Deadly Chameleon Myth series

[jannb]

Speaking of incredible resources being available to discuss with @kinyonga

I’ll give my best advice if you really want to dig into the nature and science of these animals, set you feed to follow @kinyonga and read the articles she posts
If you don’t understand something about the articles have a question, ask.

And when you read one that makes you curious, dig further. Read the articles referenced by the paper. She brings true gold here. It seems like there’s a lot of chameleon research when you read her posts, but it’s a drop in the bucket of the questions we are asking concrete answers for
There will likely never be impactful large scale research done because it’s too small of subject matter and has too little global significance

That’s where Petr comes in. Scientific approach, great knowledge base and experience, but little class A evidence. This is how evidence is classed in my world
Evidence here is almost entirely anecdotal or case series at best. Poor evidence to die on a hill for, BUT it is what we have except the natural world they live in. IMO that is class A evidence of what they have evolved to be in, so it’s a great first place to start, or also a great place to point at our captive “deficiencies” compared to the wild to improve them

Lynda (Kinyonga) is one of most knowledgable members here, if not the most knowledgable. Lynda has like 30 years of experience keeping and such an awesome human being! She has helped me so many times over the years. Lynda, I can’t thank you enough!

 

[kinyonga]

Regarding going to a vet…if I cannot give a solution to what is wrong because I lack the knowledge or lack the medical information to determine what is wrong and what is the answer, then I recommend to go to a good chameleon vet…I am not a vet and I refuse to give medical advice that someone with a medical degree should be giving….and at times I struggle with wondering if I overstep my medical knowledge “limits” even as it is. Also, sometimes some tests need to be run to be sure of what is wrong…so there is no alternative but to go to a vet.

“If your animal is showing signs of illness or injury, it is your responsibility as their caregiver to seek veterinary attention right away.”…says the law…so it leaves us with little option but to go to a vet…so we need to pick one with chameleon experience.

Regarding cages…when I first started keeping chameleons I kept them in long low cages…because here, in Ontario, there were no tall narrow cages available because very few people kept tree dwelling lizards other than a few iguanas….and nobody could keep a chameleon alive longer than a couple of weeks, I was told. The long low cages worked as long as you set up a chimney effect in the cage.

 

[kinyonga]

@jannb …thanks for the compliments. I have a lot left to learn. I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg.

@jannb …I’m always glad when I can help someone…but there are still way too many things I don’t have answers too…and may never have the answers to.

 

[jamest0o0]

I disagree. There were a lot of RI issues before fog. My first panther back in 2009 actually, I had RI issues. I took a 10 year hiatus, and got back 2 years ago. I jumped on the fog bandwagon and have had fantastic results. I feel my chams are hydrated better, and honestly I go though less water, too. Especially on the drainage part. I used to burn through water and empty buckets like there was no tomorrow. My plants seem to do better as well these days. Part of that is likely to better lighting, though. Anyhow point being. I think you can do it well by fogger or misting. BUT! You can get RIs in either situation if doing it improperly. RIs are rarely seen when you know what to do and what not to do. It’s little subtle things that cause the RIs.id venture to say vast majority of RIs are new chameleon keepers.

Petr has great posts, but someone else mentioned he’s black and white which is 100% right. He’s going to tell you what he thinks and it’s sometimes harsh. Harsh and true, and sometimes harsh and incorrect. It’s up to us to pull from his mega load of knowledge and try and not take it to take it personal with “certain death” comments that are clearly, not true. However I do think he makes us think about things a bit more rather than staying complacent. What I enjoy about the hobby now VS 10 years ago is theirs more known, proven ways to keep chams healthy! We can kinda of pick what we like and what works best for us and our environment. For my dry dry dry air in Idaho… solid sided cages with fog works WAY better than screen, or even 3 sided and screen fronts.. it simply isn’t ideal and IMO not cutting the mustard unless they are 4 solid sides. If I said that 15 years ago on here I would been crucified by everyone beside Dr. Anderson and maybe a couple others. It was just barely getting talked about. But now with people trying new things and experimenting, and strong willed people like Petr bringing things up… we’re all thinking through what we’re doing. We may not change anything, but we think about what we’re doing and have a reason for it now.

I did say I could be wrong in my memory. I am in ways a big fan of Petr and what he brought to the hobby was right up my alley. Also there are so many variables to what is causing RIs. I misted my multiple chameleons 45 min to a couple hours a day without ever having an RI, so have many others I’ve known.
It’s probably more about generally husbandry than fogging or misting anyway. I’m skeptical of fogging, not that I disagree with it. Whichever works! I’m not going to judge what’s working for another person, just don’t judge me.

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person! You’re speaking a lot on his scientific approach, but many of his comments in the past have been contrary to a scientific approach. Whether they’re wrong or right I can’t say… He is like the punk rock of Cham care though, bringing up things to challenge the establishment. The man likes the status no doubt. It could be chameleon care, government, or knitting club… you’ll have people like that. He gets us talking about him and that’s what he wants. None of that bothers me, but it doesn’t mean he’s always right, but as a whole I’d agree it pushes the hobby in a good direction. Discussion helps further progress after all, usually.

 

[DocZ]

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person!

I wouldn’t single you out. Me?
I am well aware good enough is not your style my friend

 

[Sticktongue]

I did say I could be wrong in my memory. I am in ways a big fan of Petr and what he brought to the hobby was right up my alley. Also there are so many variables to what is causing RIs. I misted my multiple chameleons 45 min to a couple hours a day without ever having an RI, so have many others I’ve known.
It’s probably more about generally husbandry than fogging or misting anyway. I’m skeptical of fogging, not that I disagree with it. Whichever works! I’m not going to judge what’s working for another person, just don’t judge me.

@DocZ with respect I feel I’m being unfairly singled out as well in your posts . I am most definitely not a ‘good enough’ kind of person! You’re speaking a lot on his scientific approach, but many of his comments in the past have been contrary to a scientific approach. Whether they’re wrong or right I can’t say… He is like the punk rock of Cham care though, bringing up things to challenge the establishment. The man likes the status no doubt. It could be chameleon care, government, or knitting club… you’ll have people like that. He gets us talking about him and that’s what he wants. None of that bothers me, but it doesn’t mean he’s always right, but as a whole I’d agree it pushes the hobby in a good direction. Discussion helps further progress after all, usually.

Yes you did, I was just jumping on to give my perspective in response to your comment. I also could be wrong, but I think the misting during the day is no issue as long as the heat lamps are off. As hard as we try, theirs just no way we’re ever going to create natural environments because theirs so many small variables we’re not aware of and or can’t create in our tiny cages. Basically comes down to picking a way to handle husbandry the best we can for us as individuals.

Fogging is pretty great though, you should try it. lol. Out of curiosity… why are you skeptical of it? It’s of course not the same as the fog banks that roll in in nature like you mentioned, but neither is mistking misters with no temperature swings from the storm rolling in that they’d get in Madagascar or Africa.