Chameleon with no eyes...

[R.H]

Bless his heart, I have a disabled bearded dragon that I have to feed daily , however my girl only needs feeding once a day and that it self is hard work, but because we love her we manage it well!! What ever the out come I believe you will do what u think know is right to do.
If ur going to try and give this baby a life u need to be persistent and make him ur full time job!! Good luck ( I know a bearded dragons is a lot different to a chameleon, I do have one of those too and at one stage I had to force feed as recommended by vet, she's fine and feeding alone now)

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yeah, he may respond to misting but feeding..? I doubt he'll feed since what they see triggers a feeding response..and he can't see.

I'm sorry to say this, but he will suffer and die slowly if you allow him to live. If this had occurred in the wild, nature would have taken care of it via a predator getting to him soon after he hatched.

I say euthanize him quickly via decapitation. I know it's heart breaking but it really is the best thing for him.

That's the trouble, @chamillion , it just isn't really possible to feed him. He is too tiny for you to be force feeding him. You really can't safely force open the mouth of something as fragile as a newly hatched chameleon. It isn't force feeding one time a day, either, you will have to force open its mouth many many times every single day. They don't feed based on smell, so it isn't the same as a sightless mammal that you could bottle feed by stimulating their lips/mouth to suckle or put food in front of them that they could smell it or sense and eat. Just the very way they eat and what triggers a feeding response makes it really just not possible.

There is a term for birth defects like this: Incompatible with life. If this were a larger chameleon that suddenly lost both eyes, you could keep it alive but I believe this baby is much too small to try to do anything with.

I think that if you try to feed this baby you will end up breaking or dislocating its jaw. It really is just too small to treat.

I understand your reluctance to euthanize a baby chameleon. It goes against our nurturing instincts--the big head, big eyes of babies triggers nurturing instincts. We are hardwired to respond that way and chameleon babies trigger those feelings just as human babies do.

I know I was a little glib in my original response on how to go about dispatching him and I'm sorry for that. I do not believe taking him to a vet to euthanize is more humane, in fact I think it is less so. Vets are constrained by their rules on euthanasia and it isn't necessarily more humane, in fact, most times it is less humane. On top of that, it is expensive. I understand that having a vet do it is easier but it is going to cost.

I absolutely understand how you might not be able to do it. I remember hitting a rabbit with my car. I went back and found the poor little bunny gurgling and dying. I knew I had to dispatch this little rabbit. I backed my car up and positioned my front wheel right beside the bunny's head. I was on a steep hill. All I had to do was just put my foot on the clutch and allow the car to roll over the bunny's head. I couldn't. I sat there on that dark country road balling my eyes out, disgusted with myself for not being able to do the right thing. A man drove up to ask if I needed help and offered to do it for me. I left after he promised to dispatch that bunny quickly and humanely. To this day almost 40 years later I am guilt ridden that I was unable to do the right thing.

I suggest you put him in the fridge and chill him--you aren't freezing him, just chilling him so he slows right down. Then either step on him quickly, or put him between two flat hard surfaces and step on that. Do it quickly and make sure you do it thoroughly. You do not want to be timid about this. You can also take a pair of scissors and cut off his head. Just be prepared for death throes that happen which can be quite shocking if you've never experienced them before. (A chicken running around with it's head cut off isn't an urban legend.) I think the most humane way to dispatch an animal is by massive destruction of the brain. There is a debate about how much a reptile brain functions after decapitation due to their slow metabolism.

I understand. This is not what you expected to be faced with when those eggs started to hatch.

 

[Virgil1972]

If you decide to dispatch your animal you can not have any hesitation. I believe that is the number one rule when dispatching an animal, DO NOT hesitate.
I live in Wisconsin and do a lot of trapping and hunting so I know what I am talking about when it comes to dispatch.

 

[JGuinan007]

I cried at the end of "Old Yeller" when I was little, but Travis did the right thing.

 

[chamillion]

News for Arya

In misting times she opens her mouth so today I put some fruit flies to her mouth. She ate them. And you are right @jajeanpierre it is hard to open her mouth except misting. I don't think she will survive but she is worth to try. But if she dies this will be from starving please don't expect me to kill her. And one more thing is there is no reptile vets in my country they even don't know what is chameleon.

 

[jajeanpierre]

News for Arya

In misting times she opens her mouth so today I put some fruit flies to her mouth. She ate them. And you are right @jajeanpierre it is hard to open her mouth except misting. I don't think she will survive but she is worth to try. But if she dies this will be from starving please don't expect me to kill her. And one more thing is there is no reptile vets in my country they even don't know what is chameleon.

It's your time to use as you see fit. Starving to death or dying of dehydration is not the worst death in the world but I cannot imagine that you can possibly keep this baby alive in the long term. I suspect all you are doing is postponing the inevitable. In a hospice situation for humans, when a person is dying and everyone is letting it happen, they withdraw nutrition and fluids and it sometimes takes weeks.

Just be aware, you are making a choice. I doubt this is a choice of if this baby dies, but of when. Doing nothing, or in this case, doing a little that won't be enough in the long run is a choice that will lead to a certain outcome. If this is a female and you manage to keep it alive in the long term, it is likely that you will end up with a very stunted malnourished animal. If it reaches sexual maturity, laying eggs could be a serious issue and dying from being egg bound is a horrible way to die.

I'm not a heartless person. I have my own little quad that hatched with a fused foot and a leg deformity (incubator failed and temps fluctuated). He's perfect except for that one leg but what am I going to do with him? He's taking up a cage that I really need.

I am really interested in how this plays out--and not in a mean "I told you so" way. I am really interested to know if you can do it, how long you will try and if you regret not euthanizing right at the beginning. As I said, it is not the worst death in the world. And wouldn't that be incredible if you succeeded. Please post pictures.

 

[alphakenc]

There will be 2options for this baby cham...
Number 1 ur angel on ur shoulder is telling u to devote yourself to this baby,that means u need to constantly feed him in this stage since without any feeders the baby will not grow.if u got the time n will ,u can do it n once u start do not quit for nothing.
Number 2 ur devil on ur other shoulder is telling u to let the baby die...things lke put the baby in the freezer with no blood involved,wont be any pain cause the heart will stop beating when the temperature drop low,once is over ,its done.
The decision is urs to make and whatever u choose,do not regret.

 

[alphakenc]

It will be pretty time consuming to take care this no eyes baby,especially he is helpless n the chance are very low to raise him and become an adult cham,I can already see lots hard task in the future since he wont be able to hunt by himself,I hate to admit since Im a baby lover,but for this baby cham sake ,it might be the best to let it go to heaven rather then suffer in the reality blind world.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Unfortunately these types of birth defects happen. Here is a thread I posted on it a few years ago: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/birth-defects-graphic-images.70495/ The baby in question from this thread is very similar in formation to a baby Kinyongia tavetana I hatched a few years ago. The chance of it surviving and having a good life, unfortunately, are pretty slim in my opinion.

I don't agree with this.

Dry ice is frozen CO2. A rise in CO2 levels in the blood is what triggers breathing and the feeling of suffocating. A lack of oxygen in the blood does not trigger distress--it is the increase in CO2 levels that causes distress. If you are going to use gas, use carbon monoxide or argon, neither of which causes the respiratory distress that a rise in CO2 levels in the blood does.

Actually this is only true of mammals, not reptiles. In mammals respiration is controlled to maintain blood CO2. Reptiles, on the other hand, control respiration to maintain blood O2 partial pressure. That said, CO2 inhalation is the most common method of euthanasia used on rats and mice in research, and is considered a rapid, painless, stress-free death for them. Reptiles are more difficult though because they can slow their metabolism and breathing so much that this method can take a long time and not be full proof.

There will be 2options for this baby cham...
Number 1 ur angel on ur shoulder is telling u to devote yourself to this baby,that means u need to constantly feed him in this stage since without any feeders the baby will not grow.if u got the time n will ,u can do it n once u start do not quit for nothing.
Number 2 ur devil on ur other shoulder is telling u to let the baby die...things lke put the baby in the freezer with no blood involved,wont be any pain cause the heart will stop beating when the temperature drop low,once is over ,its done.
The decision is urs to make and whatever u choose,do not regret.

Freezing of unanesthetized animals is generally regarded as an unacceptable method or euthanasia. It is believed that the formation of ice crystals on the skin and in the tissues may cause pain and distress. It in general is only recommended as a second step in a 2-step euthanasia method/procedure.

 

[alphakenc]

Unfortunately these types of birth defects happen. Here is a thread I posted on it a few years ago: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/birth-defects-graphic-images.70495/ The baby in question from this thread is very similar in formation to a baby Kinyongia tavetana I hatched a few years ago. The chance of it surviving and having a good life, unfortunately, are pretty slim in my opinion.



Actually this is only true of mammals, not reptiles. In mammals respiration is controlled to maintain blood CO2. Reptiles, on the other hand, control respiration to maintain blood O2 partial pressure. That said, CO2 inhalation is the most common method of euthanasia used on rats and mice in research, and is considered a rapid, painless, stress-free death for them. Reptiles are more difficult though because they can slow their metabolism and breathing so much that this method can take a long time and not be full proof.



Freezing of unanesthetized animals is generally regarded as an unacceptable method or euthanasia. It is believed that the formation of ice crystals on the skin and in the tissues may cause pain and distress. It in general is only recommended as a second step in a 2-step euthanasia method/procedure.

That is great to know,what is the first step,since alphakenc I never kill a baby chameleon before and I dont mind to learn the full process.

 

[Alex21]

wow thats sad, poor little fella. I wouldnt know what to do either

 

[Chris Anderson]

That is great to know,what is the first step,since alphakenc I never kill a baby chameleon before and I dont mind to learn the full process.

First step is some form of premedication or anesthesia, such as isoflurane. This effectively puts the animal under anesthesia so they are unconscious and do not feel pain, just like when we go in for surgery. The second step then terminates vital function, but because it is under anesthesia, there is no pain in the process.

Chris

 

[alphakenc]

First step is some form of premedication or anesthesia, such as isoflurane. This effectively puts the animal under anesthesia so they are unconscious and do not feel pain, just like when we go in for surgery. The second step then terminates vital function, but because it is under anesthesia, there is no pain in the process.

Chris

Ok thank you......now everyone can learn n understand the FULL process ,unlike I suggested only in half way.

 

[jajeanpierre]

First step is some form of premedication or anesthesia, such as isoflurane. This effectively puts the animal under anesthesia so they are unconscious and do not feel pain, just like when we go in for surgery. The second step then terminates vital function, but because it is under anesthesia, there is no pain in the process.

Chris

Chris, I don't think many people have isoflurane in their medicine cabinet.

Can you point me in the right direction to research respiration triggers in reptiles (and birds, for that matter)?

I know they use CO2 for rats and mice but I think it is cruel. They are trying to introduce gassing chickens at commercial slaughter since chicken slaughter is really really horrible and cruel. They have used two gases, CO2 and argon (maybe an argon/nitrogen mix). The argon simply replaces the oxygen in the blood, which my understanding means they simply lose consciousness with no distress.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris, I don't think many people have isoflurane in their medicine cabinet.

Can you point me in the right direction to research respiration triggers in reptiles (and birds, for that matter)?

I know they use CO2 for rats and mice but I think it is cruel. They are trying to introduce gassing chickens at commercial slaughter since chicken slaughter is really really horrible and cruel. They have used two gases, CO2 and argon (maybe an argon/nitrogen mix). The argon simply replaces the oxygen in the blood, which my understanding means they simply lose consciousness with no distress.

Yeah, one of the benefits of working in a physiology lab where we work with herps, including performing surgeries, is having access to a lot of that stuff.

For more info on reptile respiration, I'd recommending checking out:
Wood, S.C. & Lenient, C.J. (1976). Respiration: mechanics, control and gas exchange. In Biology of the reptilia, vol 5, (ed. Gans, C.,S, Academic Press).

Also:
Murray, M.J. (2006). Section III. Anatomy, Physiology, and Behavior. 10. Cardiopulmonary Anatomy and Physiology. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery (ed. Mader, D. R., Elsevier Inc.).

Chris

 

[Bush baby]

You are attributing human emotions onto an animal, which, in this instance is cruel. Like i mentioned before, if this defect had occurred in the wild, nature would have taken care of it within a few hours - days via a predator getting to this little guy. Keeping it alive is cruel. Chameleons are deaf, and now this one is blind. Imagine trying to walk around with ear plugs in your ears, along with wearing a blind fold. That's what this cham is going through, 24/7. It probably has no sense of night and day, etc....it's suffering. I employ you, do the right thing and make the tough decision. Take your own feelings out of the equation because this animal is suffering; your emotions pale in comparison to what this animal is going through.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

I doubt he'll feed since what they see triggers a feeding response..and he can't see.

Yea, so there is no way for it to know where to shoot its tongue to get the food.....

Chameleons are deaf, and now this one is blind. Imagine trying to walk around with ear plugs in your ears, along with wearing a blind fold. That's what this cham is going through, 24/7. It probably has no sense of night and day, etc....it's suffering. I employ you, do the right thing and make the tough decision. Take your own feelings out of the equation because this animal is suffering; your emotions pale in comparison to what this animal is going through.

Would most definitely suck to be blind AND deaf. That would make for very very hard living. There is no telling where food or water is. No telling where branches are unless you go REALLY REALLY slow to find them. And there is no telling when the light is on or off, so it won't know when to sleep and when to be awake. It will have a hard time finding UVB and basking lights as well if it cannot see to know where those lights are.....

But if she dies this will be from starving please don't expect me to kill her.

I totally understand how hard this must be. Unfortunately, it's part of the circle of life and not everything is perfect.

It is really simple. You take a pair of scissors and you cut its head off. If it is big, you use garden shears. Or, you put it on the ground and you step on it and make sure you really destroy it's little brain. You could do a cervical dislocation, but that requires a bit of skill and you can't be meek when you are killing animals. If you tried a cervical dislocation you would likely remove the head. I did a lot of research into slaughter and squishing its tiny little brain really quickly is the most humane method, much more humane than taking it to a vet who is constrained by the appearance of humaneness.

OH MY GOSH THAT SOUNDS HORRIBLE! Although I can understand your reasoning that crushing the brain is the quickest way, I personally don't know if I would be able to do that myself. Squishing a little baby chameleon, or ANY chameleon, or ANY animal I love for that matter..... it would be very very hard for me to do. And I would feel very bad about it for a long long time.....

I absolutely understand how you might not be able to do it. I remember hitting a rabbit with my car. I went back and found the poor little bunny gurgling and dying. I knew I had to dispatch this little rabbit. I backed my car up and positioned my front wheel right beside the bunny's head. I was on a steep hill. All I had to do was just put my foot on the clutch and allow the car to roll over the bunny's head. I couldn't. I sat there on that dark country road balling my eyes out, disgusted with myself for not being able to do the right thing. A man drove up to ask if I needed help and offered to do it for me. I left after he promised to dispatch that bunny quickly and humanely. To this day almost 40 years later I am guilt ridden that I was unable to do the right thing.

It will be okay. I'm sure the friendly stranger finished the task for you. It can be very difficult to end a life, even if you know it's the right thing to do.

You can also take a pair of scissors and cut off his head. Just be prepared for death throes that happen which can be quite shocking if you've never experienced them before. (A chicken running around with it's head cut off isn't an urban legend.)

I can attest to this. I have owned chickens and seen this first hand.


To whatever you decide, best of luck to you.

 

[jajeanpierre]

OH MY GOSH THAT SOUNDS HORRIBLE! Although I can understand your reasoning that crushing the brain is the quickest way, I personally don't know if I would be able to do that myself. Squishing a little baby chameleon, or ANY chameleon, or ANY animal I love for that matter..... it would be very very hard for me to do. And I would feel very bad about it for a long long time.....

Yes it sounds horrible, but is it?

The absolutely quickest, kindest way to kill anything is massive destruction of the brain. Death is a process and not a moment in time. Massive destruction to the brain will stop the consciousness of the animal faster than the thought of what is happening to it (pain, etc.) can travel through the brain, so they are rendered completely brain dead before they even know it.

I know. It's not pretty, but you are talking about something that weighs about a gram. That's the size of many bugs that people are quite comfortable squishing on the ground or feeding to their chameleon.

Culling has always been a part of breeding and in this case, I cannot understand the dilemma the breeder is facing. I can understand the breeder not being able to actually do it him/herself, but there are many people this person knows who have no qualms about killing animals and who are not mass murderers in the making--hunters for example. So, not being able to do it themselves--as I couldn't with the mortally wounded bunny--does not mean that it can't be done. This isn't a baby that is sick that you are hoping will be able to fight off the disease. This is a doomed baby and it is just the question of when.

 

[trickedoutbiker]

Yes it sounds horrible, but is it?

As sad as it may seem, you are correct in that it's humane though.....

but there are many people this person knows who have no qualms about killing animals and who are not mass murderers in the making--hunters for example.

I can go deer hunting (haven't in a while though) and that doesn't bug me. It's food, and you have to eat to survive. Unless you're vegan, which I'm not, that means killing animals for meat. So I either gotta do it or someone else has to do it for me. That's where a supermarket comes in handy, so you can go purchase what others have already done for you. Deer jerky is super yummy..... and I've never seen it in a store...... and nobody is gonna hunt a deer FOR me..... I guess that's why I'm okay with hunting it myself. (Boy do I hate that Hunter Fever shaking crap though!) Now, if it was a little Bambi that I found in my yard when it was young and raised it to adult and had to put it down for some reason, it might be a different story...

This is a doomed baby and it is just the question of when.

I'm afraid you are probably right. The work it would take to make it work would require a miracle. Some things in this world are just for the best. I've never had to put down an animal myself - watched a very very old and sickly cat which was beyond recovery get put down once - but never had to actually do it myself. So I can't really relate. I have killed deer, and squished bugs, and I also shot a raccoon once that was hissing at my mom and chased her..... but as far as pets... that's a new territory for me.

My deepest prayers and sympathy goes out to chamillion. Keep us all posted on what happens please.

 

[Feathered]

Awe so tragic I met a lady once with a snake who looked like a pool of melted green crayons. He was a rescue to saved from a cull. He was born without a proper skeleton. The breeder figured he could never feed properly. He was 10 years old when i met him and he was one of the coolest snakes I ever saw. Granted, not every creature can have such a miraculous story. No matter how it turns out I wish you both the best of luck!