Chamaeleo the "Junk" Chameleons
- Thread starter DanSB
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DanSB
Avid Member
Senegals are an awesome species! They ARE much more friendly than most chams i general and easier to handle.
Keep in mind though when they get all those polka dots they are NOT happy, they are irritated or stressed and losing hours of life... or "Low Stress" according to this: http://www.chameleonnews.com/08FebFrancis.html
I personally recommend minimal handling for a senegal especially WC because the biological reason for them being "nice" is likely survival in that they are small and once caught or seen do not behave like a prey item hoping to be ignored... (just a theory but it is not likely they aren't being stressed when handled). The benefit of them being nice is of course easier cage cleaning and check ups, not regular petting...
midcoastchameleon
New Member
Every chameleon is beautiful in its own way, and none can be referred to as junk. The chameleon no matter what type, is a unbelievable and majestic creature. Sure some may have the ability to display flashy colors, or grow larger then others...but all are unique and special in there own way. Being able to have a chameleon in your life, no matter what type, is a great privilege.
Jamall
New Member
Thank you I think so too
NavyCham
New Member
Yes he gets the dots when he's stressed but there is a difference. His stressed dots are larger & dark brown. The happy dots I'm referring to are the ones he gets when he's sleeping, sun bathing, & hunting. He turns a lime green and gets these tiny green dots.
studio2eight
New Member
While my first chameleon was a nosy be, my second (many years later) was a Graceful. He is WC, but has become very tame so to say. He never hisses or opens his mouth at me.
I think they are beautiful. They get the most amazing markings. I never heard of them (and the others you mentioned) being considered 'junk' chameleons. That makes me sad, I couldn't think of my little Graceful that way. I couldn't think of any cham that way honestly.
I understand they don't get all the 'oooh's & ahhh's' that the Panthers or Veileds do, especially by the general public.
I think they are beautiful. They get the most amazing markings. I never heard of them (and the others you mentioned) being considered 'junk' chameleons. That makes me sad, I couldn't think of my little Graceful that way. I couldn't think of any cham that way honestly.
I understand they don't get all the 'oooh's & ahhh's' that the Panthers or Veileds do, especially by the general public.
HHLL38
New Member
Just my two cents as a new chameleon keeper.
My first was a Veiled Chameleon and it was entirely an impulse buy and I had no idea what I was getting into. However, I did the right research at the right time and everything has worked out wonderfully. I then purchased a Jackson's chameleon as I had discovered that they are not nearly as unfriendly as Veileds. However, Senegals were available for purchase when I bought the Jacksons and I actually wanted them. However, I learned from the store manager that they were WC and I refused (and refuse) to support the WC animal trade if I can at all help it.
Last week a Graceful chameleon was available for purchase and I was considering adding it to my collection, however, I learned that it to was WC and therefore not for me.
My point is, there is interest in the species, but until they are made readily available as CB a lot of people won't purchase/appreciate them.
I would love to purchase CB Senegal's but I have read that they are as rare as Parson's!
My first was a Veiled Chameleon and it was entirely an impulse buy and I had no idea what I was getting into. However, I did the right research at the right time and everything has worked out wonderfully. I then purchased a Jackson's chameleon as I had discovered that they are not nearly as unfriendly as Veileds. However, Senegals were available for purchase when I bought the Jacksons and I actually wanted them. However, I learned from the store manager that they were WC and I refused (and refuse) to support the WC animal trade if I can at all help it.
Last week a Graceful chameleon was available for purchase and I was considering adding it to my collection, however, I learned that it to was WC and therefore not for me.
My point is, there is interest in the species, but until they are made readily available as CB a lot of people won't purchase/appreciate them.
I would love to purchase CB Senegal's but I have read that they are as rare as Parson's!
NavyCham
New Member
id like to see a day where senegals, gracefuls, flaps and other common WC chams are available as CB but unforunately the way that happens in some people have to get WC ones and start breeding. Id also hate to fund those that sell WC but if i cant find a CB mate for my senegal i will have to. hopefully one day i will be able to get on these forums to anounce that i have my own bred senegal babies
italian chameleon
New Member
but there's something i don't understand : if they are a relatively easy species (and I believe they are cause they can adapt to different habitats and are even found near human settlements and plantations in africa )why isn't anybody breeding them?
HHLL38
New Member
From what limited knowledge I have, they are easy to keep, difficult to breed.
One reason they are not bred is that they are not that popular. When you breed a species you then take on the task of finding homes for each baby. If you can only find a couple of people who will take a certain species then the person who bred the species will not do it again because they end up with too many after one clutch.
Prices of WC are a big factor. If you can buy the chameleon for $40 then there are, unfortunately, more talkers then doers when it comes to paying more for CB.
There are some people who are bucking these trends, though. Our forum member Seeco built up a breeding colony of multituberculata during the time when they were the "junk" chameleon. All of a sudden, Tanzania closes and he is sitting on the most viable breeding population outside of Tanzania (to my knowledge). He did it right.
If you have a passion for a certain species then dive in. Focus on that species and build up a breeding colony. In the process you document everything and then the marketing starts. Let people know what you are doing through the forums and Facebook. Publish informational blogs here on the chameleon forums. People will get interested as they follow your progress. You will develop a small following, but they will generate interest in others and the community will grow.
In fact, some chap wrote about this very topic in the latest issue of the Chameleons! eZine at http://www.chameleonnews.com/12NovStrand.html
We need people who are dedicated to a species for the long haul. I bet you senegalensis, dilepis, africanus, chameleon, and gracilis can generate a dedicated following if people were more exposed to the beautiful creatures that a captive breeding program can produce. It just takes someone with love enough for it that they have the patience to build a community.
Bill
italian chameleon
New Member
NavyCham
New Member
I agree too! i would also like to add that another big reason senegals (idk about the other species) are tough to breed because of the long and difficult incubation period of the eggs. ive heard they are particularly hard, almost impossible to keep the eggs alive til their hatch date, or at least thats what ive read on many sites.
DanSB
Avid Member
Mostly for the reasons Bill outlined.
I suspect they are not difficult to breed but experienced breeders simply seldom try and it will always be harder for inexperienced people to incubate and hatch out eggs.
This is an awesome post (the whole thing but I didn't quote it all for space reasons) Not only is it spot on in my estimation but very well put!
Be careful. I really don't think they are any harder than other commonly bred species. Difficult is generally a word used in animal husbandry for either not paying attention or not knowing the best conditions for success. Once correct temperatures, methods, and RH levels are determined hatching shouldn't be so difficult.
Senegals can even breed twice a year!
Exactly! We all need to be aware that it only takes one person who had trouble with their eggs to write about it and a whole legion of well-intentioned readers to then spread it as if it were gospel! It then becomes lore passed down from generation to generation until someone who hasn't heard that it is impossible does it and wonders what the fuss is all about.
But even if it is true that they are difficult, that just means there is a trick just begging to be discovered. Lateralis used to be the difficult species until we figured out the diapause. Now forum member Dooley is into his fifth generation CBB. He specifically chose them because they were a challenge and now he has them crawling out his ears (so to speak)! And he doesn't use diapause so I am not sure what is up with the whole Lateralis incubation...but anyway, he now acts as a guide to anyone who wants to join the Lateralis breeding community. All it takes is one person to break the ice!
I don't think a lot of people realize just HOW MANY really cool animals are out there that we can keep and maintain - and breed.
It kind of makes me sad I run into difficulties in the store encouraging people to try a new or less common species because they balk at it being wild caught. Someone, somewhere, has to start with wild caught animals to create the captive bred ones everyone wants. Everyone loves my little captive bred fire skink babies, but no one ever wants to try their own hand at breeding the imported wild caught adults - which are honestly just as easy to care for and breed as the CB babies. They breed like rabbits, to be honest, but no one ever really keeps them or works with them long enough to produce babies. This is the same thing with the "common" or "junk" cham species - they're great, they're not that hard to establish, but no one ever wants to work with something seen as being so cheap.
I work in our stores full of hundreds of different reptiles, and the same handful always come up as requested pets. It would be neat to see more people embrace something new, a little more uncommon, and little off the beaten path. Snakes, lizards, geckos, AND chameleons. I don't know about you guys but I hope in 10 years I'll look around and see dozens, if not hundreds of species being captive produced and readily available as pets, rather than the handful there is now.
Fingers crossed, right?
Our breeding center here at LLL is working on a few lizard and snake species to do just this - have a few of the more uncommon species available as CB animals for folks to keep as pets. Someday!
-Jen
It kind of makes me sad I run into difficulties in the store encouraging people to try a new or less common species because they balk at it being wild caught. Someone, somewhere, has to start with wild caught animals to create the captive bred ones everyone wants. Everyone loves my little captive bred fire skink babies, but no one ever wants to try their own hand at breeding the imported wild caught adults - which are honestly just as easy to care for and breed as the CB babies. They breed like rabbits, to be honest, but no one ever really keeps them or works with them long enough to produce babies. This is the same thing with the "common" or "junk" cham species - they're great, they're not that hard to establish, but no one ever wants to work with something seen as being so cheap.
I work in our stores full of hundreds of different reptiles, and the same handful always come up as requested pets. It would be neat to see more people embrace something new, a little more uncommon, and little off the beaten path. Snakes, lizards, geckos, AND chameleons. I don't know about you guys but I hope in 10 years I'll look around and see dozens, if not hundreds of species being captive produced and readily available as pets, rather than the handful there is now.
Fingers crossed, right?
Our breeding center here at LLL is working on a few lizard and snake species to do just this - have a few of the more uncommon species available as CB animals for folks to keep as pets. Someday!-Jen
DanSB
Avid Member
... I don't know about you guys but I hope in 10 years I'll look around and see dozens, if not hundreds of species being captive produced and readily available as pets, rather than the handful there is now.
Fingers crossed, right?
-Jen
About 20 years ago I worked a high school job in a small family owned pet store and I also must have visited every store I could find. I must say the prevalence of captive bred animals seems to be much more than it is today. When we ordered Chameleons the only ones we could really find were Jackson's from Hawaii! I hear now in the early 90s other work was being done with Chameleons but I hadn't heard of it. I had no idea other Chameleons even existed until later in life as the internet was in it's infancy and I only had so much time for the library or money for animal books.
Either way I think it is a good bet this hobby / passion will change significantly over the next 10 to 20 years. Hopefully a great many captive populations will be established of all kinds of animals and it is the job of those of us who see it as a goal to spread it like a thought disease!
I think we can, should, and will (or are doing) do our parts by learning all we can and sharing that knowledge. By helping new keepers, by spreading our beliefs that it is good and admirable to keep and breed less common species that might not have the same financial returns.
I for one would be more willing to support a business that is breeding for the love of a species knowing their time and energy could be a bit more profitable elsewhere but providing less of a "real" service to the hobby.
I suspect that if this sentiment spreads we will begin to see more following the example and thus more businesses spending time on improving the hobby to make a buck rather than focusing only on the buck. But that is the job of the consumer, not the business.
italian chameleon
New Member
Your comments are all very inspiring, I want to try to establish a captive population of one of my favourite chamaeleo species now!
(probably I should move to a warmer country first )
(probably I should move to a warmer country first
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