Calumma malthe
- Thread starter happy14
- Start date
chameleonneeds
Avid Member
I think they are an awsome species you have there. I have spoken with Ben before so I believe these are registered animals, and I really think that the US people should not be complaining that it is illegal.
I think the US exports way to many animals that they would honestly like to admit, and it makes me sad to see you guys still exporting those animals out of madagascar, havnt you got enough geckos!??
I think the US exports way to many animals that they would honestly like to admit, and it makes me sad to see you guys still exporting those animals out of madagascar, havnt you got enough geckos!??
chameleonneeds
Avid Member
And what will you do when the most common geckos in madagascar become as rare as this chameleon!? Or the chances of you ever seeing a wild panther chameleon in madagascar become very rare.
morpheon
New Member
If i knew things about geckos, i would act the same. And i'm sure it's the same for everyone else who was concerned about this thread.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove SIR Chameleonneeds, but if my concern about rare species is inapropriate, i sure am confused about this forum's purpose. Furthermore, from what i read from you, we are both sharing the same concern. I just refrained myself from making it bigger concern.
There is nothing personal here, and nothing political either. It's not Germany VS USA, nor me against you. Why are you targeting me or the USA anyway? This was not the point of this thread, not at all.
I thought the main goal of this forum was to help everyone to make the lives of chameleons better, being them in our homes AND in their natural habitat. Don't hesitate to correct me if i am wrong, but i think this conversation has gone way beyond it's original purpose, which was to show great pictures of a very rare specie, and also to warn people about possible illegal sellings of chameleons. That's all.
You can't blame people, including moderators, for being worried, can you? It's not because they didn't express their opinion or concern about the US exportations that they do not care.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove SIR Chameleonneeds, but if my concern about rare species is inapropriate, i sure am confused about this forum's purpose. Furthermore, from what i read from you, we are both sharing the same concern. I just refrained myself from making it bigger concern.
There is nothing personal here, and nothing political either. It's not Germany VS USA, nor me against you. Why are you targeting me or the USA anyway? This was not the point of this thread, not at all.
I thought the main goal of this forum was to help everyone to make the lives of chameleons better, being them in our homes AND in their natural habitat. Don't hesitate to correct me if i am wrong, but i think this conversation has gone way beyond it's original purpose, which was to show great pictures of a very rare specie, and also to warn people about possible illegal sellings of chameleons. That's all.
You can't blame people, including moderators, for being worried, can you? It's not because they didn't express their opinion or concern about the US exportations that they do not care.
are yours animals?
because i had seen this two pics several months ago....
P.S.biggest part of calumma are from malgasy farm. nobody person had hatch malthe and others similar chams.Only some small species(tigris,boettgeri,nasutum,gallus)are somethime availabe true cb,and very little part of parsonii.
because i had seen this two pics several months ago....
P.S.biggest part of calumma are from malgasy farm. nobody person had hatch malthe and others similar chams.Only some small species(tigris,boettgeri,nasutum,gallus)are somethime availabe true cb,and very little part of parsonii.
chameleonneeds
Avid Member
The purpose of this thread was to show off the chameleons, not in anyway to warn people about the black market.
There is hardly ever any threads started about chameleons in their natural habitat.
And I did not say that your concern over rare species is inapropriate did I?
Just it irritates me that some people get worked up that someone has a rare species. Because some people preach about this chameleon that the person has but they themselves sit with WC animals, even if it is a panther chameleon or gecko, soon enough with the huge amount of exporting that countries are doing there will be less and less populations of these common animals.
And 1 thing I would really love to know is how the hell did the US get bradypodion transvaalense, that is soo illegal you could be fined the equivalent of $10 000! It is illegal for the SA people to keep and breed these animals so how did they even manage to export them into the US?
Now that is some very bad black market magic
happy14
New Member
So I am very much against illegal animals and we, the chameleon holder, should help with the wild, the chameleons of this world and be respected and protected! You can not just take times as Wild animals from their home, this is wrong!
But the U.S. is also very much with animal exports and imports with too! However, many other numerous countries ... .
No one here is condemned!
But if you have such rare animals with them, you should try to cultivate them to secure their preservation!
It should act, however, and not bred to Wild!
But the U.S. is also very much with animal exports and imports with too! However, many other numerous countries ... .
No one here is condemned!
But if you have such rare animals with them, you should try to cultivate them to secure their preservation!
It should act, however, and not bred to Wild!
shanksfaml
Member
It is threads like these that make me weary to post anything on this forum. It often seems that many of the members sit in watch and wait, just to jump on someone who leaves a post. There is a lot of information on here shich I have enjoyed recieving but, when I want to communicate with someone I preffer to use the PM method, it seems much safer!
eisentrauti
Avid Member
From whom did you know that those species are rare ? Some of them for sure, but not all. And that's my problem here. The small black market which definitly exists doesn't threaten the chameleon species of Madagascar. Big companies which burn the forests to get the mineral deposits or deforestation in general let the species go forever, some are even gone before mankind has found a single specimen of them
Kent67
Retired Moderator
*Sigh* Anyone who thinks there's some sort of USA vs everyone else with these animals is incredibly wrong. We don't want them smuggled here, either. We really don't care where they go and if that's the best response you can come up with for your side of the argument, then I think you know the truth and have decided that you'd rather have them in your home than protect them the way the international community decided it was necessary to....16 years ago. That is too selfish of a choice for me to make, especially when so many legal species are already available.
Uroplatus are still allowed to be exported from Madagascar under CITES quotas just like panthers, oustalet's, carpets, and verrucosus. We can't help it that the EU decided to not allow them into Europe anymore. Sorry. I'm also sorry that it bugs me when I see people congratulating someone on their clearly smuggled animals (not saying these were, but you know the threads I'm talking about). I can't help it. It makes no sense to me to say that you love chameleons, and then continue to support smuggling the ones that don't do well and are extremely difficult to reproduce in captivity. If you put it on a public forum, the public will respond. Even those with views different from your own.
And yes, chameleonneeds, I would sure also like to know how those ADULT B. transvaalense made it here, too. Captive born? I've seen the pics and I seriously doubt it.
Uroplatus are still allowed to be exported from Madagascar under CITES quotas just like panthers, oustalet's, carpets, and verrucosus. We can't help it that the EU decided to not allow them into Europe anymore. Sorry. I'm also sorry that it bugs me when I see people congratulating someone on their clearly smuggled animals (not saying these were, but you know the threads I'm talking about). I can't help it. It makes no sense to me to say that you love chameleons, and then continue to support smuggling the ones that don't do well and are extremely difficult to reproduce in captivity. If you put it on a public forum, the public will respond. Even those with views different from your own.
And yes, chameleonneeds, I would sure also like to know how those ADULT B. transvaalense made it here, too. Captive born? I've seen the pics and I seriously doubt it.
Last edited:
eisentrauti
Avid Member
It's not USA vs everybody else. It's just the fact that your market "consums" most of all WC species.
The international community decided to protect them: So if I can ask, who is the international community ? Some guys, sitting together in one conference room arguing about species they have never seen ? Congratulations !
Btw Kent, don't take it personal, but from what I have read, Trioceros pfefferi is in its habitats not very common. Calumma gastrotaenia is found in very high numbers in its habitats. So now the moral question: Is it better to keep pfefferi (yes, those are legal !) or gastrotaenia (the smuggled ones, which are illegal).
GoFast
New Member
You are confusing morals with legality...not two things that necessarily go hand in hand.
morpheon
New Member
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Hey Ben, I agree CITES is not perfect but it is the one and only legal-structured organization trying to protect endangered species from going extinct because of international trade. Got any better suggestions? The suspension on Calumma species would be lifted if anyone provided scientific evidence that collection won't hurt populations. C. gastrotaenia is a perfect example of one that could be exported legally again. Your moral question is a good one that I may change my mind on, but to me, the Pfeffer's come in so rarely. It had been at least 6 or 7 years since I heard of any coming in before these two shipments so I didn't feel like the 60 or so animals this season would have an overall detrimental impact to the species although, thinking about it now, certainly a single population could have been harmed and that would be a shame.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
eisentrauti
Avid Member
I know that's especially for those countries which we are talking about not possible to care exactly for laws about animals/animal trade. They have much bigger problems and the money which is needed to make field studies etc makes more sense in general nature conservation plans or to help the locals.
Again I don't want to run down your pfefferis. We all know that 50 specimen of one chameleon species aren't the crucial factor which decides if species becomes endangered or not (at least in most cases). That's why I haven't got a problem when smuggled animals come in the hands of people who can care for them. The market for those species isn't that big and only a small percentage of all chameleon keepers is interested in keeping them. (I bet 90% prefer Furcifer padalis instead of all small Calummas).
Another example is Tanzania: Why is it just aloud to import 20 heads or so from Kinyongia tenuis ? They are really common in their area. Lygodactylus williamsi lives in a very small habitat and they were exported in uncountable numbers.
Or the funny fairytales about Farm breed animals...they are always breed by the guy who pays most money for the papers...
Those facts annoyed me
