Can Someone Help With My Chams!!!

[dindy]

i just got a new veiled a few days ago and she came gravid.....shes pretty big....i have another veiled that has layed succesfully that is also ready to bust, and another female panther...she is very small still but is showing gravid coloration and hasnt been eating much at all....my question is....how do u know when it is too late and there egg bound and how long until they go egg bound..? i have a garbage can half full of pete-moss and playsand moistened...with just one little fake plant in it....ive had all three in there seperately for a day or so each(hoping they would start to dig instntly) and none of them started to dig......one of my veilds layed in just sand last time and i had no problems...i havent noticed them to be very restless...but do see them moving about a bit....i can see the eggs bulging out if both the veilds and there both showing the blue coloration.....im just freaking out and dont want them to die.....i have a big empty glass cages...should i fill that with the mixture too and have them all in there own laying cages till they lay or will i be able to tell when they are infact ready? im just worried they will go egg bound....my panther is small still i would bet 8 months and she is dark with like a line of orange circles down her side...i read this means gravid(also seen pics that looked identicle to her) ...could this just mean shes unhappy and stressed??? WHAT DO I DO LOL??? i will post some pics as soon as my gf comes home with the digi cam....i would really appreciate any and everyones feedback and help.....thanks alot i owe u guys BIG TIME!!!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

OK. Post pics as soon as you can. Let's take these girls one at a time.

You just got a veiled a few days ago. Is she eating and drinking, and acting normal? Did the person who sold her to you say what date she was mated? Or, is this a virgin/infertile clutch?

You have another veiled that you believe is ready to bust. Is she eating, drinking and acting fairly normal? Was she mated or do you think this is an infertile clutch?

The panther does sound gravid. Has she been mated? How long have you noticed her show these gravid colors? Is she drinking and moving about normally? You say she hasn't been eating much, how much is not much? We have one female panther that eats very little the whole time she is gravid.

To be honest with you I don't have experience with egg binding. But I have been in a situation where I had several gravid females that appear to want to lay their eggs at the same time. Do prepare separate bins for them. The soil/sand needs to be moist enough that it will hold a clump form in your hand when you squeeze it. It has to be damp enough that when they dig their tunnel it will not cave in on them. If it is too damp (soggy) they will not lay in it either.

If they do seem restless and are pacing, then I would expect they are getting ready to lay. If they are still eating then you may have a few days. Although some gals will eat all the up to the laying date, so that's no guarantee.

The best plan would be to get 2 more large containers, even a bucket would probably due at this point (if a bucket will fit in any of their enclosures. Get the soil mixture in there, get it the right moistness, and leave the girls alone with their egg laying container. Taking them in and out and watching over them will just cause them to resist laying and can lead to egg binding (from what I've read here on this forum). You may even want to cloak their cages to give them privacy if they are in a traffic area in your home.

Hopefully some more experienced folks will chime in here as well.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

The egglaying container needs to be about 8 to 10 inches deep at the least, and wider in diameter than your chameleon is long. (altho since you've already been through egg-lying you probably already know this.)

I see that you asked for help with the panther girl last month (4/12-4/13). At that time Kinyonga suggested you place an egg laying container in her enclosure. Were you able to do that? If she has been showing gravid coloration for over a month, then she needs an egg laying container for sure. Hopefully it's not too late.

Although, I did look at those photos you show on the other thread. She has pale gravid coloration. You only owned her 2 weeks at that time. My females have shown this AFTER laying their eggs. It takes a few weeks or longer, sometimes much longer, for the hormones to settle down and for their coloration to return to normal. Some never do. So, it's possible she is coming off a clutch, especially if she is still looking small in her belly.

But, you don't want to take that chance. I realize I'm going back and forth with this, but that is why experienced people will always tell you to have the egglaying chamber in the enclosure. Even if it's a small one. At least you will know for sure when they start digging that they are needing to lay eggs. We have one young panther female that laid only 10 eggs. She looked very small the whole time. Someone not familiar with her would never have guessed she was ready to lay eggs.

What type of panther is she?

 

[dindy]

ok...the one i just got a few days ago hasnt eaten from what ive seen she might of got a few cricks...she looks real fat tho and i was told that she laid b4 and the people i got her off of did not take care of her...they didnt say she was mated but i think she was seeing i got a makle from them aswell......my female i had before (veiled too) is in a bigger cage now 3/3/4 feet high...i have a laying bucket in there ...the same one she used befor but in a much smaller cage....is it possible that she can see my male panther and maybe is discouraged from laying...or maybe the enclosure is too big....would my cats have a role in bothering here....they rarely get into the room but occasionally do.......the other cage she was in with the bucket b4 was much smaller and she didnt have much choice but to be in it if she was at the bottom of her cage.......the fenmale panther was given to me and has always had this coloration....the guy i got her from said she was enevr mated but had a male panmther aswell...shes an ambanja as i was told.....i had a egg laying container in there since that last post and nothing....she doesent eat much like she wont eat cricks since i got her only butter and wax worms the occasional silk and horn and somtimes a few cricks but not often...ii think shes real shy too.....if i just put them into big glass cages with a foot of mixture in the bottom covered up with paper so i cant see in should this be good for them yo houser till they are ready...? the female veiled ive had for a while eats normally...somtimes doesent wat to but shell go at a horn if i put one in...........its the 2 veilds im worried abotu just cause there so fat klike u can see the eggs bulging by there...hmmmm how would u say....slit...lol.........how long is too long to have eggs still in the belly? the new veiled might be fertile eggs, the old veiled is infertile and the panther i dont know ive had her for a few months and she hasnt gotten any bigger so i might just be trippin out, i will get pics up tomorrow for sure...thanks so much guys

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

No, please do not put them in glass cages. It would have to be huge glass aquariums, anyway, to have room for the depth of soil you would need. Bad idea. If you see eggs bulging by their vent, then you've got a problem.

What we need from you now is to answer some husbandry questions. These are standard questions most people answer when posting on this forum under the health Clinic:
Cage Info:
Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?
Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day?
Temperature - What temperature range have you created? Basking spot temp? What is the temperature at night?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas?

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What kind of schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What are you dusting your feeders with and what kind of schedule do you use?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Someone please help this man. I don't know whether to tell him to take these girls to the vet or what. He may just be stressing them. He has these 2 female veileds that are huge with eggs- so much so that he can see the eggs bulging at their "slit" [his words] or vent. I asked him to answer the husbandry questions. And he plans to post photos. I PMd Kinyonga and asked her to help him (she helped him with a panther cham last month), but I don't know if she is online. Thank you.

 

[Vegas Chad]

I would take it out of the cage and put it each into a trash can filled with super soil moist enough to where it can hold a tunnel… If she has to lay this will give her a place to do so… I personally do not like the play sand mix… Also, no tree… Just a stick, you may also want to pre dig a hole for them, not all the way, but enough so where the cham will be able to crawl in and then finish it… Mating dates would help to know how far along she is… It is possible that she just has a really large clutch with large eggs that are protruding more than normal. Give it a bit and if they don’t lay them then you may want to consider a trip to the vet.

Also, leave them in the cans for at least a day without you looking at it... If you think they are at the point where they need to lay then leave her alone... Dont let her see you, often that will spook them into not letting the eggs go.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."i have a garbage can half full of pete-moss and playsand moistened...with just one little fake plant in it....ive had all three in there seperately for a day or so each(hoping they would start to dig instntly) and none of them started to dig"...when you have three all at the same time, you really need one place for each of them to lay eggs so that they can each be left in peace for a few days. They don't always start to dig "instantly" when moved. You don't want the female to see you at all while they are digging. This makes the female abandon the hole...if it happens often enough then it can lead to egg binding.

The less you disturb females when they are getting close to laying the better....so if you have a small egglaying site in their cages, then this gives them a place to dig to show you that they are getting ready to lay the eggs. By small I mean that the container should be at least big enough (when empty) for the female to fit into with several inches to spare on all sides of her including above and below her. The container should be filled about 2/3 full of washed playsand that has been moistened enough to hold a tunnel.

Once they start digging in this small container, then move them to the large egglaying site (one per egglaying site, as I explained above)....and leave them alone as much as possible for several days if need be. They can be watered while in the large container/egglaying bin. You can feed them here as well as long as the uneaten insects are removed so that they won't chew on the chameleon or her eggs.

You said..."how do u know when it is too late and there egg bound and how long until they go egg bound..?"...this is not an easy question to answer...but generally the female will act listless, may sit in the lower parts of the cage, won't eat, may dig a hole and sit in it bum down and fill the hole in after without having laid her eggs.

You said..."my panther is small still i would bet 8 months and she is dark with like a line of orange circles down her side...i read this means gravid (also seen pics that looked identicle to her) ...could this just mean shes unhappy and stressed??? WHAT DO I DO LOL???"...it could mean that she is non-receptive if she has not been mated or gravid if she has been mated. Either way there should be an egglaying site available so that you won't miss the signs that she needs to lay eggs.

You said..."my female i had before (veiled too) is in a bigger cage now 3/3/4 feet high...i have a laying bucket in there ...the same one she used befor but in a much smaller cage....is it possible that she can see my male panther and maybe is discouraged from laying...or maybe the enclosure is too big....would my cats have a role in bothering here....they rarely get into the room but occasionally do.......the other cage she was in with the bucket b4 was much smaller and she didnt have much choice but to be in it if she was at the bottom of her cage"......if she can see the cat or the male panther she might be discouraged from laying the eggs. If she can see you when she is digging she could also not lay the eggs.

You said..."how long is too long to have eggs still in the belly?"...normally they should lay the eggs 30 or so days after mating. However, if they were not mated they can hold them for quite a bit longer.

What (specific) supplements do you give them? How often for each? What are the basking temperatures? What brand and type (compact or long tube) of UVB light do you use and is there any glass or plastic between it and the chameleon?

 

[dindy]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 175 gallon flexarium for both veilds and 3foot high by 1.5feet square for the panther also made out of mesh
Lighting - im using 10.0 uvb flourescent tubes for the 175 gallons and for the 3 foot one im using a 5.0 reptiglow i believe 12 on 12 off/for heat lamos i use 40-60 watt household lightbulbs
Temperature - during the day the cages are at around 70-75 basking spots for the veilds are around 80-85 for the panther 85-90
Humidity - levels are around 50ish i have real plants and i mist regularly(soon to have a misting system from mistking)
Plants - ficus benjamina, hibiscus
Location - the panther is in living room kind of high traffic.....the one veild is too rigth now...and other veiled in in a big walk in closet with my male panther(seperate cages)
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 2 female veilds about 1.5 years each, 1 female ambilobe panther about 8 months
Feeding - usually feed every other day for the females, horn worms, occasionaly other worms, cricks about 10-12 3/4 size every 2 days or so (female panther doesent eat much ever except wax worms....she eats occasoinal cricks) cricks are gut loaded on lettuce, carrots, potatoes,calcium suppliment, alternated daily
Supplements - calcium every other feed, calcium with d3 once or twice a month, heravite with beta carontine once a month
Watering - the one veiled i have had for a while i never see drink but her urate always looks good....the otyher two always seem thirsty and drink, i mist several times a day for a long peroid of time till my mist system comes, i also hve drippers in a few cages
Fecal Description - noticed there poops are kinda fat...looks normal dark colour, urates look white with a few specks of yellow
History - female panther was taken to vet cause of possible mouth rot, she gave me strawberry medicine...i thoght that was kind of weird...also gave me a cream to apply twice a day i did it for a bit but i stopped cause .i dont believ e it was mouth rot ...it just looks like scars and the vet really seemd like she had no clue and because i mentioned mouth rot she just agreed...the female that ive had for a while layed 58 infrtile eggs in sand once before about 2 months ago

one veild is for sure infertile and one could of been mated as i just got her with a male from someon who did not know how to take care of them(i like to think i resued them) the female panther is infertile, i got 2 garbage cans and put 2 veilds in them cause there bigger and pu the panther in the huge glass reptarium that i have all filled with sand and some pete moss....i pre dug little holes not too deep and put a stick in with each of the veilds..there light are all there as well.....im going to put paper all around the glas tankso shes not disturbed.....should i just leave them in these spaces for a few days??? kinyonga they were not in the same one together sorry i confused...lol...how are they gonna drink i theres no leaves in the garbage cans?
heres some pics of what i put them in as well as pics of there bellys and how they look....the first is the veiled ive had for over a year that has layed before the second set is of the new veild ive had for a few days and the last set is of my female panther......thanks alot guys!!!

SECOND VEILED

PANTHER

SORRY THE LAST 2 WERE SIDEWAYS

 

[dindy]

they dont seem to be doing much but im trying not to look lol

 

[dindy]

where did everyone go...

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Greetings! One thing I noticed in your answers is that your temps are a bit backwards. The panther basking spot should be about 85 degrees, and the veiled basking spot should be at least 90. Part of the females' problem may be that they were not getting warm enough. It can make a big difference. You only lower temps on veiled females if you are trying to keep them from going into a breeding cycle.

Please don't let them see you peeking. Be patient. It can take a couple of days for them to get comfortable with the situation and decide to lay.

 

[Trace]

You know, those calyptratus don't look gravid to me - just fat. The blue colouration or spots is my indicator that they are receptive to mating; black with yellow indicates pregnancy.

I can't comment on the pardalis but she doesn't look gravid either. Just stressed.

Perhaps a trip to a veterinarian for some rads to confirm or deny eggs would be your best bet. If they are not gravid, consider a limited diet for them.

Good luck.
t

 

[dindy]

it jsut looks like eggs poppin out in the pics i took, and i did not know that veilds are supposed to be kept hotter i always thought panthers needed the hotter climates...thanks guys and ill keep posted on how it comes out!!! any other help would be appreciated also

 

[chamlover]

Dindy,
It's late and i'm not sure if i read it correctly or not, but did you say she can see the male? If she can that might be half your problem. Whether she is gravid or not; seeing him all the time isn't going to help either one of them. If i read it wrong, sorry. In the meantime get them in the buckets and leave them alone !!!! I know it's hard. Been there, done that.

Debby

 

[dindy]

yeagh there cages were beside eachopther but i wasnt sure if they could see eachother cause of the type of mesh but i have her in a garbage can now, i gave them .5ml of liquid calcium to enduce labor yesterday cause they were lookin kinda bad...hopefully this work...ill keep posted and t6hanks alot everyone