Chameleon Mortality in First Year after Acquisition

Alphakenc, I liked your quotes..I found them very inspirational :)
As for the keeping and caring of animals I absolutely agree with everybody that they are like family. And it is our responsibility to take the best care possible of that animal for the duration of its life until it passes from old age not sickness, neglect or abuse. Animals are to be respected and are a living creatures and should be treated accordingly. A captive animal is helpless in our hands. If we don't feed them they can't get out of their cage and go hunt for themselves so they don't eat and all they can do is sit there hungry until we do feed them. They can't tell us what the best diet is for them and I'm sure if they could it wouldn't be just crickets and mealworms every day for the rest of their lives. They can't tell us that they're uncomfortable in a dirty cage or feel dehydrated and need more water. It's up to us as a responsible owner and care giver to provide it to them and if they don't get the best possible care they will die. But, they can't tell us if they're feeling sick so it's up to us to notice if their mouth hurts from a sore or their stomach is upset and they don't feel like eating etc.

My father is a veterinarian and I was taught at a very young age to respect all living creatures and if I wasn't going to care for my animals properly I would not have one. I understand that a lot of people did not grow up with any animals in their homes or maybe didn't have a large variety etc. and don't have a lot of experience with them. Chameleons are amazing creatures and I understand why someone would love to own one.

What I can't understand is people that don't do ther research before they get one and why they won't take advice from people that have owned chameleons that have lived long healthy lives??? And what frustrates me the most is the bad attitudes, rudeness and name calling that has been going on in the forums lately. This is not a place for swearing and pointing fingers!!! Why is this even being tolerated??? Some people should have been banned a long time ago and I can honestly say that I'm tired of coming on here and seeing the same people stiring everybody up over and over again!!
There is a lot of great information that gets lost due to the snipping and sniping on here! It should be a safe place where people can gain knowledge and share ideas about their chameleon It makes me reluctant to post on here anymore:( just my two sense

Sorry Jajeanpierre, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Your research is amazing and it really sheds some light on chameleon longevity and care.

The forums would be a great place to get real life statistic about how many Chameleons die in the first year. We just need to go back and count. Sad but true.

Hopefully, since this is a New Year we can all help Change the mortality rate of chameleons through patience, understanding and knowledge :)
 
JaxyGirl said:
And what frustrates me the most is the bad attitudes, rudeness and name calling that has been going on in the forums lately. This is not a place for swearing and pointing fingers!!! Why is this even being tolerated??? Some people should have been banned a long time ago and I can honestly say that I'm tired of coming on here and seeing the same people stiring everybody up over and over again!!
Click to expand...

Please, if you are seeing rude or aggressive behaviour on the forums, please report the post. The “Report” button is located under each and every post so it is easy to find. We moderators do try and catch everything but sometimes things do get through our fingers. The entire staff here is strictly volunteer and we all have jobs, families and chameleon collections outside of this realm.

In defense of Chameleon Forums however, this is one of the more friendly forums about reptiles that I have been on. Ever. And I’ve been around the hobby a loooong while. Unfortunately trolls exist and they can rankle an otherwise friendly group so please don’t judge an entire forum based on one instance or person.
 
gotwqqd said:
I'm glad I'll be going on two months of research and have yet to have purchased the animal.
Click to expand...

Well said. I did about 6 months of research before actully getting a chameleon. I had wanted one for at least 10 years. I agree that many new owners take responses to their questions personally. Some of it has to do with money spent on wrong or not best suited supplies. If only people included this forum during their research. The care pages helped me out greatly.
 
Trace said, so please don’t judge an entire forum based on one instance or person.

Sorry Trace, I understand that all of the moderators have other lives so it wasn't meant as a criticism toward you or the other moderators. You all do a great job!!
I was talking about "some people" not the entire forum. I think I've been a member here since 2010 and I feel the dynamics have changed a little and some people seem to have a habit of being disrespectful and downright nasty to those who try to help them. In my opinion that shouldn't be allowed. I rarely express strong opinions on here and pretty much keep my mouth shut. But I agree that maybe more members should report them when things get out of hand.
 
jajeanpierre said:
If you read the section "Methods" and "Results" at the beginning of the paper, they explain where their data came from and how it was collected.

With regards to your second point, it is definitely in the best interests of the fancy if the people who really know what they are talking about respond even when they are met with resistance. The experienced person might not be able to affect a change in the resistant person directly, but they will reach a lot of other people who are reading but not posting. That said, I do understand the frustration of going to the trouble to try to help someone only to be met with abuse.
Click to expand...

I read the whole article twice, I would think this not the venue to take it apart. I will say that I see gaps and don't think for two seconds it should be taken as a complete picture or as the gospel as some would say. There is a fair bit of extrapolation going on. Anyway I'm going back to my cave. You all do what you what you want.
 
I think this is the perfect venue to disect any perceived issues with the report. I'm not good with formal statistics and data extrapolation. I'd love someone to pick that aspect apart and give their opinion.

OCK, did you read the response under the comments tab? The writer there raised some good questions regarding the survey and the sampling. It is a very small data set and self reporting is notoriously unreliable.

I believe there is a copy of the survey included. I haven't looked at that yet.
 
Actually i read this report a few days ago found it off the iucn site.or kent university.but i dont really agree with the method for gathering data..i even suggested my idea software to one of the authors yesterday.. as im working on as solution..it dawned on me as much budget as these people spend from grants and so forth that no one has thought of simple providing a free species software with guidlines for care if they are in captivity. This makes sense if they are actually trying to protect and educate they can distribute the free software at petco for all i care.

With care guidlines link to articles.and somwhere in the software it has a questionares profiles about the animal in captivity.and some tools to make to make it useful. Some may not fill it out some may but regardless it will be more accurate data than a blind test beacsue people dont want to admit the animal died.its still blind an anonymous.most people do not want thier animal to die and if thought the data of the hows and whys could help the bigger picture would provide it. That would have a greater impact and educate people possibly save animals lives. So im doing something myself for old world chameleons a care software.animal and health management sofware to help the animals it will be free on my own dime the development.i dont need grants studies paper pushing im getting it done to save animals and make impact no reports needed..back to my cave
 
I think a comparison of mortality rates and the cause of death need to be compared to those in the wild.
It's not sensible to compare death rate to a python without knowing both of the species death rates I nature AND the cause.
 
gotwqqd said:
I think a comparison of mortality rates and the cause of death need to be compared to those in the wild.
It's not sensible to compare death rate to a python without knowing both of the species death rates I nature AND the cause.
Click to expand...

Mortality rates in the wild are not comparable to mortality rates in captivity. With all it's flaws, I think the study is an eye opener.

Just look at the cries for help for all the Christmas chameleons. Don't you wonder what happened to those chameleons when the original poster stops asking for help?
 
I respect the research..so we have this data now what? How to change anything this is what i thought after reading the data..i see alot of negative reports traveling pictures.not alot of positive impacts.the only thing i can think of is control the care of a chameleon and other reptiles with software..i open it up type in my species and it gives me a feeding/diet plan,watering,light schedule based on the locales data,scheduling tasks,medical records, etc..this can be done for all reptiles and save many chameleons is first module..this can be real impact not reports traveling and talk
 
What is the purpose of this report to tell us what percent of essentially break down in types animals died at the hands of attendees @ 2 herp shows in the uk?
Certainly this title is misleading Captive Reptile Mortality Rates in the Home and Implications for the Wildlife Trade should read Captive Reptile Mortality Rates In a Small Segment of United Kingdom..How can we come to any real " Implications for the Wildlife Trade" with this small data set..Im not buying it. Im of the belief the percents are much higher in the big global picture..and fairly high even in the captive bred chameleons.
 
I have removed all off topic, attacks and rude posts from this thread. Some member posts may have been edited because parts thereof contained factual information relating to the topic that was worth keeping.

I think this is an important topic worth discussing so we as keepers can figure out what has gone wrong and what we can do to vastly improve captive husbandry of these neat lizards. Perhaps a separate - yet somewhat related - thread is worth starting about how to deal with hobbyists that aren’t receptive to learning.

Discuss.
 
I also saw this on FB awhile back. I think Chris Anderson posted it. I think it's sad and I'm very sad to say that the precentage of chameleons that pass is probably even more than the study says. I have been here for about 8 years now and have tried so hard to help these precious animals. You just couldn't imagine the number of "I'm new" or "Help me" threads I have opened and tried to offer some help and guidance. I actually get so depressed sometimes that I just can't even look at another one. I absolutely love these animals and it is so sad to see the condition that some of them are in especially the poor veileds. Veileds are my favorite species and it hurts so bad to see them being sold for $20 to $40 and then the people that buy them do not have anymore money to buy the correct setup, lighting, supplements and vet bills. I love to help people help their chameleons, especially the ones that want to be helped. It's very rewarding to me to see them raise a healthy chameleon and then go on to helping others their self. I think the problems I see from new keepers with chameleons would have to be dehydration, MBD and eggbound females from not having the proper or no laying bin at all.
 
My love for them goes back when i started with reptiles at age 19(now 45) gary and tyron dillon partners in californiaIazoological supply.hired me as a reptile freak.at that time zoomed was very small .personally i didnt like the mass keeping of animals in cages so i got away from it far far away..but since then ive been keeping colonies of furcifer paradalis when my living situation permitted. Unpacked more than a few shipments from madagascar..juts horrible..im against imports pretty much seeing what ive seen...plenty of genetics out here..one of the things i wanted to put in the app also is genetics trading..i dunno if people do that..i for the most part have stayed away from the industry and been in my chameleon cave so to speak.
 
jajeanpierre said:
Mortality rates in the wild are not comparable to mortality rates in captivity. With all it's flaws, I think the study is an eye opener.

Just look at the cries for help for all the Christmas chameleons. Don't you wonder what happened to those chameleons when the original poster stops asking for help?
Click to expand...
It's completely relevant... Maybe it's a simple fact that chameleons are a delicate breed (maybe that's why egg clutches are so high... Like a turtle). If death rate in the wild is 50% not including loss of life to a predator, the stats in the study are not causal of being captive.

You can't just create a study with no relationships or relationships to something as arbitrary as a python.... Even though it is a reptile.
 
jannb said:
I also saw this on FB awhile back. I think Chris Anderson posted it. I think it's sad and I'm very sad to say that the precentage of chameleons that pass is probably even more than the study says. I have been here for about 8 years now and have tried so hard to help these precious animals. You just couldn't imagine the number of "I'm new" or "Help me" threads I have opened and tried to offer some help and guidance. I actually get so depressed sometimes that I just can't even look at another one. I absolutely love these animals and it is so sad to see the condition that some of them are in especially the poor veileds. Veileds are my favorite species and it hurts so bad to see them being sold for $20 to $40 and then the people that buy them do not have anymore money to buy the correct setup, lighting, supplements and vet bills. I love to help people help their chameleons, especially the ones that want to be helped. It's very rewarding to me to see them raise a healthy chameleon and then go on to helping others their self. I think the problems I see from new keepers with chameleons would have to be dehydration, MBD and eggbound females from not having the proper or no laying bin at all.
Click to expand...

I believe it, Jann. Look no further than the ads on craigslist. It's a shame how many chameleons are listed for sale, but that's not the issue. Take a look at the photos and you'll see how sickly some of these chameleons are and how terrible the husbandry is overall. It took me no more than a minute to find a Veiled chameleon on there that was being housed in a small glass tank with rodent bedding!
 
I have been here for about 8 years now and have tried so hard to help these precious animals. You just couldn't imagine the number of "I'm new" or "Help me" threads I have opened and tried to offer some help and guidance. I actually get so depressed sometimes that I just can't even look at another one.

It makes me wonder if there would be any benefit to do some statistics on "Help me" or "I'm new and need help" threads and create some sort of sticky message about the reasons we hear them? Might be an eye opener for newbies. We can't force every new cham owner to find us or read our information. I think all of us get fed up and discouraged by the onslaught of sick chams we hear about...and we need to disappear and take a breather once in a while. Just think...in about a month or so all the Christmas gift chams are going to start getting sick. A sad annual cycle. If they are lucky their keepers will find us in time. :(:mad:
 
As a newbie...I just want to say...I hope not to be another typical first time Cham owner and a HUGE part of why I don't THINK I will be is this forum. Good, bad, sometimes maybeee a bit rude (mostly when important questions go unanswered and more so frustration than anything in my opinion), it all seems like it's for the right reasons! I have made so many changes (don't judge me by my picture, his new cage is so much better already) and have done so much reading through the forum and very helpful links provided. I know even now I still have some improvements to make and I'm really thankful that there is such a well organized and helpful place for me to go each day and help me along the way! Here's to the New Year and my Herbies' long and happy life. Thanks guys!(y)
 
gotwqqd said:
It's completely relevant... Maybe it's a simple fact that chameleons are a delicate breed (maybe that's why egg clutches are so high... Like a turtle). If death rate in the wild is 50% not including loss of life to a predator, the stats in the study are not causal of being captive.

You can't just create a study with no relationships or relationships to something as arbitrary as a python.... Even though it is a reptile.
Click to expand...

Mortality rate in the wild would be very high due to predation. In general, nothing dies in the wild, it gets eaten.

I've read that in some places, the total population of chameleons die during the dry season to be replaced by the eggs that are waiting to hatch.

They are not a delicate group of species (there are no "breeds" of chameleons, only species and sub species). They are tough as nails in the wild. It is when we take them out of their natural habitat that we run into problems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Advice please for first chameleon
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
dshuld
dshuld
Back
Top Bottom