Continuation of this thread....http://www.chameleonforums.com/chameleons-skin-reflect

[kinyonga]

This is meant to continue the discussion in this thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/chameleons-skin-reflects-uv-light-37503/

fluxlizard said..."My comments were not meant to be in any way a criticism of your husbandry specifically. I was simply answering your question about why I felt uv lighting could compensate for small mistakes in diet and temperature. My apologies if you felt I was critiquing anything you are doing (except for the part where I was really interested in the longevity of your animals and how your temps relate to that- but that's a good thing!)"...I understand that. The reason I keep the females a little cooler is in the hopes of slowing their metabolism just a little so that they won't be so hungry. I know that controlling their reproduction is not what would happen in the wild but we aren't in the wild and I was more interested in them living long healthy lives than I was in them reproducing. Also since so many people lose their chameleons to reproductive issues I decided to make it public. This loss of chameleons to reproductive issues has also caught the eye of people in the veterinary field and the zoo...and resulted in a study that finished in September.

I also understand why you have decided to allow your chameleons to bask at higher temperatures, but I worry about what this is doing to your female veileds.

You said that temperature range of activity is not the same as POT (preferred optimal temperature)...and I can't find anything on POT for veileds but some of the sites I provided talk about preferred body temperature, critical maximum, critical thermal maximum, etc. for several species that should give some indication of what chameleons need/prefer since all the ones listed say that the PBT is in the range of 30 to 32C.

I'm sure that temperatures that are suboptimal all year round will weaken the immune system and affect nutrition.

Re: temperatures on rainy days...you said..."Does this mean that they are able to absorb nutrition at maximum efficiency or that their immune system is functioning at maximum potential on rainy days?"...of course not...but they don't stay at those temperatures all the time. I know you know that!

I realize that 80 is lower than 95F by quite a bit, but if what I do with the female chameleons was bad for them, then wouldn't I be ending up with sick thin short-lived chameleons?

One more thing...high temperatures can denature the enzymes, but lower temperatures (up to a point) should only slow down their activity...not stop it. (This comment is not intended to criticize your temperatures.)

You said..."Thank you very much for all the pdfs- I have only had a few quick minutes to skim them, but I will enjoy taking my time reading them and digesting them"...I have to go back and read the one you included too.

I'm still going to give this more thought....its all interesting and makes me think!

 

[fluxlizard]

I worry about what this is doing to your female veileds.

Don't worry too much- when I'm talking veileds, I'm talking mostly past tense. I had a lot of them in the 90s, but as I explained, since 2000 I haven't had many chameleons. Which is why my experiences are written mostly in past tense and why I am somewhat cautious that some of what I "know" could be out of date. I currently have a single pair of veileds obtained as supposedly florida WC adults about 18 months ago, and really, that pair is more like my son's pair, with me keeping an eye on things to make sure they are cared for properly. Your comments now have me interested in keeping a few babies back and trying some things- probably your routine, as well as a shorter seasonal change and summer highs closer to the way I have been doing things because I want to try and understand what is going on with your females. I recently saw comments somewhere here on the forums about male/female cohabitation possibly limiting clutch size and frequency, so I may try something with that as well.

I know that controlling their reproduction is not what would happen in the wild

Well now, something seems to be doing that as wild calyptratus tend to have smaller clutch sizes. I've always thought it was a calories thing, but have wondered if seasonal changes could account for it also.

and resulted in a study that finished in September.

Be sure to tell us when and where the study is published. I would really like to read it. If you are allowed, a pdf on the forums would be wonderful.

several species that should give some indication of what chameleons need/prefer since all the ones listed say that the PBT is in the range of 30 to 32C.

Not necessarily but makes one stop and think that's for sure. You've got me now running temp requirements of other lizard genus through my head now and I have to admit that I'm surprised at the similarities in temp requirements across species within particular genus that I've kept...

I realize that 80 is lower than 95F by quite a bit, but if what I do with the female chameleons was bad for them, then wouldn't I be ending up with sick thin short-lived chameleons?

Yes. Which is why I keep saying I am interested in your results and my comments are in no way intended as a direct critique of your husbandry.

I have to admit though, that your results are really hard for me to swallow. I don't mean that I disbelieve you, I mean they are difficult for me to understand and figure out because they stand the basics of what I know about lizards on it's head! I mean with lizards, things continue to surprise me, but this is the biggest surprise of all!

I'm not saying that as someone who has bred veileds and panthers or something- I've bred dozens of species (maybe around 4 or 5 dozen or so- it's been a while since I stopped and added them up and I've addded a few to the list since the last time) over the past nearly 30 years since I bred my first anoles when I was 12. Ability of an animal to reach it's desired POT has always been basic to success to keeping it healthy and thriving over the long haul. I would not dream of keeping iguanas for example (which have similar pot to what I have believed until now for veileds) most of the year at 80-85- it would invite problems because of reduced ability to digest properly and reduced immune system function. Could they live? probably. Would they thrive? No. Would they successfully reproduce? I doubt it.

One more thing...high temperatures can denature the enzymes, but lower temperatures (up to a point) should only slow down their activity...not stop it.

Maybe so, like I said, I'm a big picture kind of guy and am less interested in "can the enzymes continue to operate" than I am in observing how the lizard is doing. If the lizard looks good, I'm sure his enzymes are managing. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily give full credit in a result to digestive enzymes, critical though they may be to that result. Delivery of what those enzymes are breaking down to the rest of the system is also critical to the result, and I'm not going to pretend to understand all of what is going on from the moment a bit of nutrition enters the mouth to the point it is delivered to the tip of a toe because I haven't studied that. But I'm pretty confident it goes beyond enzymes at some point. I'm also confident that if a lizard wants to sit and cook at 100 degrees, it is probably safe for it's enzymes for it to do this, or it wouldn't have the instinct to do this. I'm pretty sure natural behavior is safe for its enzymes.

If high temperatures are not needed for optimal absorption of nutrients, the question of why provide basking lights at all begs an answer and why these lizards will bask at higher temperatures given the choice begs an answer.

So, I guess my thinking from our conversation here is this- either the POT for veileds is lower than I have always believed (and many others- I'm alone in this discussion, but my thinking on temp was almost literally everybodies thinking on temp back when I was really into veileds) which is possible, especially now that I am considering the idea that lizards within a genus usually seem to have very similar POTs, but still hard for me to swallow when I have seen veileds basking in spots at 100 degrees (and over) when ambient temps in the room were mid 80s) or they are incredibly durable and hardy lizards that can cope with long term cooler temperatures (likely- I've always believed their natural environment made them into very durable lizards), and/or that your results demonstrate the benefits of seasonal cycling (also likely).

One thing is for sure- I'm interested in veileds again!

 

[CNorton]

(only 2 threads worth reading in the last 3 months)

Thanks you two, seriously thought provoking and challenging to the very core of what we think we know as good keepers.

 

[kinyonga]

CNorton...glad you find the threads interesting!

fluxlizard said..."Your comments now have me interested in keeping a few babies back and trying some things- probably your routine, as well as a shorter seasonal change and summer highs closer to the way I have been doing things because I want to try and understand what is going on with your females. I recently saw comments somewhere here on the forums about male/female cohabitation possibly limiting clutch size and frequency, so I may try something with that as well"...I hope you figure it all out. I think its the whole way I keep them from gutloading to supplementing to feeding to temperature that has produced the results I have had. There have been people who try it who don't get to the point I'm at and I think its because there are differences in what they do and what I do..and it might even be that they live in a warmer area than I do so the temperatures are different year round. One more thing...although I have been able to stop the veiled females from reproducing, I have not stopped the panthers...they still produce small clutches.

You said..."I've always thought it was a calories thing, but have wondered if seasonal changes could account for it also"...I think that there are a number of things that play into the number of clutches and the size of all chameleons in the wild...maybe even things like rainfall? Look at the C. chamaeleo, it only produces one clutch in the wild and from my limited experience with them in captivity, they don't reproduce in captivity easily (I got second clutches from retained sperm)...could it be the brumation or is there something that we are not doing for them in captivity that is being done in the wild? What about Parson's chameleons...why do they take well over a year to hatch? How often do they produce a clutch in the wild?

You said..."Be sure to tell us when and where the study is published. I would really like to read it. If you are allowed, a pdf on the forums would be wonderful"...I will try to remember! It was a very interesting study!

You said..."Yes. Which is why I keep saying I am interested in your results and my comments are in no way intended as a direct critique of your husbandry."...I understand that...I'm asking questions of your methods for the same reasons.

You said..."I have to admit though, that your results are really hard for me to swallow. I don't mean that I disbelieve you, I mean they are difficult for me to understand and figure out because they stand the basics of what I know about lizards on it's head! I mean with lizards, things continue to surprise me, but this is the biggest surprise of all!"...things continue to surprise me too.

You said..."I would not dream of keeping iguanas for example (which have similar pot to what I have believed until now for veileds) most of the year at 80-85- it would invite problems because of reduced ability to digest properly and reduced immune system function. Could they live? probably. Would they thrive? No. Would they successfully reproduce? I doubt it."...I wouldn't try it with iguanas either...but I have no real reason for thinking that.

Sorry I made you interested in veileds again! (evil grin)

 

[kinyonga]

Ovulation...food for thought...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=6Nx...resnum=3&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[fluxlizard]

kinyonga-

If it's alright with you, I'd like contact you via private message when I get ready to set some of this up this fall and maybe keep in contact with you as I go along, at least for the first little while, to try and get as close as I can to what you are doing.

I completely understand that it encompasses everything from gutloading on- that's what I'm saying too about what I have done in the past- heat, nutrition, lighting- all work together.

We are sort of both looking at opposite ends of one truth here- the truth being that these variables do not always necessarily have the same value but still can reach a solution.

if a=1, b=2, c=3 then a+b+c=6, if a=2, b=2, c=2 then a+b+c still equals 6

and different solutions might be needed to solve different problems (a long lived pet vs a reproductively active female vs a balance of the two vs a male pet, etc).

I mean that is a very simple way of looking at it, and there are certainly minimum values that must be met for each variable, but anyway, it serves to illustrate my thinking.

Meanwhile I need to know ahead of time- using your method, do you grow the females at those cooler temps or should I convert females over after they grown a bit? If you grow them, what is your ambient temp?

 

[kinyonga]

Of course you can contact me privately!

I raise the male and female veileds the same until they reach sexual maturity.

Here are two sites that show the way I keep them and describe it too....
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=109
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html

 

[bobcochran]

One thought I haven't heard mentioned here: chameleons and other lizards change their color to absorb or reflect light (heat) depending on their internal temps. It is possible to raise the body temp higher than ambient temps by absorbing more light. This would make the actual temperature of the basking spot not the highest achievable body temp for the Cham. I put my panthers out in the sunlight in the winter if temps are above 65f. (South facing exposure), yes they do bask longer and more often than if it is warmer, but they do achieve operational internal temps indicated by their coloring becoming lighter, their activity level increasing and normal feeding behavior. Go sit in the sun when it's 60f. in black clothing then change to white. So the wattage of the bulb or the actual basking site temp may have quite a range and still be effective.
This IS a great thread!

 

[OldChamKeeper]

One thought I haven't heard mentioned here: chameleons and other lizards change their color to absorb or reflect light (heat) depending on their internal temps. It is possible to raise the body temp higher than ambient temps by absorbing more light. This would make the actual temperature of the basking spot not the highest achievable body temp for the Cham. I put my panthers out in the sunlight in the winter if temps are above 65f. (South facing exposure), yes they do bask longer and more often than if it is warmer, but they do achieve operational internal temps indicated by their coloring becoming lighter, their activity level increasing and normal feeding behavior. Go sit in the sun when it's 60f. in black clothing then change to white. So the wattage of the bulb or the actual basking site temp may have quite a range and still be effective.
This IS a great thread!

This is the heart of the matter. Personally I've used my Cooper temp gun on chameleons basking and found their surface temp to be higher than the air temperature. I need to come out of my cave more often, I thought this was common knowledge. Nice thread by the way

 

[fluxlizard]

Wow!

This is an old thread resurrected- (5 years old). I was pretty new to the forums but not to chameleons and was kind of surprised by some ideas here that were new to me at that time.

One thought I haven't heard mentioned here: chameleons and other lizards change their color to absorb or reflect light (heat) depending on their internal temps. It is possible to raise the body temp higher than ambient temps by absorbing more light. This would make the actual temperature of the basking spot not the highest achievable body temp for the Cham. I put my panthers out in the sunlight in the winter if temps are above 65f. (South facing exposure), yes they do bask longer and more often than if it is warmer, but they do achieve operational internal temps indicated by their coloring becoming lighter, their activity level increasing and normal feeding behavior. Go sit in the sun when it's 60f. in black clothing then change to white. So the wattage of the bulb or the actual basking site temp may have quite a range and still be effective.
This IS a great thread!

This is the heart of the matter. Personally I've used my Cooper temp gun on chameleons basking and found their surface temp to be higher than the air temperature. I need to come out of my cave more often, I thought this was common knowledge. Nice thread by the way

While it is a fact that lizards will store thermal energy kind of like a brick and build it up higher than air temperature that really is the opposite of the point of what we were discussing in this thread at that time.

A side note about both of your observations is that at least in my experience, indoor lighting is not the equivalent of sunlight when it comes to the lizards' ability to build heat and raise body temperature greatly above ambient conditions- for example- I've had bearded dragons breed outdoors after a light freeze at night and sunny but very mild mid 60s the next day. Indoors my dragons would be asleep in similar conditions under artificial lighting- they would go dormant on such a day indoors under an incandescent. Sunlight really is different- maybe solar radiation has a penetrative quality or something.

The point of this thread however was kind of the opposite of being able to reach optimal temperature, and rather, a purposeful denial of those temperatures to the females.

A couple of definitions- by optimal temperature I am referring to a temperature at which the lizard is able to select on it's own what it prefers and as a result it is operating with "all systems go" including not only simply immune and digestive but also the reproductive system.

And by purposeful I mean intentional, and with the purpose of turning off the reproductive system.

The method that was being discussed in this thread was the intentional lowering of temperature with the goal of slowing or eliminating the activity of the reproductive system of the females, thereby lengthening their lifespans.

You guys are talking about something different altogether it sounds like- more of a "how low can you go and still have a lizard achieving it's self-preferred body temperature" kind of thing. If you have that kind of setup where the lizard still achieves preferred operating temperature, the lizard will not have an inactive reproductive system. Veileds will self-select temperatures which allow for reproduction.

Given a huge cage with a proper thermal gradient and a choice between the lower temps we were discussing in this thread, and higher temps, the lizards will instinctively self-select the higher temps, and their reproductive systems will remain active.