Chameleon Mortality in First Year after Acquisition

[gotwqqd]

Mortality rate in the wild would be very high due to predation. In general, nothing dies in the wild, it gets eaten.

I've read that in some places, the total population of chameleons die during the dry season to be replaced by the eggs that are waiting to hatch.

They are not a delicate group of species (there are no "breeds" of chameleons, only species and sub species). They are tough as nails in the wild. It is when we take them out of their natural habitat that we run into problems.

Where are these studies? Who is to say that gout does not occur almost always in the wild being the leading cause of death? Though it actually comes in the form of starvation, falling or predation!

You are looking at a small window through that study without relational aspects to the wild, while eager to compare to other animals where no link should be. Give me a study that shows captivity raring to life expectancy in the wild.

Would it have been okay to add mammals and insects pets to the study? No.
And while a snake is a reptile it had no place in some of the conclusions you are making.

 

[jannb]

Mortality rate in the wild would be very high due to predation. In general, nothing dies in the wild, it gets eaten.

I've read that in some places, the total population of chameleons die during the dry season to be replaced by the eggs that are waiting to hatch.

They are not a delicate group of species (there are no "breeds" of chameleons, only species and sub species). They are tough as nails in the wild. It is when we take them out of their natural habitat that we run into problems.

They looked very fragile and delicate in the wild to me. I believe some species in a well cared for captive home are much hardier and live longer than the ones in the wild.

 

[gotwqqd]

They looked very fragile and delicate in the wild to me. I believe some species in a well cared for captive home are much hardier and live longer than the ones in the wild.

I agree. In Madagascar the animal variety is very small and isolated. Giving a species like this an easy time grabbing hold and evolving. Same could be said for Yemen.... Small forest surrounded by harsh desert creates an isolated environment with fewer predators.

 

[jannb]

I agree. In Madagascar the animal variety is very small and isolated. Giving a species like this an easy time grabbing hold and evolving. Same could be said for Yemen.... Small forest surrounded by harsh desert creates an isolated environment with fewer predators.

So far I have only been to Nosy Be once and to South Africa once and I'm just expressing what I saw. Others on here have been many times and studied chameleons in the wild.

 

[Lathis]

I hear what you are saying @gotwqqd, but I think your point (which is valid) was outside the scope of this particular study. I think that the focus of this study was a comparative one between reptile species, not necessarily comparing lifespans in captivity versus in the wild. That would be a very different study. We here on CF know (or can at least make a strong circumstantial relationship based on a depth of anecdotal evidence) many of the "whys" behind the higher chameleon mortality rate - higher percentage of wild caught animals, poor care in pet stores, poor husbandry advice, lack of experienced vets, sensitivity of some species, etc. In my mind, the important aspect of this study to walk away with is not the hard numbers or potential issues with sampling, but the overall pattern. The overall pattern establishes a very clear issue with chameleons in the pet trade.

I don't have any big solutions to the problem. I wish I did. The best I can do is try to share what knowledge I have and keep learning always.

 

[gotwqqd]

I hear what you are saying @gotwqqd, but I think your point (which is valid) was outside the scope of this particular study. I think that the focus of this study was a comparative one between reptile species, not necessarily comparing lifespans in captivity versus in the wild. That would be a very different study. We here on CF know (or can at least make a strong circumstantial relationship based on a depth of anecdotal evidence) many of the "whys" behind the higher chameleon mortality rate - higher percentage of wild caught animals, poor care in pet stores, poor husbandry advice, lack of experienced vets, sensitivity of some species, etc. In my mind, the important aspect of this study to walk away with is not the hard numbers or potential issues with sampling, but the overall pattern. The overall pattern establishes a very clear issue with chameleons in the pet trade.

I don't have any big solutions to the problem. I wish I did. The best I can do is try to share what knowledge I have and keep learning always.

How about this..
Compare the lifespan of those reptiles. Is it okay now to draw the conclusion that those owners off chameleons that don't live to 40 years are doing something wrong? Because the average is biased by tortoises that live 120 years?

I realize this is a bit of hyperbole but the point still stands.
The posted article even cites the poor survival rates of some species.

A more appropriate study would compare ONLY chameleon owners/raisers/breeders. And compare the statistics to how long they have been doing it. First time owners to seasoned veterans.

 

[Kingkush]

im putting up 10k to make a complete care application any other suggestions to actually impact..

 

[jajeanpierre]

I agree. In Madagascar the animal variety is very small and isolated. Giving a species like this an easy time grabbing hold and evolving. Same could be said for Yemen.... Small forest surrounded by harsh desert creates an isolated environment with fewer predators.

What??? Where there is life there are predators, even in Yemen. Remove predators and you have an imbalance.

 

[jajeanpierre]

How about this..
Compare the lifespan of those reptiles. Is it okay now to draw the conclusion that those owners off chameleons that don't live to 40 years are doing something wrong? Because the average is biased by tortoises that live 120 years?

I realize this is a bit of hyperbole but the point still stands.
The posted article even cites the poor survival rates of some species.

A more appropriate study would compare ONLY chameleon owners/raisers/breeders. And compare the statistics to how long they have been doing it. First time owners to seasoned veterans.

Really, the study is extremely appropriate and much more appropriate than your proposed study of only chameleons. That 28% mortality rate of chameleons in the first year of ownership would be lost in your study. You would not realize that other reptiles don't die at such an alarming rate. Don't those numbers concern you?

 

[Kingkush]

What??? Where there is life there are predators, even in Yemen. Remove predators and you have an imbalance.

i dont think that it what the poster was meaning he was simply talking about the environment in yemen..no one said anything about removing predators..its simply making the point that a forest surrounded by desert most likey has less forest predators to the chameleons..than a forest surrounded by forest. If i undertand correctly.

 

[Trace]

If we can’t even agree that a lot of chameleons die in captivity unnecessarily, how are we to improve things?

Look at some of the recent import numbers. 250 live Furcifer campani were exported from Madagascar in both 2014 and 2015. Out of all of those animals, only a very small handful of offspring have resulted from captive breeding. I can count the amount of captive babies being born from those 500 animals on both hands and have fingers left over. What about the thousands upon thousands of species like the Senegals and Flapnecks? The amounts of captive offspring from those are even more deplorable. There is no incentive to try and produce true captive specimens when a wild caught can be bought at a show for 20 bucks. Only true, involved hobbyists will buy an expensive CBB dilepis because they know the trouble that went into the breeding them and the costs to raise them not some dude that buys one because it’s a cool lizard that changes colours.

Our mentality about chameleons has to change. Too many people aspire to having the rarest and the coolest when, save for Panther and Veileds, all are pretty much rare in captivity.

 

[gotwqqd]

Really, the study is extremely appropriate and much more appropriate than your proposed study of only chameleons. That 28% mortality rate of chameleons in the first year of ownership would be lost in your study. You would not realize that other reptiles don't die at such an alarming rate. Don't those numbers concern you?

You have zero idea about how studies should be done and how/why to remove misleading data and the erroneous conclusions based on them.
I think you are blinded by your passion for chameleons and possibly all animals.
The conclusions are not scientifically based at all.

Take your last comment about the mortality rate. What if it was found that the majority of the polled in the study were seasoned veterans in raising chameleons and you further found out that the death rate in the wild for chameleons that lived past 3 months was 60% before they got to 15 months old? What are your conclusions then?
If you still think that mortality rates in the wild don't matter it's pointless to try to enlighten you why it is.

 

[JaxyGirl]

If we can’t even agree that a lot of chameleons die in captivity unnecessarily, how are we to improve things?

Look at some of the recent import numbers. 250 live Furcifer campani were exported from Madagascar in both 2014 and 2015. Out of all of those animals, only a very small handful of offspring have resulted from captive breeding. I can count the amount of captive babies being born from those 500 animals on both hands and have fingers left over. What about the thousands upon thousands of species like the Senegals and Flapnecks? The amounts of captive offspring from those are even more deplorable. There is no incentive to try and produce true captive specimens when a wild caught can be bought at a show for 20 bucks. Only true, involved hobbyists will buy an expensive CBB dilepis because they know the trouble that went into the breeding them and the costs to raise them not some dude that buys one because it’s a cool lizard that changes colours.

Our mentality about chameleons has to change. Too many people aspire to having the rarest and the coolest when, save for Panther and Veileds, all are pretty much rare in captivity.

I absolutely agree that too many chams die in captivity. In reality keeping chameleons is a relitively new industry. When I got my first Jackson's Cham, chams weren't even allowed in the state of Maine.
(Yup I owned one illegally ) I think they have only been allowed in this state for maybe 4-5 years? At the time there wasn't really any information about chameleon husbandry.

Now chams are in pretty much every pet store I go in being sold by novice employees that send buyers home with all kinds of supplies that are not correct for the raising of a chameleon. Unfortunately chams being relatively new in pet stores there still isn't as much knowledge about them as there should be. If you think about it Turtles, iguanas, and snakes have been sold in pet stores for a long time so there is a fair amount known about their diets in captivity etc. chances are if you bring one of those in to see a vet they would absolutely have been educated in Vet school about these animals and know how to treat them. There are Text Books written just for the care and husbandry of various Reptiles but not much out there for chameleons. I know this for a fact because my father is a veterinarian and he had never even seen a captive chameleon in person before I owned one but he has successfully treated his share of other lizards, turtles and snakes etc. Chameleons are a completely different then any other reptile. A lot of vets that don't specialize in chameleons have never seen one nor do they know how to treat them and it makes it hard to locate a veterinarian that does.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there has been an explosion of chameleons out there in the market but the information for caring for them just hasn't kept up with the demand.

I think for the most part new Chamelion owners have the best intention to take care of their cute new baby Chamelion but they haven't been correctly informed or taught by the pet store they bought it from. Most people don't know there is such thing as a reptile breeder or that there are better places to buy a chameleon. Unfortunately, The Pet store is their first and last stop. On top of that they are being sold equipment that would be great for a bearded dragon or iguana. People look to pet store sales associates to be the experts. Unfortunately for the most part that's not the buyers fault for listening to them. Even now if you search the Internet there isn't a lot of true information about there about the care of Chameleons and a lot of it is very contradictory. Then on top of that care varies from species to species. Chameleons in my opinion are hands down the most complicated reptiles that I have ever kept.

In my opinion a lot of these Chamelion deaths start at the pet store.
So many variables exist regarding the health of a chameleon at the pet store. Were they hurt while shipping to the pet store. Were they fed the correct food. Were they in the correct habitat. Were they healthy to begin with.
Chances are the answer to thes questions is unknown and then they were sold to an unknowlegable person buy an unknowlegable sales rep. With equipment that isn't appropriate for a chameleon.

How do we educate buyers and pet stores so these practices stop??

 

[kinyonga]

This is older but you might find itinteresting anyway...
http://www.pondturtle.com/lliza.html

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have zero idea about how studies should be done and how/why to remove misleading data and the erroneous conclusions based on them.
I think you are blinded by your passion for chameleons and possibly all animals.
The conclusions are not scientifically based at all.

Take your last comment about the mortality rate. What if it was found that the majority of the polled in the study were seasoned veterans in raising chameleons and you further found out that the death rate in the wild for chameleons that lived past 3 months was 60% before they got to 15 months old? What are your conclusions then?
If you still think that mortality rates in the wild don't matter it's pointless to try to enlighten you why it is.

You are completely missing the objective of the study (emphasis mine):

"We investigated mortality rates of pet reptiles amongst domestic reptile keepers at two major herpetological events in the UK, using both direct questions (DQ) and additive RRT (aRRT). Specifically, we addressed the following questions: (1) What proportion of reptiles die within one year of acquisition? (2) Which commonly kept reptile groups are most susceptible to dying within one year of acquisition? (3) Are captive bred or wild caught reptiles more likely to die within one year of acquisition? The findings are intended to inform the ongoing debate concerning the regulation of the reptile trade and help safeguard species threatened by international commerce."

Life expectancy in the wild was not a part of that study.

Mortality rate in the wild is something else entirely. The two leading causes of mortality in the wild are predation and scarcity of resources, neither of which apply to a reptile in captivity. If, in your extreme example, gout were a problem with chameleons in the wild you would find cases of gout on import which is not the case. By introducing mortality/life expectancy in the wild, you muddy the waters.

The study's purpose was to quantify the mortality rate of pet reptiles in their first year after purchase. The study was conducted at two large reptile shows, which would suggest that those answering the questionnaires were a little more knowledgeable about reptiles than the person walking into a PetSmart or PetCo looking for kitty litter and walking out with a chameleon.

The disparity between the mortality rates of chameleons and any other reptile is chilling. That's the take away message from that study and I am sorry if you can't see that.

 

[wodesorel]

If you think about it Turtles, iguanas, and snakes have been sold in pet stores for a long time so there is a fair amount known about their diets in captivity etc. chances are if you bring one of those in to see a vet they would absolutely have been educated in Vet school about these animals and know how to treat them.

But the pet stores can't or won't tell you the proper care information for any of these. They won't even tell someone their little 2 inch goldfish is going to hit a foot long and need an actual pond. They certainly don't tell people that little iguana is going to hit 4 feet and need a room to itself in a few years. I'm sure it's a combination of greed and ignorance - the store makes money, and that's all that matters.

The problems come when regular caring people use the pet store as the end all, be all of knowledge because they don't know any better. Especially those who don't have disposable income or who were never taught to call the vets when there's a problem. I just rescued a trio of leopard geckos - all male, housed together, over 100 degrees in the tank - and they had severe MBD and were starving to death. Two died within days of coming into my care and there was nothing that could be done, the one was an absolute stick. The owner had them up for sale for $50 because they didn't want them anymore. I started talking with her and explained what MBD was, and she replied that she took them to the local chain store a month ago (where they had originally bought them a year ago) because she was worried they were thin and looked funny. The person working there sold her Reptivite to use once a week and told her they were fine. They had three layers of stuck shed and there is no way they got that skinny (one was 15 grams) in just a month. The person - probably a kid - never thought to say, "hey lady, they're sick, take them to a vet, I just sell animals". The store had also never mentioned that crickets had to be dusted with calcium at any point in time, so they had gone 12 months without a drop. When she learned what was really happening she was absolutely horrified and gave them to me. It wasn't that she didn't care or was doing it on purpose - it was because she never knew that the pet store wasn't telling her the truth.

My Jane was mistreated and ended up with mild MBD (and probably would have died in a couple more weeks in her care from dehydration) because the woman who purchased her never bothered to pick up a book or google anything on the internet. She did exactly what the person at the expo told her to do, and never questioned it because that person breeds/sells reptiles so they must know everything about them.

This is why chameleons and so many other species die after getting home.

 

[JaxyGirl]

I absolutely agree that many people bought the Chamelion from a dealer, pet store or where ever don't know how to care for them because of bad advice. That shouldn't be an excuse. If an animal is neglected that is considered abuse.
If a person is abusing and neglecting their dog or cat that is a felony and they can be fined or prosecuted or both for that. Why are these laws not enforced for reptiles or amphibians?

For instance here is the law defined in the state of Alabama. I just picked this state because this link regarding animal cruelty laws are in alphabetical order.

"The act of cruelty to animals, particularly domesticated dogs and cats, is defined as: “Overloads, overdrives, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, unnecessarily or cruelly beats, injures, mutilates or causes the same to be done; intentionally tortures any dog or cat or skins a domestic dog or cat or offers for sale or exchange or offers to buy to exchange the fur, hide, or pelt of a domestic dog or cat.” Cruelty to a dog or cat is a Class A Misdemeanor, punishable with a ne of up to $1,000 and/or imprisonment up to 6 months. Intentionally torturing a dog or cat is a Class C Felony punishable with a ne of up to $5,000 and/or imprisonment up to 10 years. Person convicted could also be made to pay for the cost of care of the animal. Exceptions are made for research, protection of life or property, training, or shooting a dog or cat for urinating or defecating on property. Animals can also be seized by animal control officers. "

Here is a link to animal cruelty laws that apply to everybody's state.
http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/PDF/AnimalCrueltyLaws.pdf

 

[Cheeky]

The reason is that people know how to tell if their cat or dog is not well. Many new cham owners completely fail to recognize there is anything wrong with them.

Part of the high mortality rate is probably as chams are very good at hiding their health problems, if they limped around whimpering they would probably get taken to a vet more often. On top of this they are a fragile species with specific requirements.

If you are given the wrong husbandry instructions from a recognized "expert" and as far as you can tell the animal is fine.....its unlikely to end well.

As the for the whole discussion on the validity of the study, its fairly clear that this is a very limited survey and has plenty of limitations in the methods used for data collection and analysis. While I strongly agree that further work would need to be done to decide whether 28% or 33% of chams die in the first year, it is kind of irrelevant. The overall trend from the study is that the figures for chams completely stand out from other reptiles.

This highlights a large opportunity to educate owners and reduce first year death rates.

 

[Carlton]

I agree. In Madagascar the animal variety is very small and isolated. Giving a species like this an easy time grabbing hold and evolving. Same could be said for Yemen.... Small forest surrounded by harsh desert creates an isolated environment with fewer predators.

Actually, Madagascar is a "hotspot" for natural diversity. For an isolated land mass that size the variety is immense. Maybe what you meant was that populations of the island's many species are small and the increasing habitat loss ends up isolating them further.

 

[MissLissa]

@gotwqqd: it sounds that you do not think that there is a problem in the chameleon community with improper care, health issues, etc. Is that true? If so, I would like to exchange my experiences for yours: I've seen too many very sad cases to personally believe this is true.

You have zero idea about how studies should be done and how/why to remove misleading data and the erroneous conclusions based on them.
I think you are blinded by your passion for chameleons and possibly all animals.
The conclusions are not scientifically based at all.

Wanna talk science? Talk science with me. I literally work in the reptile scientific field. I rely on scientific herpetocultural studies for a living. That being said...

The study is valid. I'm not saying that it's without bias, representational issues, sample size problems, etc, but it is still valid if taken as a piece of the whole picture. An entire study or review of studies is not invalidated just because of a few issues with it's methodology: if that were so, almost no studies would ever be taken as evidence for anything. You just take the study and filter the information through the issues you fond therein.

I found this study interesting as something that supports a hypothesis on chameleon average longevity in captivity, and not as an entire and whole truth. Just like any other study. No one piece of evidence should be taken in the exclusion of all others, but all pieces have their place as well. In honesty, it backs up my own anecdotal experiences which certainly doesn't hurt, though that is really neither here nor there.

Comparing captive lifespans to wild lifespans is a difficult proposition, as accurately determining wild lifespans is pretty close to impossible in most cases. Best guesses usually give us a idea of what we are dealing with. Some anecdotal reports show that some species of chameleons all but disappear yearly, and rely on the eggs they laid to repopulate the species. Should this be good enough for our captive chameleons? Are we happy with keeping to the wild lifespan, without going for more? Let me take off my science hat for a second and I would say no; that if we are arrogant enough to remove a wild creature from the wild and keep it for no other reason than our own pleasure and gratification, then it's our duty to ensure that their lives are in some way "better" (an objective concept, to be sure) than whatever they would have had previously.

A feral cat's average lifespan is only 1 year. Should then we expect our indoor pampered cats to keel over dead at 12 months of age? No, obviously not. The average "wild" lifespan is important information, absolutely, but captive life takes away much of the uncertainty of lifespan-determining factors: resource scarcity, predation, intraspecifc competition, etc. In captivity, damage to one eye may not be an insurmountable problem for a chameleon; but in the wild it almost certainly would be. And yet, even with all this, there still seems to be a real issue with chameleon long-term survivability in captivity. I think the real issue I take with this study, beyond the obvious problems of self-reported studies, is the lack of information on cause of death. Anecdotally I have my own opinions about why the short lifespans of chameleons should be (owner ignorance, lack of funds, etc) but i would be interested in seeing a follow-up study.

This study is not all-encompassing nor is it without fault, but it is still a valuable resource and one piece of information in an important puzzle.

Take your last comment about the mortality rate. What if it was found that the majority of the polled in the study were seasoned veterans in raising chameleons and you further found out that the death rate in the wild for chameleons that lived past 3 months was 60% before they got to 15 months old? What are your conclusions then?

"What If" arguments are just hypotheses contrary to the facts:
"What if every singe one of the survey participants had never owned a chameleon before and kept them with their leopard geckos?"
"What if chameleons only want to live one year?"
"What if we were all space monsters on the planet XQ48J and wore our pet chameleons like a hat?"

Heh. Don't complain about someone else's scientific acumen if you're going to use logistical fallacies yourself to try and make them feel small. Additionally, science should never be the end-all/be-all. That paves a very dangerous path. Ethics and the human-animal connection are vital factors in both human and captive animal lives, and shoving that aside in favour of "pure science" is a grave mistake... and there is science to back that up if you happen to peruse veterinary journals