Chameleon closed eyes during the day

[Everyday Dad]

I just spotted Ricky with his eyes closed during the day, he has never done this before and he opened them right after I noticed but I'm still concerned. He has been eating less than usual but crickets can escape and he is still pooping so I figured he was eating when I was not watching. He is timid and does not like to eat when I am watching.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Male panther chameleon, ~1-2year old, purchased from a reptile expo 1 month ago
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Attempted when I first brought him home (I realize now that this was a mistake), and he was ok with it. One day he showed aggression signs so I slowly backed off and now he wants nothing to do with me. I don't mind, I give him space but it has been getting in the way of feeding which concerns me
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Gut loading with kale and apple crickets. Some BSFL but he has a hard time finding them since they don't move much. Tried a super warm one and didn't seem to care, Soon I will be trying BSF once they pupate. I try cup feeding and free-ranging. He used to hand feed but now he seems too scared. I often see him walk by crickets on a branch which I originally thought meant he was not hungry, now I am not so sure because it can go on for a while.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Reptashy multivitamin with calcium (includes D3), and rep-cal calcium without d3 on an alternating schedule. My local store and the reptile expo person assured me this would not be too much D3 because the reptashy is low in vitamins (relative to the weekly supplement)
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? He drinks normally from a dripper, all water supplies are cleaned weekly with vinegar and rinsed very well afterward to ward off infection.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? I will try and attach a picture, nothing overly concerning based on the information from the poop 101. thread. Recent droppings can be harder to find since they are bioactive, but I keep an eye out, and he seems to have new droppings. They have decreased in size since I got him, but he has also been eating less. My other concern is that his rates are fairly soft and will sometimes be smeared onto the branch
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. ~2 weeks ago he stopped eating because he was scared of me, He ate some sphagnum moss ~3 weeks ago, I followed hydration suggestions and he pooped it out. He has also pooped many times since then.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? 2 ft x 2ft x 4ft, bioactive, live plants
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? 7 am - 7 pm lights on, 7 pm-8 pm my LED displays blue light. Acadia proT5 forest model. Not sure about the heat lamp because I lost the box. Both lights are suspended to avoid burning (also so i could use more of the top of the cage without burning), the heat lamp can be dimmed to ensure proper temps.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? Exo terra combo thermometer hygrometer 60F at night, 84F in basking spot, ~70F around the cooler areas of the cage, he mainly stays in his basking spot and around that area.
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? 50% during the day, 90% at night. Maintained by plants during the day, mistaking at night. Misting occurs three times, once at 9 pm, once at 1:30 am, and once at 6 am
• Plants—Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? I'm mainly using pothos and philodendrons. I will try to attach a picture.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? My basement runs cooler at night but does not go below night temperature. I often pass by and sometimes my parents will pass by too. Other than that it's a pretty quiet spot. He also gets to see me getting ready for work so he can get used to me. It is a fairly open area though.
• Location - Calgary Alberta Canada

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

As mentioned above he closed his eyes during the day, I have only seen it once but that's too many for me. He spends most of his day basking but does walk around sometimes. He is also eating less than when I first got him. I was always a bit concerned but figured he was eating when I was not watching because crickets tend to get away from me and climb the walls and I have seen him eat them. He is not interested in cup feeding at all despite my efforts. I apologize for any spelling mistakes, I am pretty worried about good old ricky here so i am typing fast. I called the vet and they are booked up but I am going to try getting an appointment soon.

He has wlays been pretty dark since I got him so i think these are just his colours, when he is not basking and he is walking around he is more green.


Pictures
The one where he is basking with a curled tail is more recent. The blueish photo(idk why it did that) where he is basking is when i first got him. The watery poop on the leaf is what i mean when i say it is watery sometimes, but these are not always the case. Also see the poop on the narrow leaf which is better. Lastly we have his cage from the front. We also have his lighting set up and a picture of him walking around


Thank you everyone for reading this, I hope I have not made any major mistakes without realizing.

 

[elizaann2]

Hello and welcome! Lets see if we can help you get that darling guy feeling better. I'll start what I can before I have to run out the door and will tag some excellent keepers for added support while I'm out. @Beman @MissSkittles

 

[elizaann2]

See my answers below in red

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Male panther chameleon, ~1-2year old, purchased from a reptile expo 1 month ago.
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Attempted when I first brought him home (I realize now that this was a mistake), and he was ok with it. One day he showed aggression signs so I slowly backed off and now he wants nothing to do with me. I don't mind, I give him space but it has been getting in the way of feeding which concerns me. Chameleons are very shy lizards and its actually common for them to not enjoy being handled. At best, our beloved chams will tolerate us at most. View him more as a gold fish type of pet - you take care of the envirobment, you enjoy watching him do his chameleon things, but you don't take him out and handle him. My chams only get handled when its weight day, when I'm doing a physical check, when they go to the vet or get some supervised outside time, just to give you an idea.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Gut loading with kale and apple crickets. Some BSFL but he has a hard time finding them since they don't move much. Tried a super warm one and didn't seem to care, Soon I will be trying BSF once they pupate. I try cup feeding and free-ranging. He used to hand feed but now he seems too scared. I often see him walk by crickets on a branch which I originally thought meant he was not hungry, now I am not so sure because it can go on for a while. You'll want to avoid kale in your gut-load, I can't remember what it is but there is something in kale that is not good for the chameleons...same for spinach...don't use that either. I'll attach some good gut load options for your bugs. You can also use Repashy bug burger and a dry gut load like Josh's Frogs premium gut load to add more variety. I'm also attaching other options for feeders for you. Keep trying different feeders, some chams can be picky and some just take some time to realize that the new bug is actually food. I would caution against free range feeding, bugs can walk across poop or areas that had poop on it, pick up some parasites and then when your boy zaps the bug he gets a lifetime supply of a parasite and can get sick quickly. I currently use feeder run cups, great ones are Lunch Logs from Sunset chameleons, NayMars feeder runs from Etsy and I also use those bird feeder bowls. It takes time for the chameleon to adjust to this so be patient and reach out with any questions, there are some tricks to help them catch on to the feeder runs quicker.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Reptashy multivitamin with calcium (includes D3), and rep-cal calcium without d3 on an alternating schedule. My local store and the reptile expo person assured me this would not be too much D3 because the reptashy is low in vitamins (relative to the weekly supplement). What is your alternating scheudle? The multivitamin with D3 you will only want to give him 2x a month otherwise D3 and vitamin A can build up in his body and cause issues. I give this on the 1st and 15th of each month, the calcium I give daily.
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? He drinks normally from a dripper, all water supplies are cleaned weekly with vinegar and rinsed very well afterward to ward off infection. Consider a mist system or hand misting as well. If you are able to get night temps of 68 degrees F or lower I would also suggest fogging at night to aid in hydration. Chameleons get their hydration in the wild from the fog banks that roll in in the early monrings. We find that when we do our best to mimic the hydration methods they would find in nature, there is less stress on the body from getting dehydrated and they actually don't really drink. (weird thought I know)
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? I will try and attach a picture, nothing overly concerning based on the information from the poop 101. thread. Recent droppings can be harder to find since they are bioactive, but I keep an eye out, and he seems to have new droppings. They have decreased in size since I got him, but he has also been eating less. My other concern is that his rates are fairly soft and will sometimes be smeared onto the branch. Its hard to tell from the pictures since those poops are a little older, if you can, try and send a pic of a fresh poop. I know its hard with bioactives. Also - have you ever had him tested for parasites? This is something I would strongly recommend if not.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. ~2 weeks ago he stopped eating because he was scared of me, He ate some sphagnum moss ~3 weeks ago, I followed hydration suggestions and he pooped it out. He has also pooped many times since then.

Unfortunately I have to leave for several hours, I'll be back and finish what I can of your review, unless someone else can get to it before I do. One thing I would note from your pictures is it looks like your plant light has some red and purples to it, you'll want a white plant light for your boy. The colored LED lights can hurt chameleon eyes.

 

[MissSkittles]

…and I’m here and can take over for @elizaann2 who has already given you fantastic info. Just give me a little bit to read thru more and reply.

 

[MissSkittles]

Just an FYI about why we don’t use spinach, kale and some other dark leafy greens - they contain oxalates, which will bind to calcium and we don’t want to pass that property on to our chameleons. Good greens to give feeders would be dandelion, turnip, mustard, arugula, watercress, endive, chicory. I suggest organic produce to avoid pesticides.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? 2 ft x 2ft x 4ft, bioactive, live plants Excellent! If you have the space I encourage giving your guy a double wide. It’s pretty easy to combine 2 screen enclosures side by side and it’s awesome to watch how they use/enjoy the extra space.
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? 7 am - 7 pm lights on, 7 pm-8 pm my LED displays blue light. Acadia proT5 forest model. Not sure about the heat lamp because I lost the box. Ok, but I do worry about the colored lights of your plant light. Arcadia makes a linear jungle dawn which many like. I use Sansi. Both lights are suspended to avoid burning (also so i could use more of the top of the cage without burning), Your guy looks a bit older where we don’t need to worry about him walking upside down in the top. Keeping the basking light elevated is fine if you like, but I’m wondering how much of the uvb he’s really able to get. Using the Arcadia ProT5 forest (or 6%) uvb, you want the distance between the light and basking area to be about 8-9”. Any more than that and he isn’t able to get the uvb levels he needs. I wonder if this might be why he’s so dark (they darken to absorb more heat and uvb) and starting to close his eyes. the heat lamp can be dimmed to ensure proper temps.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? Exo terra combo thermometer hygrometer 60F at night, 84F in basking spot, ~70F around the cooler areas of the cage, he mainly stays in his basking spot and around that area. Also excellent!
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? 50% during the day, 90% at night. Maintained by plants during the day, mistaking at night. Misting occurs three times, once at 9 pm, once at 1:30 am, and once at 6 am I would advise to use your mist king for at least 2 minutes right before lights go on and then off. You can use the dripper for about 15-20 minutes in the afternoon if needed (urates are dark). The enclosure needs time to dry out fully.
• Plants—Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? I'm mainly using pothos and philodendrons. I will try to attach a picture. Very nice set up with the plants. It’s hard to tell, but maybe add a few more branches I think…top left in the pic.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? My basement runs cooler at night but does not go below night temperature. I often pass by and sometimes my parents will pass by too. Other than that it's a pretty quiet spot. He also gets to see me getting ready for work so he can get used to me. It is a fairly open area though. Nice
• Location - Calgary Alberta Canada

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

As mentioned above he closed his eyes during the day, I have only seen it once but that's too many for me. He spends most of his day basking but does walk around sometimes. He is also eating less than when I first got him. I was always a bit concerned but figured he was eating when I was not watching because crickets tend to get away from me and climb the walls and I have seen him eat them. He is not interested in cup feeding at all despite my efforts. I apologize for any spelling mistakes, I am pretty worried about good old ricky here so i am typing fast. I called the vet and they are booked up but I am going to try getting an appointment soon.
I’m leaning towards it all being because of not enough uvb and incorrect supplementation. If you have been using Repashy Calcium Plus - the one with the leopard gecko on the label - more than one feeding every other or two weeks, he has been getting overdosed with Vitamins A & D. Both are fat soluble and take time to be processed and eliminated in the body, so can quickly build up to dangerous or toxic levels. The Calcium Plus has a high level of D3 anyhow and we don’t advise using it. The Repashy Calcium Plus LoD is the one that we use for chameleons. It has a Jackson’s chameleon on the label. That we use for one feeding every other week (or twice a month). For every feeding we use a phosphorus free calcium without D3 lightly dusted - no little powdered donut feeders. If I understand this correctly and you’ve been using either of the Calcium Pluses more than we advise, I want you to not give any more of it for at least a month and let his body eliminate the vitamins A and D3. The only thing to lower those levels is time. Do continue to use the calcium without D3. Lower the uvb so that it’s 8-9” above basking area. Do take a fresh poo when you go to the vet and have him checked for parasites. Even a relatively minor load of pinworms can affect appetite and make them feel crappy. However, some vets for some reason want to automatically give vitamin injections when they hear that eyes have been closed. Just in case your vet is one of them, just say no. Also, while vets may know the medical stuff, they aren’t up to date with husbandry…just keep that in mind. Honestly, you’ve gotten a wonderful start and have come here while there’s time to help your chameleon (which you have no idea how happy that makes me).
He has wlays been pretty dark since I got him so i think these are just his colours, when he is not basking and he is walking around he is more green.
I hope I’ve been of some help and that you’ll hang around and be active in our little community here. At the least, keep us updated on changes and how your guy is doing. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Everyday Dad]

Oh my goodness! You guys are fantastic!! I'm switching off those colored lights right now. Originally my UBV was 4 inches from the top and the top was 4 inches from the basking branch. I am going to lower it and stop using that supplement right away. In 1 month I will have the Jackson label, for now, I will keep to the calcium without D3. I've got my vet appointment so I will have to secure a good poo right away. The only problem is my appointment is 10 days away so I will keep posting until then. You guys are the best!

Also, I did not even think to combine 2 screen enclosures that sounds awesome!

For now, here's an update on my UVB bulb. It is angled because Ricky will sometimes sneak up to the top rights and he would be WAY too close if I fully lowered it (though he may have been moving there to get more UVB anyway). I realized there is likely an issue with horizontal distance so ive angled it toward the basking spot until I can think of something better.
Hoping this helps the little dude.

As for the free-ranging, I don't like it either, and I've been slowly transitioning him to cup feeding. I think if we can resolve this that transition will be way smoother. For now, kale it out! Carrots, yams, and apples along with some arugula will be my new mixture.

I'll keep you posted! Thanks again!

 

[MissSkittles]

Angling your uvb like that is fine, as long as the lowest part has the desired distance to basking area. I use the shooting gallery feeding station. https://tkchameleons.com/products/shooting-gallery I like that it’s quite escape proof for roaches and crickets and others. Bsfl are the only ones that are able to easily squirm out of it. It may take a little time for your cham to get used to it, but then he will always know where to find the food and most run to their feeders as soon as they see us approach.
The poo needs to be no more than 24 hours old to be tested and will need to be stored in the fridge. I use double baggies.

 

[elizaann2]

…and I’m here and can take over for @elizaann2 who has already given you fantastic info. Just give me a little bit to read thru more and reply.

Thanks @MissSkittles you are a lifesaver!

 

[elizaann2]

Oh my goodness! You guys are fantastic!! I'm switching off those colored lights right now. Originally my UBV was 4 inches from the top and the top was 4 inches from the basking branch. I am going to lower it and stop using that supplement right away. In 1 month I will have the Jackson label, for now, I will keep to the calcium without D3. I've got my vet appointment so I will have to secure a good poo right away. The only problem is my appointment is 10 days away so I will keep posting until then. You guys are the best!

Also, I did not even think to combine 2 screen enclosures that sounds awesome!

For now, here's an update on my UVB bulb. It is angled because Ricky will sometimes sneak up to the top rights and he would be WAY too close if I fully lowered it (though he may have been moving there to get more UVB anyway). I realized there is likely an issue with horizontal distance so ive angled it toward the basking spot until I can think of something better.
Hoping this helps the little dude.

As for the free-ranging, I don't like it either, and I've been slowly transitioning him to cup feeding. I think if we can resolve this that transition will be way smoother. For now, kale it out! Carrots, yams, and apples along with some arugula will be my new mixture.

I'll keep you posted! Thanks again!

Wonderful! We are here if you have any other questions!! Welcome to the crew!

 

[Everyday Dad]

Found a fresh poop from Ricky this afternoon, wish my appointment was tomorrow because these suckers can be hard to spot! My concern is that his urates are smearing on plants, I'm not sure what to think about that. His poor pooping spot looks like a disaster.

I also had a look at him and his belly did seem slightly bloated, hoping that it is also a symptom of improper UVB/over-supplementation. I could only really tell when looking at him from above. He is NOT loving the extra attention!

 

[elizaann2]

Found a fresh poop from Ricky this afternoon, wish my appointment was tomorrow because these suckers can be hard to spot! My concern is that his urates are smearing on plants, I'm not sure what to think about that. His poor pooping spot looks like a disaster.

I also had a look at him and his belly did seem slightly bloated, hoping that it is also a symptom of improper UVB/over-supplementation. I could only really tell when looking at him from above. He is NOT loving the extra attention!

Thank you for sharing! @Beman and @MissSkittles what do you think?

 

[MissSkittles]

I’ll be very curious what the results of his fecal are. I see lots of undigested bug parts and evidence that his poos haven’t been well formed at times.

 

[Everyday Dad]

Update: He seems to be perking up and enthusiastic about his water. I have not seen him close his eyes yet today and he is a bit more mobile. He also seems to be brighter while basking but I'm not sure if that's just the light. Still not eating much (or at least I'm not seeing him eat), and he has no interest in the cup. I also saw him grabbing his leg, which worried me quite a bit. This was the first time he had done and he stopped after I bothered him, not sure if it's somewhat normal for it to happen once in a while. I fear for MBD but I suppose the improper UVB would stop his body from properly using his calcium, hoping this will also improve.

Once again thank you for your help everyone, you're all incredible. Still eagerly awaiting my vet appointment.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for sharing! @Beman and @MissSkittles what do you think?

Little slimy... I would get a fecal to rule out any parasite issue.

 

[Everyday Dad]

I kept calling the vet and they had a cancellation! got him in today.

Her main note was that he was dehydrated, which surprised me because I've seen him drinking but I think I will increase his levels of misting and dripper time in the morning, it is very dry here. She gave him fluids to remedy this.
She said that he has not lost much muscle mass but he was not eating and gave me some recovery food to put him on until he starts acting more himself.

She did not directly mention over-supplementation but did tell me to decrease the multivitamin to once a week, because he is small she thinks he may be 1 year if not younger, eventually it will go down to twice a month. She agreed it was a good idea to rotate my UVB.

I was unable to get a poop sample on such short notice so I will be going back as soon as I can catch something, she will treat Rick for parasites if I cannot catch something within a week but would like to confirm before blindly treating.

while he recovers the vet suggested keeping the heat high in his room, with nothing below 70F

Happy to see both you guys and the vet gave me the same advice! Very relieved that she said he is recoverable. Here is a pic of poor Ricky making his way to the vet

 

[elizaann2]

Spicy babies, they hate the vet.

 

[Everyday Dad]

I am very sad to say that Ricky did not make it. Shortly after the vet he stopped drinking water and became very dehydrated. I noticed right away and started syringe-feeding him and syringe-watering him. Last night he fell from his branch while I was away and I found him in the soil. I do wonder what it was that affected him, I came to realize at the vet that the information I got from the expo about his life was not reliable. He was tiny for his supposed age and the vet said he's either young or the expo sold me an unhealthy cham. I am also a bit disappointed I did not push the vet to treat more and instead took the passive approach of waiting for the fecal sample. I don't really blame anyone, Ricky did present as pretty healthy while we were there and things got out of hand very quickly.

I still absolutely love the animal and I think I will be making some changes to the enclosure to hopefully honor Ricky by providing another beautiful guy with a better life. Thank you everyone for your help and I hope to see you in more cheerful posts in the future.

 

[MissSkittles]

I’m so very sorry. RIP sweet Ricky.
If you do try again, some suggestions - thoroughly sanitize your enclosure just in case he did have parasites or something communicable. Steam cleaning is very effective. Anything that can’t be cleaned or is porous, like plants or branches needs to be tossed out and replaced with fresh. Buy only from a breeder who has a solid reputation. All of those who sponsor the forum are excellent and have some beautiful animals. You may pay a little more, but you are not only getting a healthy animal, but the breeder will help and guide you as needed and just provide excellent service.

 

[Everyday Dad]

Absolutely, I have a steamer at the ready and I will be removing lots of plant material. I do really want to find a breeder next time but I do not know of any in my area. Im going to keep a lookout. Ill be making another post for a husbandry review before I do much else.

 

[MissSkittles]

Here are the breeders who sponsor the forum. https://www.chameleonforums.com/sponsors/?tag=chameleons Many have gotten chameleons from them and had nothing but great experiences. Kammerflage has always been one of the best and I see that ver many beauties come from Fram’s chams. While shipping does seem a bit nerve wracking, I had a 3 month old baby sent to me from the other side of the country last year without any issues.