Carpet Chameleon egg laying questions

T

Troubledluna80

Established Member
Plush my female Carpet Chameleon was made it for the first time with my male on March 27. She was very receptive of him but when I tried to put her with him again the next day she flashed her stay away colors. It has only been 12 days since they were mated but yesterday she only ate about 1/2 of what she typically does and for the first time ever was climbing her whole cage like she wanted to escape. Today she won’t eat anything and I watch her crawl the the bottom of her cage several times. Even though it’s only been 12 days I was worried that I timed it wrong and maybe she was already making infertile eggs when they mated. She was very receptive the first time so I’m not sure. She’s in the lay bin but it’s mostly trying to escape. I did make a test hole for her and walked out of the room for 30 mins. When I came back it appears the hole is gone and she’s trying to climb out. Is it possible for her to lay that quickly? Or is it possible for her to even lay only 12 days after mating? She looks healthy her eyes are not sunken she’s brightly colored and very alert and defensive. Usually she does not mind if I put my hand in her cage to remove the food cup but she tried to bite me today. She hissed so loudly and turned into a tiger. I quickly backed off and was very gentle when I moved her to the lay bin. I’m using Frank’s method on his care sheet.
 

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Mendez said:
While you are waiting for @javadi to respond.


Which care sheet? Frank has changed a lot of his keeping standards since his last care sheet. If you want the most up-to-date information on carpet chameleon husbandry, you should check out this video if you haven't already: https://chameleonacademy.com/s7-ep11-carpet-chameleons-with-
Click to expand...
Mendez said:
While you are waiting for @javadi to respond.


Which care sheet? Frank has changed a lot of his keeping standards since his last care sheet. If you want the most up-to-date information on carpet chameleon husbandry, you should check out this video if you haven't already: https://chameleonacademy.com/s7-ep11-carpet-chameleons-with-frank-payne/
Click to expand...
The one on his website. Frank also was nice enough to listen to my understanding of the egg laying process. Lay bucket with substrate moist enough to hold a tunnel. when she starts showing signs of being ready to lay stopping eating, going to bottom of cage 15-30 days after she was mated then I would turn lights on like normal give her a good drink, offer food and then put her in the lay bucket (outside of her cage) with only the heat light that is correctly elevated to have correct temp surface level, temp took with temp gun. Let her stay in there until she digs a tunnel and lays her eggs. If she hasn’t done so by right before lights out put her back in cage give her a good opportunity to drink offer food again and turn lights out like normal. Obviously if she’s in the middle of Lane I would not move her. He said that to put her back in the morning and tell she has laid.. But she’s only 12 days in and showing signs that I have not seen before walking around on the bottom not wanting to eat etc. so what I’m wondering is whether I should be putting her in lay bin this early. I do have a bioactive cage with substrate on the bottom moist enough to hold the tunnel but there is a ton of plants roots and leaf litter so I’m not sure if she’d be able to dig deep enough. Because she’s a Carpet Chameleon she doesn’t have a cage big enough to put the lay bin in the cage.
 
kinyonga said:
Do you have a suitable place for her to lay eggs in the cage?
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I have a bioactive cage with a deep enough substrate but it is heavily planted so there’s roots, plants and leaf litter. I’m unsure if she’d be able to dig a tunnel straight In with the root system. I did check the substrate and it is just moist enough to hold the tunnel. I did leave the test tunnel open just in case. I did try to put her in the outside Lay bin but she was so stressed out and basically tried to climb the walls out of it the whole time. I didn’t wanna see her distressed so I put one of her plants in the lay bucket so she could climb back into her enclosure herself. She’s active and drinking but is roaming everywhere. Typically she doesn’t explore the bottom that much but she is all over right now
 
Troubledluna80 said:
The one on his website. Frank also was nice enough to listen to my understanding of the egg laying process. Lay bucket with substrate moist enough to hold a tunnel. when she starts showing signs of being ready to lay stopping eating, going to bottom of cage 15-30 days after she was mated then I would turn lights on like normal give her a good drink, offer food and then put her in the lay bucket (outside of her cage) with only the heat light that is correctly elevated to have correct temp surface level, temp took with temp gun. Let her stay in there until she digs a tunnel and lays her eggs. If she hasn’t done so by right before lights out put her back in cage give her a good opportunity to drink offer food again and turn lights out like normal. Obviously if she’s in the middle of Lane I would not move her. He said that to put her back in the morning and tell she has laid.. But she’s only 12 days in and showing signs that I have not seen before walking around on the bottom not wanting to eat etc. so what I’m wondering is whether I should be putting her in lay bin this early. I do have a bioactive cage with substrate on the bottom moist enough to hold the tunnel but there is a ton of plants roots and leaf litter so I’m not sure if she’d be able to dig deep enough. Because she’s a Carpet Chameleon she doesn’t have a cage big enough to put the lay bin in the cage.
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Sorry after I told Frank my plan he said it was correct. I’ve never had a chameleon that laid eggs before so maybe I’m jumping the gun. She doesn’t look fatter than she was before And from all the pictures I see of other types of chameleons they look like they’re obviously gravid.
 
My male Carpet Chameleon is actually in a 4 x 2 x 2 it has much deeper substrate and not so many plants planted on the bottom. I could switch them cages so she would have no reason to have to come out of her cage to go in a separate lay bin. I just don’t want to do that until I hear from someone with more experience
 
Lateralis very very rarely dig and lay eggs in their enclosure, even if bioactive/provided with a lay bin. It's a weird little quirk of the species. They will almost always scatter the eggs if not put in a bucket. So your approach of putting her in a lay bin, as Frank confirmed, is appropriate. As for 12 days gestation-that is quite early, but getting close to the low end of the time it takes post-mating to lay eggs. Remember the time quoted is post-mating to actual laying, so showing signs of restlessness and decreased food intake at day 12 isn't too far off. I guarantee she didn't have infertile eggs growing already prior to being receptive-that is not really how their gravidity cycle works especially for an animal that just became mature. She wouldn't have been receptive if so. So that's not the problem. How much are you feeding her and what temps are you keeping her at? Usually, high food intake and heat can speed up egg development. It can also be very dangerous though if too much is given.

Resist the urge to check on her so much. It's impossible for her to have dug a burrow, laid all her eggs, and covered it in 30 minutes. She hasn't laid yet. When they get put in the bin, they do get frantic and it appears like they will never lay. But leave her alone with no distractions and she will eventually do it. Give her privacy. Also, you can add a thin layer of sand on top of the dirt so you can track where she has been/where she might have laid. But don't worry about her pacing around and acting frantic. I know it sounds odd, but that is almost always what they do. Eventually she will lay. The first laying is always tricky with them. She will get better over time. You're doing a great job and she's behaving pretty normally. The first clutch is usually quicker too, 15-21 days usually, after mating until laying. This is all dependent on temps and heat though.

This is the hardest part of keeping lateralis-getting them to lay without issue. It's not unreasonable to start putting her in the bin now. You're on the right track for sure :)
 
I've never had a lateralis that was gravid, but I've had quite a few other egg layers...and I've found that it's not good to move them back and forth to the bin until they lay.

I've always had a bin big enough that I could leave them in it until they laid. It had branches and greenery and a rock or plant that was planted in the substrate...and thenuvb light laid across the top of the bin. The chameleon could be watered while in there and fed as long as the excess bugs were removed (if they were ones that would Che's on the chameleon or the eggs).

(The only time it didn't work was with one Deremensis I had...she waited until I gave up and put her back into her own cage.)

(The bin was a 65 litre Rubbermaid type container with a lid. I cut away most of the lid and covered the hole with screen. I filled the container with enough sand to be deep enough for whatever species it was and added the greenery,etc. I put the female in and then put the lid on and the lights on the lid.)
 
javadi said:
Lateralis very very rarely dig and lay eggs in their enclosure, even if bioactive/provided with a lay bin. It's a weird little quirk of the species. They will almost always scatter the eggs if not put in a bucket. So your approach of putting her in a lay bin, as Frank confirmed, is appropriate. As for 12 days gestation-that is quite early, but getting close to the low end of the time it takes post-mating to lay eggs. Remember the time quoted is post-mating to actual laying, so showing signs of restlessness and decreased food intake at day 12 isn't too far off. I guarantee she didn't have infertile eggs growing already prior to being receptive-that is not really how their gravidity cycle works especially for an animal that just became mature. She wouldn't have been receptive if so. So that's not the problem. How much are you feeding her and what temps are you keeping her at? Usually, high food intake and heat can speed up egg development. It can also be very dangerous though if too much is given.

Resist the urge to check on her so much. It's impossible for her to have dug a burrow, laid all her eggs, and covered it in 30 minutes. She hasn't laid yet. When they get put in the bin, they do get frantic and it appears like they will never lay. But leave her alone with no distractions and she will eventually do it. Give her privacy. Also, you can add a thin layer of sand on top of the dirt so you can track where she has been/where she might have laid. But don't worry about her pacing around and acting frantic. I know it sounds odd, but that is almost always what they do. Eventually she will lay. The first laying is always tricky with them. She will get better over time. You're doing a great job and she's behaving pretty normally. The first clutch is usually quicker too, 15-21 days usually, after mating until laying. This is all dependent on temps and heat though.

This is the hardest part of keeping lateralis-getting them to lay without issue. It's not unreasonable to start putting her in the bin now. You're on the right track for sure :)
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Thank you for taking the time to answer me. Her basking spot runs from 82-85 and the rest of her cage is 72 (bottom) - 80. I have been giving her as many feeders as she will eat but over the past couple days she has decreased and only typically eats 3 (med) - 6 (small). I feel better knowing her behavior seems normal. I was worried I was stressing her out. I do think I jumped the gun when I put her in there at 12 days bc the next day she went back to wanting food. I noticed she has the roaming behaviors more in the morning but has been going back to more normal behaviors in late morning. I’m worked it out to work from home all week so I will be able to keep a better eye on her. She is way more defensive than normal but it sounds like that is typical and now does have more of a belly. I didn’t think she would be receptive to the male if she had already started development of egg. I think I just got worried and feel better knowing her behaviors seem more normal. You were right the test hole got covered up when she was trying to escape. Thank you for the reassurance please let me know if the temps or feeder intake is too high. She does eat a variety of bean beetles, crickets, dubia’s nymphs, and small super worms. I don’t specifically gut load I just always give them food /bee pollen on the gut load list. Thank you again.
 
kinyonga said:
I've never had a lateralis that was gravid, but I've had quite a few other egg layers...and I've found that it's not good to move them back and forth to the bin until they lay.

I've always had a bin big enough that I could leave them in it until they laid. It had branches and greenery and a rock or plant that was planted in the substrate...and thenuvb light laid across the top of the bin. The chameleon could be watered while in there and fed as long as the excess bugs were removed (if they were ones that would Che's on the chameleon or the eggs).

(The only time it didn't work was with one Deremensis I had...she waited until I gave up and put her back into her own cage.)

(The bin was a 65 litre Rubbermaid type container with a lid. I cut away most of the lid and covered the hole with screen. I filled the container with enough sand to be deep enough for whatever species it was and added the greenery,etc. I put the female in and then put the lid on and the lights on the lid.)
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am going to get her a bigger bin today. I do think she will be less stressed with more coverage in the lay bin and it is a good idea to ensure she has access to lay for the next couple days especially since I am new at this. I did get a pet cam and will be able to check on her without any distractions now.
 
This is one of the reasons breeding lateralis can be tricky. While using the approach kinyongia mentions works wonders for pretty much everything, lateralis have this annoying habit of just sitting on the tree in the big lay bin enclosure and then scattering the eggs. It really seems essential to remove any distraction to get them to lay, including any perching spots. This means using a lay bin devoid of plants/branches etc., meaning it is hard to feed, water, etc. them while they are in the bin. So, to get them fed and watered effectively while in the process of laying, moving them back and forth seems to be the best option, provided it's not after digging has actually commenced, of course. One can just move them from bin to enclosure while they are sleeping in order to accomplish this, that way it's less stressful in theory. You are welcome to try any approach you see fit but I can tell you from experience that lateralis in particular tend to scatter the eggs if there are any distractions (branches, plants) in the lay bin.
 
javadi said:
This is one of the reasons breeding lateralis can be tricky. While using the approach kinyongia mentions works wonders for pretty much everything, lateralis have this annoying habit of just sitting on the tree in the big lay bin enclosure and then scattering the eggs. It really seems essential to remove any distraction to get them to lay, including any perching spots. This means using a lay bin devoid of plants/branches etc., meaning it is hard to feed, water, etc. them while they are in the bin. So, to get them fed and watered effectively while in the process of laying, moving them back and forth seems to be the best option, provided it's not after digging has actually commenced, of course. One can just move them from bin to enclosure while they are sleeping in order to accomplish this, that way it's less stressful in theory. You are welcome to try any approach you see fit but I can tell you from experience that lateralis in particular tend to scatter the eggs if there are any distractions (branches, plants) in the lay bin.
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Ok I will stick with the original plan then. I don’t need to rewrite what’s worked for others. Thank you!
 
Troubledluna80 said:
Thank you for taking the time to answer me. Her basking spot runs from 82-85 and the rest of her cage is 72 (bottom) - 80. I have been giving her as many feeders as she will eat but over the past couple days she has decreased and only typically eats 3 (med) - 6 (small). I feel better knowing her behavior seems normal. I was worried I was stressing her out. I do think I jumped the gun when I put her in there at 12 days bc the next day she went back to wanting food. I noticed she has the roaming behaviors more in the morning but has been going back to more normal behaviors in late morning. I’m worked it out to work from home all week so I will be able to keep a better eye on her. She is way more defensive than normal but it sounds like that is typical and now does have more of a belly. I didn’t think she would be receptive to the male if she had already started development of egg. I think I just got worried and feel better knowing her behaviors seem more normal. You were right the test hole got covered up when she was trying to escape. Thank you for the reassurance please let me know if the temps or feeder intake is too high. She does eat a variety of bean beetles, crickets, dubia’s nymphs, and small super worms. I don’t specifically gut load I just always give them food /bee pollen on the gut load list. Thank you again.
Click to expand...
Do you feel comfortable gently palpating her? From the image you posted it looks as if she has eggs developing but when they get close to laying the eggs should be pretty obvious. In my experience, and from surveying the experiences of others, feeding female lateralis as much as they want to eat during egg development can be disastrous. I know of many cases where they get too overweight to deposit the eggs and they end up eggbound. I'd advise you to cut down the feeding to a cricket or two every other day at this point, but keep with the supplements. This will help her from storing too much fat and thereby restricting passage of eggs.
 
javadi said:
Do you feel comfortable gently palpating her? From the image you posted it looks as if she has eggs developing but when they get close to laying the eggs should be pretty obvious. In my experience, and from surveying the experiences of others, feeding female lateralis as much as they want to eat during egg development can be disastrous. I know of many cases where they get too overweight to deposit the eggs and they end up eggbound. I'd advise you to cut down the feeding to a cricket or two every other day at this point, but keep with the supplements. This will help her from storing too much fat and thereby restricting passage of eggs.
Click to expand...
Okay I will definitely cut back. She is very hard to handle at this point. She flat out attacks the stick I used to move her to the bin this morning. I thought that transferring her to the bin with a stick would be better because hates my hands. I don’t blame her they must look huge. She doesn’t look super plump to me so maybe I am attempting to move her to the bin too soon. I think I should maybe just stay in her cage and watch for more obvious signs. I’ll cut back on the food and post a couple of pictures of her soon. Thank you for your guidance I think I’m actually more nervous about her laying eggs then I was about giving birth to my own children. Lol
 
I put a fake bending vine the pet store told me to buy before I knew better and put it from the lay in to her cage. Hopefully that decreases the amount of stress from transferring and will post pictures when she climbs back into her cage. (I will of course remove it and close her cage up when she is in it.
 
Here’s some pictures. Today is day 15 and I will continue to monitor and reduce food.
 

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