Change in behavior/bowel movements

[Geckoflora]

I am a first time chameleon owner. I've had my male panther chameleon, Ramses, for about six months now, and it's been my first time owning a tropical reptile. I had a female panther chameleon that I got at the same time, who I just lost last week due to egg complications. I am worried about Ramses and I really don't want to risk losing him too, so I figured it was better safe than sorry to reach out to some other owners.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther chameleon, male. Caring for him about six months. I believe he is about 1.5 years old.
• Handling - Usually I handle him every few days, but recently it's been daily, as I'm trying to make sure he's healthy. I'll explain more about that.
• Feeding - He is being fed mostly crickets, with mealworms every few days and sometimes waxworms. I did feed dubia roaches for a few weeks but he did not have as much interest in them. I feed him large crickets every other day, usually 5-10 depending on the size. They are being gutloaded on Fluker's calcium cricket feed.
• Supplements - Crickets are always dusted with Miner-All Calcium with D3. Every two weeks I dust crickets with a Reptivite Vitamin A supplement.
• Watering - Currently misting 2-3 times a day, more if I'm around all day. He drinks off of the leaves when I mist. Starting today I held a bowl in his cage at an angle so he could drink a good amount from the drips/run off, since I'm worried about dehydration.
• Fecal Description - No recent droppings, but last time I observed them they seemed normal. Urates were slightly orange if I'm remembering correctly, which I believe means he was dehydrated?
• History - I got him from a previous owner who was planning on breeding him but had to move overseas. I have not tried to breed him at all. He was last seen by a vet three months ago for excess mucus in the mouth and crust around the eyes (possibly URI), and was treated with oral antibiotics and eye drops. Vet says it was likely caused by Vit A deficiency (I wasn't giving it at the time), and the vet provided me with the supplement I use now. The URI cleared up just fine.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen, 24 x 24 x 48 inches
• Lighting - UVB- All Living Things brand 20" hood with ALT tropical bulb, less than 6 months old (will be upgrading to a larger hood soon). Heat- Currently had three lamps on his cage, as his cage is located in a cold area of my house and they are needed to keep it warm enough. Two daylight lamps left on 12 hours, one purple night light lamp left on 24 hours (it gets too cold at night otherwise).
• Temperature - Basking spot with the three lamps is currently about 90 F-97 F within the area of the three lamps. Ambient temps can reach 70 F. Night temps around 68 F. I use a Nat Geo laser thermometer to measure + a dial thermometer.
• Humidity - Humidity varies, usually around 40-50 when I haven't misted recently. After misting it goes up to 70-75. I use a dial hygrometer to measure.
• Plants - Four live plants currently- two large pothos, one umbrella plant, and one peperomia plant.
• Placement - Cage located in a walk-in basement, about a foot and half away from glass doors. Cage is up on a table, so the top is about 6-7 feet off the ground. Not sure if it's relevant, but there are three other lizard cages in the same area, with a guinea pig cage directly beside my chameleon cage.
• Location - Northern Virginia, US

So here's the gist of the problem: Ramses hasn't had a bowel movement in at least six days, and his behavior has changed a bit.

Usually Ramses poops about every 2-4 days, but it's been at least six days now. And I say at least because that's when I last changed out his substrate (paper towel) and realized he hasn't gone since, so it may have been longer than six days.

His odd behavior makes me think this is all tied together. Basically, he won't bask. He sits mostly on the bottom branch of his cage (which is about a foot off of the paper towel- everything in his cage is suspended) and is usually cold to the touch. I added two extra heat lamps to bump up the temps in his cage but it hasn't seemed to make a huge difference. His feeding behavior has also changed. Usually when I drop the crickets in he races over to start eating, but now he just watches them and is mostly uninterested (though he eventually hunts them all down, so he's still eating, just with less enthusiasm). Oddly enough, he will still readily take food from my hand, or if the crickets start crawling on his plants he becomes more interested. Maybe this is just him getting picky? He doesn't seem to want them as much if they're on the screen.

My current assumption is that he's been cold from not basking, so he isn't as active for hunting, and his metabolism is slow, which is why he hasn't pooped in awhile. I was also worried about dehydration, so I'm trying to mist him extra, and today I watered him using a bowl for a makeshift drip, and he drank quite a bit. I hope the extra water helps him.

I also dipped part of a cricket in mineral oil and fed that to him, as I read it is supposed to be helpful in stimulating a bowel movement. If I don't see results by tomorrow afternoon, I'll be trying a soak with him, which I'm sure he will dislike.

Has anyone experienced anything like this? Please let me know if I'm doing something wrong. I know it hasn't been that long of a time for him not to poop, but I don't want to wait and have something bad develop. I'm open to any suggestions or tips! Thanks.

 

[Angelwolf]

Well. I don't know exactly what may be going on here. You really should contact a vet, and discuss it with them. But a few red flags come to mind when reading your post. First, D3 can actually be harmful to them, if given too often. It should only be offered about once a week. Otherwise, just calcium and vitamin supplements should be used. Second, being so close to a glass door, he could be getting a draft. This could cause another URI. Third, night temps should actually drop about 10 degrees from daytime ambient temps. So if the room is typically about 70, you want the temp to drop to around 60-62. Fourth, If you must use a heat source at night, try a ceramic heat emitter. They don't produce any light, so they don't interrupt the cham's sleep cycle. Believe it or not, they have a "third eye", which is a sensory organ that can detect light, so even if he looks like he's sleeping (eyes closed), he may not be getting proper sleep. Fifth, I also have a guinea pig, so I know how they sometimes behave, jumping and running around the cage. It could be possible (grasping for straws with this one!) that the piggie is stressing him out. He could be lower in the cage, because he thinks he's "hiding" from it because he can't see it.

Have you tried moving him up a little higher in the cage, so maybe he can warm up a little bit, and then maybe that will stimulate him to get moving? What else have you tried? Do you know what he weighs? You would be surprised at how they can hide the fact that they are loosing weight! I just recently discovered this with my cham, and was shocked! Can you post some pictures of his set up, and the room he's in?

I'm sorry if my list is a little overwhelming. You are doing MANY things right, so please don't think I am just pointing out the bad! Looking forward to your reply!

 

[Peachypink]

First I would say he needs to see a vet, and a good one that knows chameleons...

Secondly, there are some things that you do need to change immediately.

1. @Angelwolf is correct. You need to ditch the night light. Chameleons set their internal clock and regulate their hormones by their day/night schedule. It also affects their activity levels during the day. Red, blue, purple light...it doesn't matter, they can detect it and it disrupts that day/night schedule. A temp drop at night is good for them in that it helps with their metabolism. The only reason you would need night heat is if it drops below 55, some even say 50. In that case you would want a ceramic heat bulb that puts off no light at all. This could be a factor is his not eating and behavior change.

2. And she is also correct about your supplement schedule being off. However, not completely correct on the schedule. Here is the schedule most keepers follow....calcium with NO D3 6 days a week, Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin on alternating saturdays(or whatever day you pick to be that 7th day). Meaning you are only giving D3 and a multivitamin twice a month. They can get an overdose of D3 and I am guessing that is part of the issue. I would suggest even not giving him D3 at all for a while, like 3-4 weeks.

3. Fluskers orange cubes are not a good gut load. Cricket crack or bug burger is good as well as adding in a bit of veggies...kale, collards, mustard greens, carrots.

I wouldn't suggest soaking. Other reptiles such as bearded dragons absorb water that way but not chams and it is unnatural and stressful for them. You can put him on a plant in the shower and direct the spray at the wall so it bounces off and hits him in a fine mist for about 20-30 minutes. Also I would suggest adding a few hornworms if you can get them. They have a high moisture content and should loosen him up too. Lay off the mealworms for a bit as well. They are harder to digest.

Both the light at night and the over supplementing affect things on an internal level and won't manifest in a external way for quite a while, since you are seeing these things happening, you will need to make adjustments quickly.

 

[Geckoflora]

Thank you for your replies! I'm not at home but I'll get some pictures of my set up later today.

A few things I should have clarified in my first post:
- the glass door that his cage is beside isn't ever used; it's a sealed door that serves more as a big window in my house. It does get a bit colder at this time of year just because its glass, which is why I pulled the table away from it.
- I'm gutloading using the Flukers high calcium cricket diet, not the orange cubes. The diet I'm feeding is a coarse powder.
- the night heat lamp was just added about four days ago, so it's not the cause of his change in behavior and lack of bowel movements (though I'll be sure to keep it off now at night, thanks for letting me know)

I'll keep the heat off at night for now, temperature will probably reach 65 without any lamps on. I'll also add in some greens to my cricket diet. Is the Flukers high calcium cricket diet fine to feed, or do you still recommend I switch?

For the D3- do you possibly have any links to explain the harmfulness of D3? I've seen a lot of controversy over the use of D3 so I'm interested to get some solid evidence one way or the other! I've mostly kept him on the D3 because I've read other sources that claim that they can't overdose on it, so if it's something bad for him after all I would feel better having some source to look to. For now I'll switch him to a calcium without D3 and see if it helps, though I really would like to read up on anything that might help explain the D3 use better.

I don't think I can readily get hornworms- the only times I ever can find them are at expos, so only every few months, but I'll try.

I have tried to move him under his heat but he doesn't usually stay there long. I usually find him back near the bottom later on. I don't think the guinea pigs disturb him much, as he isn't really trying to hide at all when he sits in his usual spots in the cage. He even seems to be interested in watching them move around sometimes, because he sits up above them with his head angled down. It's possible they are stressing him out, but they've been next to him ever since I got him months ago, and aside from the URI he's never shown any signs of issue.

I haven't weighed him recently but I've been looking into buying a gram scale, so I guess now would be a good time to buy one. I'll see if I can't get one at a store around here.

As of this morning he still hasn't pooped, but I'm hoping he will have by the time I get home today. If not I'll try showering him like you suggested!

Thank you again for your advice, if you have any more suggestions I'm open to them!

 

[guanagator]

90-97 is on the hot side for a panther chameleon, personally I keep my adult males around 87 basking 72 ambient and night drops to mid 60s. At 87 (measured at the branch) they only bask for a few hours in the morning. A long 30+ min shower with lukewarm water per week is always a good idea unless your misting a lot daily. This will help them stay hydrated, clean their eyes, and can stimulate bowel movement.

As mentioned above your supplement schedule needs adjusting and likely is causing issues due to the level of D3. I personally use the repashy super cal 4-5x a week depending on what feeders I am cycling, it has some D3 but in a much smaller concentration than what you have been using and has proven to work well with panther chameleons. It's a lot easier to just have one powder and not worry about using 3 different ones on varying days. Too much D3 is a bad thing and can cause plenty of issues.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/d3-overdose.70630/

Great article on calcium supplementation and D3
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

 

[Peachypink]

Here is one source on supplements that is linked in the resources tab under Food and Nutrition..
http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2012/03/chameleon-physiology-supplements.html

Here is a couple of great Blogs on the subject as well....
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/entry/chameleon-physiology-amp-supplements.573/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/entry/supplements.65/

 

[Peachypink]

I do not like Flukers anything, just my personal opinion. I would still get something different. Do some reading up on a good gut load. Like I said before, Bug Berger or Cricket Crack is good.

If you look at the list of sponsors, we have some great hornworm suppliers. That's how I get mine, they are nowhere in town so I order them. Well, that's not true, Petsmart just started crying them but I'm not paying $4 for one freaking worm.

 

[Geckoflora]

Thank you both so much for the links! I skimmed through some of them but I'll be sure to read them in-depth when I have the time. I'll look into switching my cricket feed to something better for gut loading, and I'll check the hornworm suppliers, though I'm worried about having them shipped often in the cold weather like this.

I know the temps are a little hot but it's been getting colder and the temps are slowly dropping. I only raised them because he wasn't using the basking spots even when it was cooler, and I wanted to make sure the ambient temps were going to be warm enough since he was choosing to sit at the bottom of the cage.

personally use the repashy super cal 4-5x a week

I actually use a Repashy calcium with very low D3 content for my leopard gecko- I think it must be the same thing you're using? I'll take a picture it later on to confirm. Would this be okay to use? I have a lot of that product and only a small amount of calcium without D3, so if it's okay to use the low D3 calcium supplement then I can stick with that one.

The good news is he seems to be basking a little more today and sitting up near the top of his cage! I misted him a few times already and offered him water in the same drip method I used yesterday but he wasn't interested. Bad news is he still hasn't pooped, so I'll try showering him later today to see if it helps. If nothing else it should help keep him well hydrated.

 

[Peachypink]

I personally use the Rapashy Calcium Plus, and it is the only thing I use. The low D version would be fine in my opinion, if that's what you have. I would however use just the plain Calcium for the 3-4 weeks. Let him detox a bit from the heavy D3.

 

[Carlton]

I second the advice already given, but had a couple of comments....

Your cham WILL feel cool to the touch because the temperature of your hand is warmer than he should be. Its not an accurate way to judge whether he's cold. Your body temp is supposed to be 98.6 F (a tad cooler on the hand). Its hard to judge how warm your cham is based on what the room is doing. It will feel cool to you again, because of your body temp. Best to measure the temps right at the basking perch to judge what the basking area should provide for him.

He might have been sitting farther away from your basking light because it was too hot.

 

[Geckoflora]

I'll keep him on the calcium without D3 for the time being then, hopefully it helps. He doesn't seem to exhibit the symptoms of a D3 overdose though (at least he's not having muscle problems), so I'm still hoping that making the little adjustments will help overall.

I know that he won't feel hot- but trust me when I say he's been feeling very cold, colder than he usually is, and until today he wasnt basking much at all. My basking spots were too cold previously- about 80 degrees- with ambient temps around 70, and he still wasn't ever basking at that time. He's finally doing some basking today but because of the cold it's only been about 90 in that spot. I've been measuring the temps every few days as the temperature gets colder outside, so I know it's been just warm enough for him as it is. I don't think he's getting warm enough when he isn't in the basking spot, which is why I think he hasn't had a bowel movement in awhile, unfortunately. It could be related to the D3 though.


For an update: I just tried to give him a shower, and he was not a fan. I don't think he likes even feeling mist. I angled the showerhead towards the back wall so he definitely wasn't being sprayed directly. The other problem is he seems stressed when I put him in and tries to get out, like reaching constantly and trying to grab the shower curtain (and succeeding and trying to climb it for a moment before I stopped him). I want to shower him if it will help but I don't want to cause a lot of stress. Any tips?

Also, should I try mineral oil again, or hold off? He only got a tiny bit yesterday (a cricket partially dipped in it) and I'm not sure what the appropriate amount to give would be, if any at all.

 

[Carlton]

I would not use mineral oil until you have tried the husbandry changes we've suggested. They may make a difference. If you really think he's straining or uncomfortable, a dab of pear baby food on a feeder may help. Its a lot more "natural" than the oil and will taste good.

 

[Geckoflora]

Here are some pictures of Ramses, my set up, and the supplements (I've been using the Miner-All but the Repashy with low D3 should be okay to switch over to after a few weeks of no D3?)

Sorry if the image quality is poor, they were taken on a phone.

 

[Geckoflora]

Alright, I'll hold off on the mineral oil then. I am going to make some adjustments, but I want to make sure he isn't going to get impacted in his digestive tract or anything in the mean time, which is why I'm just looking for ways to hopefully stimulate a bowel movement.

I'll look into the baby food suggestion

 

[Peachypink]

Ok, so what you have is a Calcuim with low D3, it does not have multivitamin in it.

This is what I have, the Calcium Plus includes the multivitamin....

This the the Low D3 version of the All-in-one....

 

[Peachypink]

I can't comment on the Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-all as I have not looked into that one. I have heard they are a good company but I don't know enough about the product to comment on it.

If you are going to use the Calcium low D that you already have then I would also get a multivitamin like herptivie to give 2x a month. Just make sure it doesn't contain any D3 as he will already be getting that from the Rapashy.
OR you can get the Calcium Plus LowD or the Calcium Plus regular and just use the one supplement. With a panther I don't see a need for the lowD version but only after you have given that 4 weeks on Plain Calcium.

 

[guanagator]

He looks good!

 

[Peachypink]

also, are you positive he hasn't pooped in one of the plants and you just haven't seen it?

My suggestion on your set up would be to add a few more horizontal branches at varying heights, give him lots of options of places to be.

Here is mine just for reference...
And this was before my live plants filled in. There are a few branches towards the back that are hidden in the foliage too.

 

[alphakenc]

If u want the cham to poop quicker,u need to put more green vegetables in ur feeder diet,besides that,silkworm will definitely make him poop ,what the cham eats n absorb in their digestive system has alot to do with their diet ,without green wet gutloading,the feeder is just some empty shell,the more natural green u gutload ,the more better ur cham will feel healthy n poop normal...
If human like us has constipation,we will eat green with lots dietary fiber to help our bowel movement,same theory in the chameleon.
Fiber and water is the key to keep everything flow smoothly.

 

[Geckoflora]

I'll definitely look into supplements, thank you for the suggestions! I actually do have a reptile multivitamin (I think it's Nat Geo brand, but not sure) that I usually give to my skinks, I just haven't given it to Ramses before.

I checked through his plants a few times within the last couple days and couldn't find any droppings, unfortunately! I'm keeping an eye on them in case he does happen to poop in them, though. Since my female unfortunately passed away last week, I have a lot of extra vines and some plants that were in her cage, so I'll be adding some of those to his sometime this week to give him more climbing space.

I'll also be sure to give my crickets some greens starting tomorrow! I'll have to order silkworms (and hornworms) too, since they both sound like they'll be good for him. I've been sure to water him a lot and make sure he stays well hydrated for now. I'll be attempting to shower him again tomorrow with a slightly different set up to try and avoid stressing him out too much about it.

Thanks again for everyone's help! If anyone has any recommendations for showering him without stressing him out too much those would be great too! He doesn't even seem to like feeling the mist from the shower and spends his time trying to get out, unfortunately.