cbreptile

[RyanBRZ]

Well to be fair in that specific case and am not saying I have not heard mixed things about FL as well.

1 day shipping is not 35 dollars. Try 135 dollars. Businesses charge you 35, because people will throw a fit when they see the shipping cost. So breeders bake the extra into the animals price.

35 dollars (or a little more) is actually what it costs to ship 2 day, non Saturday Delivery which is what you got by the sounds of it.

Even if $35 is the cost for 2-day and this is what I 'got', then the baked-in cost of my over-night (~$100) was lost. Not a huge deal considering everything panned out ok, but it was annoying at the time.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

If it was me I'd avoid them and go with one of the known/reputable chameleon breeders.

That's my plan. We did with our BD, and we'll do the same with the chameleon. I'm in the Northeast, and have been collecting and vetting local (state & adjacent) breeders for almost a year—there are quite a few to choose from. Lockdown has put a crimp in some things, like checking out breeders in-person at shows. I've also found prices to be more reasonable at shows, and vendors more willing to dicker; I expect because they would rather sell an animal at a more reasonable price than bring it home or lug it around to another show, etc.

 

[cyberlocc]

That's my plan. We did with our BD, and we'll do the same with the chameleon. I'm in the Northeast, and have been collecting and vetting local (state & adjacent) breeders for almost a year—there are quite a few to choose from. Lockdown has put a crimp in some things, like checking out breeders in-person at shows. I've also found prices to be more reasonable at shows, and vendors more willing to dicker; I expect because they would rather sell an animal at a more reasonable price than bring it home or lug it around to another show, etc.

What is a more reasonable price?

My experience at shows has not been stellar. Quality bred animals are not going to be 50 dollars like a beardie.

Reasonable price is 250-300 for a panther, 200 is a really good deal, under 200, odds are high that will be a regretted purchase.

The folks that charge more. Like the Kammers, do so because they can. Because they have quality bloodlines, and a long standing high reputation for quality animals. They back their health guarantees, answer your questions, ect. None of those things will be avaible buying from a show.

The boi and FBI are filled with peoplw getting ripped off at shows. As that is usually what happens.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I accept what you say—chameleons are not beardies.

Are you perhaps a breeder? I prefer not to mention specifics because I'm not trying to cause problems for any breeders—I'm just relating my own personal experience. YMMV.

When I say "more reasonable," I mean less than typical website prices. I won't state a figure or percentage because that will likely vary with the breeder, and their individual situation (beginning of a show tour, end of a show tour, how well the tour has been going, supply & demand of a particular color or morph, etc.)

We got our beardie from a very well-known quality breeder. We've had need to call them for advice a couple of times, and they've always been courteous & helpful. Health hasn't been an issue—he's healthy and, as far as anyone can tell (for a lizard ), happy. But had there been a health issue, I don't expect there would have been a problem, due to their reputation.

The boi and FBI are filled with peoplw getting ripped off at shows. As that is usually what happens.

I expect those complaints are from people who did not vet the breeders sufficiently (BICBW).

 

[cyberlocc]

I accept what you say—chameleons are not beardies.

Are you perhaps a breeder? I prefer not to mention specifics because I'm not trying to cause problems for any breeders—I'm just relating my own personal experience. YMMV.

When I say "more reasonable," I mean less than typical website prices. I won't state a figure or percentage because that will likely vary with the breeder, and their individual situation (beginning of a show tour, end of a show tour, how well the tour has been going, supply & demand of a particular color or morph, etc.)

We got our beardie from a very well-known quality breeder. We've had need to call them for advice a couple of times, and they've always been courteous & helpful. Health hasn't been an issue—he's healthy and, as far as anyone can tell (for a lizard ), happy. But had there been a health issue, I don't expect there would have been a problem, due to their reputation.


I expect those complaints are from people who did not vet the breeders sufficiently (BICBW).

Not sure how you vet a show breeder lol.

Show sellers are out to sell a ton of animals fast. To homes that likely are not good.

Show sales are opportunity buys, and that should not happen with Reptiles.

In no way, and no amount of vetting am I ever going to agree with you a "Show Breeder" is a quality breeder. They are not.

A quality breeder is going to want their animal to go to what they can verify as a quality home. Which cannot be done at a show. Shows are a large part of why they are trying to ban the ability to keep Herps at all.

A quality breeder might be at a show. Getting their name out, but not selling anything. However the behavior you mention, "Prices changing through the show" ect. Or even being at the show, and moving animals to anyone who will buy them, is not a sign of a quality breeder.

 

[Imimimachameleon]

I bought my Jacksons from them last year. A 4 month male that arrived healthy and free of parasites, no problems so I never needed to contact them again. I was kind of expecting to hear from them asking or having any concern that the animal arrived safe and is doing well, but unlike a breeder, they don't do that.

My first cham and at the time and I was struggling to find Jacksons that are captive bred as most online stores sell wild caught. If I were to do it again I would look harder for a cb breeder and go that route. If you can determine a seller is selling captive hatched babies from wild caught parents, stay away from that as well.

Now I'm concerned. What is wrong with captive bred from wild caught parents?? I have 2 babies currently that are exactly that.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

cyberlocc, You have some good points, the best of which may be that it's easier to vet a breeder than it is a buyer. There's a lot else that I agree with you about, some of which is "perfect world" stuff, but...

That said, the only breeders I've ever heard of that rejected a buyer were... Come to think of it, I never have heard of any (not that there aren't). How does your "quality breeder" vet a purchaser?

"Show sellers" or "show breeders" are not terms I used. I thought I was talking about reputable quality breeders. Also, I never said, "Prices changing through the show". Please don't put words in my mouth.

The kind of breeders I'm talking about (in general) breed one (or very few) particular species exclusively, and derive their entire income from that enterprise. Don't quote me as that being my definition; there are other criteria, and probably exceptions. Hobby breeders (IMO) need to be evaluated individually; I've seen both good and bad.

Of course you're not sure how I vet a breeder—you're not me! (And it's a complex, evolving process. I don't claim to be an expert; I do claim to do the best I can.) When I describe it to most people, they think I'm crazy, but they've never seen how much time & research we put into buying an appliance or consumer electronics (or my last 2 service dogs, for that matter).

One of the issues I have with herp breeders in general—large or small—is that (to my knowledge—please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no reptile equivalent to the AKC that keeps books or records, and standards on breeding. Is there such a thing as a Chameleon Breeders Association? Some individual breeders may adhere to standards & keep records, but many don't. The result of this (either way, IMO) is too much inbreeding; many breeders breeding for what sells for the most—i.e. which colors and morphs are the current fashion or vogue, so to speak—over the health & quality of their lines. This can be seen in bearded dragons; the average length for a male used to be 20"-24". Now, some are saying 12"-24", and 18" may be the new average. bearded dragon length

 

[jamest0o0]

What is a more reasonable price?

My experience at shows has not been stellar. Quality bred animals are not going to be 50 dollars like a beardie.

Reasonable price is 250-300 for a panther, 200 is a really good deal, under 200, odds are high that will be a regretted purchase.

The folks that charge more. Like the Kammers, do so because they can. Because they have quality bloodlines, and a long standing high reputation for quality animals. They back their health guarantees, answer your questions, ect. None of those things will be avaible buying from a show.

The boi and FBI are filled with peoplw getting ripped off at shows. As that is usually what happens.

This.

Shows suck more or less depending on what you want, but are fun to check out.

 

[jamest0o0]

I have seen mixed feedback about FL chams, too, but nothing as terrible as cbreptile.

Generally with their customer service. Animal quality seems good though.

 

[cyberlocc]

That said, the only breeders I've ever heard of that rejected a buyer were... Come to think of it, I never have heard of any (not that there aren't). How does your "quality breeder" vet a purchaser?

I mean its very easy. To vet a keeper in the extent that you can. Talk to them a bit and see pictures of the Setup that animal is going into before you ship it out. To verify its correct.

This is something alot of online breeders do. Not something you can do at a show.

Alot of the time the people at the show are not there to buy a Panther chameleon for instance. They are at the show to look, buy a panther, pick up a crap kit or aquarium on the way home throw the chameleon in and hope it doesn't die which it lilely will.

Shows are built for spontaneous purchases, and "Flash Sales" thats not how you make a long term purchase. A quality breeder will know that, and not sell there as odds are that of the 10 animals sold at the show, 8 will make it to end of life naturally.

Once again, the people that are trying to stop us from Keeping reptiles, use those shows as prime example of how we shouldn't be keeping reptiles. Because the animals bought at those shows are usually not cared for well.

"Show sellers" or "show breeders" are not terms I used. I thought I was talking about reputable quality breeders. Also, I never said, "Prices changing through the show". Please don't put words in my mouth.

I didnt say it was, it was a term I used. Meaning anyone who would sell an animal to random person at a show.

To attend a show, and show off some breeders, and get your name out okay. To sell at the show I dont condone. Sell supply sure, feeders sure, not Animals. Impulse Purchases which is what Shows instill should not be for long term care needing pets.

That is a level of vetting right there. The fact someone has done enough research to find the website of the breeder that sells the panther shows at least a mild interest in the animal and learning.

As to the price changing, your right you said "Show Tour" I confused that, as not someone who endorses these shows.

The kind of breeders I'm talking about (in general) breed one (or very few) particular species exclusively, and derive their entire income from that enterprise. Don't quote me as that being my definition; there are other criteria, and probably exceptions. Hobby breeders (IMO) need to be evaluated individually; I've seen both good and bad.

Well thats good as that's not a very good definition and really thats more backwards to be honest.

A breeder who does it as a living is trying to make every dollar they possibly can. This means they are going to cut corners, or charge outrageous prices. You have already shown how you feel about outrageous pricing, so you get the corner cutters. Who's breeders are shoddy taken care of and babies will likely not be too healthy.

There is 2 ways usually that a Big Breeder goes. They go Hardcore Designer, and charge a Premium for well cared for good bloodlined Animals. Or they go reptile mill and churn out as many as they can at shows and to wholesalers for as cheap as needed to move them asap.

Most Hobbyist Breeders do it for the love the Animal, or to make a couple dollars to help pay for the Animals they love to keep.

These people are way more devoted to their animals, and provide surely much better enrichment and one on one attention than a large breeder CAN, I say can as its not to make the large breeder sound heartless. Its easier to give 1 on 1 care, better caging, more enrichment, when you have 10 panthers than when you have 110.


Once again, I wonder. How do you vet a show breeder. I didnt say how do you Vet a breeder. I said a Show Breeder.

Maybe you came back 3, 4 shows, and vetted them between. However say I came to Show Florida 1. I meet Jim the Panther breeder. How do I vet Jim, at show in the 30 mins I am there before purchase?

I dont, I can't, and even if I think I have and have the Info I lilely didn't.

There was a FBI post about this the other day. Some girl bought a bunch of WTFs from a "Large" breeder that specializes in Frogs, WTF being one. She was sold CB animals, 6 of them, for "Realistic Pricing" they are all dead but 1 now. They were WC not CB, they were sick, they were dying Parasite ridden ect. Couldn't tell that with the stress of the show, but sure found out after.

The very large, good rep having breeder joined FBI, to talk about it. She asked for just an apology, didn't even want money back, just a I am sorry. He wouldn't even give her that, as his booth buddies that are "Show Breeders" attacked and berated her the entire post.

She should have known they were WC price was too good, doesn't matter they said CB. She should have seen the sickness at the show, he shouldn't need to tell her. She doesn't know how to deal at shows.

I'm sorry but thats one of a million story's of shows I have seen, and they all end the same. I will never ever personally deal with in any way anyone who sells at those shows.

 

[cyberlocc]

One of the issues I have with herp breeders in general—large or small—is that (to my knowledge—please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no reptile equivalent to the AKC that keeps books or records, and standards on breeding. Is there such a thing as a Chameleon Breeders Association? Some individual breeders may adhere to standards & keep records, but many don't. The result of this (either way, IMO) is too much inbreeding; many breeders breeding for what sells for the most—i.e. which colors and morphs are the current fashion or vogue, so to speak—over the health & quality of their lines. This can be seen in bearded dragons; the average length for a male used to be 20"-24". Now, some are saying 12"-24", and 18" may be the new average. bearded dragon length

There's not, However.

There is aspects to that.

1. If there was it would raise the cost of the animal yet again, which you already said the prices are outrageous.

2. Most herpers self regulate and inbreeding in Herps takes much more than with mammals to cause issue, not that we should inbreed herps as I dont think we should at all.

3. AKC is a sham, I have dealth with AKC those breeders breed sick animals, sell them for 1000s and AKC is supposed to back you, and they dont in my almost 10k dollars in losses, experiences. Maybe they have came through for others, they did not for me on 2 seperate transactions with 2 seperate people.

I know @PetNcs was talking about making a Chameleon AKC, I think it would be cool to do. So that might be a thing soon.

 

[bobcochran]

I mean its very easy. To vet a keeper in the extent that you can. Talk to them a bit and see pictures of the Setup that animal is going into before you ship it out. To verify its correct.

This is something alot of online breeders do. Not something you can do at a show.

Alot of the time the people at the show are not there to buy a Panther chameleon for instance. They are at the show to look, buy a panther, pick up a crap kit or aquarium on the way home throw the chameleon in and hope it doesn't die which it lilely will.

Shows are built for spontaneous purchases, and "Flash Sales" thats not how you make a long term purchase. A quality breeder will know that, and not sell there as odds are that of the 10 animals sold at the show, 8 will make it to end of life naturally.

Once again, the people that are trying to stop us from Keeping reptiles, use those shows as prime example of how we shouldn't be keeping reptiles. Because the animals bought at those shows are usually not cared for well.



I didnt say it was, it was a term I used. Meaning anyone who would sell an animal to random person at a show.

To attend a show, and show off some breeders, and get your name out okay. To sell at the show I dont condone. Sell supply sure, feeders sure, not Animals. Impulse Purchases which is what Shows instill should not be for long term care needing pets.

That is a level of vetting right there. The fact someone has done enough research to find the website of the breeder that sells the panther shows at least a mild interest in the animal and learning.

As to the price changing, your right you said "Show Tour" I confused that, as not someone who endorses these shows.



Well thats good as that's not a very good definition and really thats more backwards to be honest.

A breeder who does it as a living is trying to make every dollar they possibly can. This means they are going to cut corners, or charge outrageous prices. You have already shown how you feel about outrageous pricing, so you get the corner cutters. Who's breeders are shoddy taken care of and babies will likely not be too healthy.

There is 2 ways usually that a Big Breeder goes. They go Hardcore Designer, and charge a Premium for well cared for good bloodlined Animals. Or they go reptile mill and churn out as many as they can at shows and to wholesalers for as cheap as needed to move them asap.

Most Hobbyist Breeders do it for the love the Animal, or to make a couple dollars to help pay for the Animals they love to keep.

These people are way more devoted to their animals, and provide surely much better enrichment and one on one attention than a large breeder CAN, I say can as its not to make the large breeder sound heartless. Its easier to give 1 on 1 care, better caging, more enrichment, when you have 10 panthers than when you have 110.


Once again, I wonder. How do you vet a show breeder. I didnt say how do you Vet a breeder. I said a Show Breeder.

Maybe you came back 3, 4 shows, and vetted them between. However say I came to Show Florida 1. I meet Jim the Panther breeder. How do I vet Jim, at show in the 30 mins I am there before purchase?

I dont, I can't, and even if I think I have and have the Info I lilely didn't.

There was a FBI post about this the other day. Some girl bought a bunch of WTFs from a "Large" breeder that specializes in Frogs, WTF being one. She was sold CB animals, 6 of them, for "Realistic Pricing" they are all dead but 1 now. They were WC not CB, they were sick, they were dying Parasite ridden ect. Couldn't tell that with the stress of the show, but sure found out after.

The very large, good rep having breeder joined FBI, to talk about it. She asked for just an apology, didn't even want money back, just a I am sorry. He wouldn't even give her that, as his booth buddies that are "Show Breeders" attacked and berated her the entire post.

She should have known they were WC price was too good, doesn't matter they said CB. She should have seen the sickness at the show, he shouldn't need to tell her. She doesn't know how to deal at shows.

I'm sorry but thats one of a million story's of shows I have seen, and they all end the same. I will never ever personally deal with in any way anyone who sells at those shows.

Ed Kammers, Paradise Chameleons, Amazing Blue Reptiles and many more recognized breeders all sell at local reptile shows. As I do. Guess we'll all crap breeders!

 

[cyberlocc]

Ed Kammers, Paradise Chameleons, Amazing Blue Reptiles and many more recognized breeders all sell at local reptile shows. As I do. Guess we'll all crap breeders!View attachment 266689

Well, IDK about "Crap Breeder" however taken the money, over the animals ya I would agree too.

The statics and reality of show sold animals are out there. If you dont care about them and a quick buck is more important, than ya that says a lot about you as a person and your business tbh.

The opinion, is exactly that however. An opinion, so not everyone will feel that way about shows. I do, and the folks trying to ban reptile keeping do. The statics do show that animals sold at shows, and places like Petco as impulse Buys are more prone to being rehomed or uncared for.

There is IMO a level of ethics and vetting that should be in the sale of a living thing. If your not practicing that, than yes I 100% feel you are not a responsible seller of animals and are part of the problem not the solution.

 

[bobcochran]

Well, IDK about "Crap Breeder" however taken the money, over the animals ya I would agree too.

The statics and reality of show sold animals are out their. If you dont care about them and a quick buck is more important, than ya that says a lot about you as a person and your business tbh.

I'm a roofing contractor and make a confortable living. Chameleons are my passion for the last 27 years. Get off your high horse!

 

[jamest0o0]

I'm a roofing contractor and make a confortable living. Chameleons are my passion for the last 27 years. Get off your high horse!

Irony. Love it.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Once again, I wonder. How do you vet a show breeder. I didnt say how do you Vet a breeder. I said a Show Breeder.

...And I'm still wondering if you're a breeder. ?

You're making a distinction between breeders & show breeders that I am not. It appears our experiences differ quite a bit; mine are (so far) primarily with BD & gecko breeders, and it sounds like yours are more extensive. Gotta start someplace!

No offense, but I'm a little wary of detailing my process publicly. I made a similar mistake once before (different topic), and the person asking was actually writing an article, and going to use my BS&T instead of doing their own research. I've also worked professionally as a writer, and may do my own article. If/when I do, I'll be sure to send you a copy following publication.
Being my second time through, some refinements are likely.

I've collected some names & business cards of chameleon breeders from past shows, but they're only a part of the eventual vetting list, and the vetting hasn't really begun. It doesn't occur in 30 min. at a show; it takes months. Before I begin that, I have a lot of reading & preparation to do to get in a "chameleon state of mind." ? (Cue the music...) IOW, do all my research on panthers & their care, etc.

One thing I can tell you... Last time I went through the process, when I saw this on a breeders table (that's an adult beardie crammed into a food container for the duration of the show) they immediately came off my list of "Breeders to check out," and went on my list of "Won't ever do business with these jerks under any circumstances"

...And I've caught breeders of various reptiles lying about CB vs. WC, where they got what they were selling, etc.

IME, it's no more difficult for a breeder to lie over the phone or in an email than it is in-person. In fact, it's usually easier, so I like to meet the breeders in-person—hairy eyeball to hairy eyeball—to ask whatever questions I have.

It's all part of the process, and it's very difficult to make my list.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

There's not, However.

There is aspects to that.

1. If there was it would raise the cost of the animal yet again, which you already said the prices are outrageous.

Where did I say that? All I said was, "I've also found prices to be more reasonable at shows, and vendors more willing to dicker;" Again, please don't attribute to me things I didn't say.
Even the wealthy (which I am NOT) negotiate prices and take advantage of bargains—that's just good business (and how some got wealthy!)

I thought it would have been obvious that if I were in favor of breeders adhering to standards and keeping accurate records that the increased cost would be worthwhile. My mistake.

3. AKC is a sham, I have dealth with AKC those breeders breed sick animals, sell them for 1000s and AKC is supposed to back you, and they dont in my almost 10k dollars in losses, experiences. Maybe they have came through for others, they did not for me on 2 seperate transactions with 2 seperate people.

I'm sorry you had some bad experiences. AFAIK, AKC does not guarantee health. What they do offer is lineage of dogs (unless a fraud is perpetrated). Any testing, guarantees of health, etc. is a function of the individual breeders, and caveat emptor still applies.
WHAT PUPPY BUYERS NEED TO KNOW


But AKC was just an example. My point was about breeding standards & registrations so buyers have some indication that the lizard they pay several hundred dollars for isn't its own grandpa.

Genetic disorders may be less common than in mammals (I don't know that as a fact, but I'll take it at face value), but they do occur. genetic disorders in reptiles

I know @PetNcs was talking about making a Chameleon AKC, I think it would be cool to do. So that might be a thing soon.

I could get behind something like that, depending on the specifics, of course.

 

[Beman]

Now I'm concerned. What is wrong with captive bred from wild caught parents?? I have 2 babies currently that are exactly that.

You just want to get fecals done on both to ensure there was not a parasite transfer from mom to egg. Many breeders work in wild caught chams into their bloodline. It is a matter of making sure they are healthy though before breeding. I would not be concerned. Just make sure your babies are healthy

 

[cyberlocc]

Where did I say that? All I said was, "I've also found prices to be more reasonable at shows, and vendors more willing to dicker;" Again, please don't attribute to me things I didn't say.
Even the wealthy (which I am NOT) negotiate prices and take advantage of bargains—that's just good business (and how some got wealthy!)

I thought it would have been obvious that if I were in favor of breeders adhering to standards and keeping accurate records that the increased cost would be worthwhile. My mistake.


I'm sorry you had some bad experiences. AFAIK, AKC does not guarantee health. What they do offer is lineage of dogs (unless a fraud is perpetrated). Any testing, guarantees of health, etc. is a function of the individual breeders, and caveat emptor still applies.
WHAT PUPPY BUYERS NEED TO KNOW


But AKC was just an example. My point was about breeding standards & registrations so buyers have some indication that the lizard they pay several hundred dollars for isn't its own grandpa.

Genetic disorders may be less common than in mammals (I don't know that as a fact, but I'll take it at face value), but they do occur. genetic disorders in reptiles


I could get behind something like that, depending on the specifics, of course.

I dont want to derail this much more than we have.

So quick easy answer.

When I was saying people are not vetting at shows, in 30 mins. I didnt mean your system that you are saying, where you keep returning to shows.

Rather the average attendees at the shows won't do that, on what is usually an Impulse buy. Also to how I feel the nature of show breeders are, as we have covered.

As to AKC thats very OT, however yes AKC does have regulations as to animal health of their breeders.

At least in the matter that happened to us. 2 yorkshire terriers, both sick with Liver Shunts at puppy age (a few weeks for one, a few months for the other) liver Shunts in Yorkies are caused by inbreeding and bad practices.

Our Vet told us AKC doesn't put up with that and gave us numbers to call. Where the first person spoke with said that AKC should help. Never anything got done. Both animals passed with thousands in Vet bills, thousands in dog purchase Prices, and nothing to show.

As to the Inbreeding of Reptiles. I simply stated that its not as common or quick to happen in Reptiles. Not that it can't have negatives it can. I didnt dig much deeper into that, because I dont agree with the Inbreeding either. I dont think any inbreeding should be taking place, but its common and won't change.

As to me being a breeder. I have bred various reptiles and amphibians over the years. Am not at this moment breeding anything. However, I am currently working on a medium scale breeding project, working with a few species in a niche. Couple of Cham species, Geckos, and Mantellas.

In my own breeding business (its medium scale, but registered business) I will not be attending shows. I will not be inbreeding, and my animals (to the best of my ability on received stock) will have thorough records and Birth Certificates + Certificates of Lineage with every animal. Point is I do practice what I preach.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

When I was saying people are not vetting at shows, in 30 mins. I didnt mean your system that you are saying, where you keep returning to shows.

Rather the average attendees at the shows won't do that, on what is usually an Impulse buy.

Yeah, but like I said, I'm crazy (so they say). ?
I think of myself as "not the average bear." ?

I try to do my best at due diligence.