chameleon keepers.

Petr has great posts, but someone else mentioned he’s black and white which is 100% right. He’s going to tell you what he thinks and it’s sometimes harsh. Harsh and true, and sometimes harsh and incorrect. It’s up to us to pull from his mega load of knowledge and try and not take it to take it personal with “certain death” comments that are clearly, not true. However I do think he makes us think about things a bit more rather than staying complacent. What I enjoy about the hobby now VS 10 years ago is theirs more known, proven ways to keep chams healthy! We can kinda of pick what we like and what works best for us and our environment. For my dry dry dry air in Idaho… solid sided cages with fog works WAY better than screen, or even 3 sided and screen fronts.. it simply isn’t ideal and IMO not cutting the mustard unless they are 4 solid sides. If I said that 15 years ago on here I would been crucified by everyone beside Dr. Anderson and maybe a couple others. It was just barely getting talked about. But now with people trying new things and experimenting, and strong willed people like Petr bringing things up… we’re all thinking through what we’re doing. We may not change anything, but we think about what we’re doing and have a reason for it now.

I did say I could be wrong in my memory. I am in ways a big fan of Petr and what he brought to the hobby was right up my alley. Also there are so many variables to what is causing RIs. I misted my multiple chameleons 45 min to a couple hours a day without ever having an RI, so have many others I’ve known.
It’s probably more about generally husbandry than fogging or misting anyway. I’m skeptical of fogging, not that I disagree with it. Whichever works! I’m not going to judge what’s working for another person, just don’t judge me.

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person! You’re speaking a lot on his scientific approach, but many of his comments in the past have been contrary to a scientific approach. Whether they’re wrong or right I can’t say… He is like the punk rock of Cham care though, bringing up things to challenge the establishment. The man likes the status no doubt. It could be chameleon care, government, or knitting club… you’ll have people like that. He gets us talking about him and that’s what he wants. None of that bothers me, but it doesn’t mean he’s always right, but as a whole I’d agree it pushes the hobby in a good direction. Discussion helps further progress after all, usually.

 

[DocZ]

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person!

I wouldn’t single you out. Me?
I am well aware good enough is not your style my friend

 

[Sticktongue]

I did say I could be wrong in my memory. I am in ways a big fan of Petr and what he brought to the hobby was right up my alley. Also there are so many variables to what is causing RIs. I misted my multiple chameleons 45 min to a couple hours a day without ever having an RI, so have many others I’ve known.
It’s probably more about generally husbandry than fogging or misting anyway. I’m skeptical of fogging, not that I disagree with it. Whichever works! I’m not going to judge what’s working for another person, just don’t judge me.

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person! You’re speaking a lot on his scientific approach, but many of his comments in the past have been contrary to a scientific approach. Whether they’re wrong or right I can’t say… He is like the punk rock of Cham care though, bringing up things to challenge the establishment. The man likes the status no doubt. It could be chameleon care, government, or knitting club… you’ll have people like that. He gets us talking about him and that’s what he wants. None of that bothers me, but it doesn’t mean he’s always right, but as a whole I’d agree it pushes the hobby in a good direction. Discussion helps further progress after all, usually.

Yes you did, I was just jumping on to give my perspective in response to your comment. I also could be wrong, but I think the misting during the day is no issue as long as the heat lamps are off. As hard as we try, theirs just no way we’re ever going to create natural environments because theirs so many small variables we’re not aware of and or can’t create in our tiny cages. Basically comes down to picking a way to handle husbandry the best we can for us as individuals.

Fogging is pretty great though, you should try it. lol. Out of curiosity… why are you skeptical of it? It’s of course not the same as the fog banks that roll in in nature like you mentioned, but neither is mistking misters with no temperature swings from the storm rolling in that they’d get in Madagascar or Africa.

 

[jamest0o0]

Yes you did, I was just jumping on to give my perspective in response to your comment. I also could be wrong, but I think the misting during the day is no issue as long as the heat lamps are off. As hard as we try, theirs just no way we’re ever going to create natural environments because theirs so many small variables we’re not aware of and or can’t create in our tiny cages. Basically comes down to picking a way to handle husbandry the best we can for us as individuals.

Fogging is pretty great though, you should try it. lol. Out of curiosity… why are you skeptical of it? It’s of course not the same as the fog banks that roll in in nature like you mentioned, but neither is mistking misters with no temperature swings from the storm rolling in that they’d get in Madagascar or Africa.

I think that done correctly it’s valuable and probably fine. I have fogged myself, but I just didn’t feel it was necessary. I could be wrong, but water being nebulized and pumped into an enclosure felt like an easy way to introduce bacteria to the lungs even if you keep things clean. With that said, a healthy chameleon will also probably have no issues from it. Seems like a lot of RI’s have a fogger+poor husbandry involved.

I also feel being in an enclosure is much different than being outside with unlimited ventilation. For example, chameleons will live outside in hot/humid/rainy weather on the east coast (I’ve kept mine outside here in PA full time) and don’t seem to have issues, but it would not be ideal in the house/enclosure with conditions like that.

Anyway, all my opinions/feelings and I’m not telling anyone what to do or think I’m sure you’re all fantastic keepers.

 

[MissSkittles]

Regarding going to a vet…if I cannot give a solution to what is wrong because I lack the knowledge or lack the medical information to determine what is wrong and what is the answer, then I recommend to go to a good chameleon vet…I am not a vet and I refuse to give medical advice that someone with a medical degree should be giving….and at times I struggle with wondering if I overstep my medical knowledge “limits” even as it is. Also, sometimes some tests need to be run to be sure of what is wrong…so there is no alternative but to go to a vet.

“If your animal is showing signs of illness or injury, it is your responsibility as their caregiver to seek veterinary attention right away.”…says the law…so it leaves us with little option but to go to a vet…so we need to pick one with chameleon experience.

Regarding cages…when I first started keeping chameleons I kept them in long low cages…because here, in Ontario, there were no tall narrow cages available because very few people kept tree dwelling lizards other than a few iguanas….and nobody could keep a chameleon alive longer than a couple of weeks, I was told. The long low cages worked as long as you set up a chimney effect in the cage.

I am having mixed feelings (personally) about our use and overuse of vets when it comes to chameleons and chameleons only. We are very often quick to send people off to the vet. I’m just as guilty, so don’t be coming for me. I suspect different reasons for it - fear of saying something which may cause harm (bad advice), truly not knowing what is wrong or how to help, emotional fatigue/brain too busy elsewhere for this and of course, it being the best and most appropriate advice. If a brand new member posts about a dangling stuck sperm plug, I don’t know them enough to trust that they have enough common sense to be able to be able to remove it without causing their animal harm. But then we get some who post about their 4+ year old (panther or veiled) who is no longer shooting the tongue all the way out, or is stumbling every once in a while…or other signs of an aging chameleon. After confirming husbandry is perfect, it’s off to the vet we send them. Maybe the vet will find some organ slowdown/impairment which is relatively expected for aging and elderly creatures. Maybe the problem is that we don’t know precisely what age is considered elderly for each species. Achieved ages can be all over the place.
There are very definite times when veterinary care is absolutely needed…and some when it’s just our default advice.

Ahh…cage size. First, I hate cages and everything about the implication of imprisoning any innocent living creature. To pretend I don’t do it, I use the word enclosure. I don’t see height as much of an issue as long as we provide our chams the ability to be higher up than us, so that they feel safe. That is their natural instinct and protection from us ground dwellers. I started with the chameleon kit sized enclosure, 2 sad fake vines and even sadder hard plastic pants. (poor Grumpy) As quickly as I could afford, I updated and improved and it took me a few years to get to where I’m mostly satisfied with what I have provided my chameleons with. Each has two of the 2x2x4’ enclosures attached side by side, giving each of them 4’ width. After seeing how they use every bit of it, I wish I could make it wider. There is no way at all I could ever go back to keeping any chameleon in just a 2x2x4’ enclosure for the duration of its life. That seems cruel to me. This is my personal feeling and I am not criticizing anyone, so don’t come for me. I am an adult with my own home and have the ability to provide extra size and understand that many just can’t…so again, don’t come for me! However, I am going to go against my usual ‘niceness’ and say, if you are keeping your (panther or veiled sized) chameleon in anything smaller than the 2x2x4’ (or equivalent) and have the means and ability to upgrade and choose not to, you totally suck, I pity your chameleon and I don’t like you. Now you can come for me…but only if you read this last sentence correctly.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”If a brand new member posts about a dangling stuck sperm plug, I don’t know them enough to trust that they have enough common sense to be able to be able to remove it without causing their animal harm.”…this is one of my concerns too and sometimes why I say see a good chameleon vet. I don’t think I’ve said that if the chameleon is having issues from age alone.

You said…”There are very definite times when veterinary care is absolutely needed…and some when it’s just our default advice.”…for me, the default advice is usually because I don’t feel comfortable having someone treat their chameleon on their own….as already mentioned.

Re cages…oops…I mean enclosures!
One of the things that has always bothered me about keeping many types of pets is that we cage them in some way…and I’ve often thought about that being something I would not be happy with if I were that animal…but then I think…shouldn’t cats, dogs, horses and a number of other animals be free too…not confined to rooms, houses, fields, etc?

Hmmm…Im not likely to ever come for you!

 

[jamest0o0]

Want to add my 2 cents with caging because I have a father in law who also gets bothered a lot by animals in cages… and I respect that a ton, it shows care for animals. The problem is whether we want it to happen or not, their natural ecosystems are being obliterated for one reason or another. The only way to keep many animals will be in captivity. So IMO we should get good at it now and captive animals will learn to deal with it unfortunately. Not that we should ignore the environment, but realistically it’s not going to change for the better overnight.