Calcium: with or without V d3?

Discussion in 'Health Clinic' started by Jax2214, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    @Jax2214 you said..."So, calcium.
    I don’t know what calcium to use. Currently, I’ve been dusting my crickets everyday w/D3. Should I be using different calcium?"....

    I’ve read on some of these forums that I should use a small variety of different calcium. Some have said to use D3 a few times a month.

    So, all in all, what calcium should I use, how many types of calcium should I have, and how often do I use different calcium?"...what I have done for years is use Rep-cal, a phosphorous-free calcium powder at almost every feeding and Rep-cal phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month and Herptivite twice a month. Years ago I used a vitamin powder with a prEformed vitamin A powder (Nekton Rep) instead of the h
    Herptivite and it was the only time I had a chameleon autopsy come back saying the chameleon was lacking vitamin A. However that chameleon also did not grow much even though I treated every one of them the exact same...so there may have been a problem/"birth defect" that caused it's problems.

    You said..."Thank you guys so much!!!"...so sorry we hijacked your thread but I hope it helps you see in part why supplementing is a tough topic. What I told you above comes from my experiences...it's not the only answer as you can see.
    I hope the links I posted help too.
     
    Extensionofgreen likes this.
  2. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    we do this to balance phosphorus- calcium ratio, so plain calcium with every feeding should be practice. As far as I know you can not over supplement calcium.
     
  3. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast

    Balancing calcium to phosphorus ratios sounds good in therory, but virtually all vegetation is high in phosphorus, especially fruits. I doubt most insect prey has what we have decided is the best calcium to phosphorus ratio. The articles linked by kinyonga state that you can indeed over supplement with calcium. Some people may need to dust more often than others, because of utilizing different feeders and gutloads. I make my own gutload and balance the calcium to phosphorus ratio there. I also look at what wild insects are eating and what chameleons of various species of chamelon are likely to be consuming in the wild, based on their chosen habitat, location in which they live, and the chameleon’s size. There is so much more to consider than calcium to phosphorus rations. Likely, if consuming prey with poor ratios in the wild, as they certainly are, their bodies may be fine tuned to excrete the excess phosphorus and hold onto the available calcium. Herbivores survive on high phosphorus diets and you can bet your life that they aren’t consuming plant material that is high in calcium as a large percentage of their diet. Calcium is there, but the ratios aren’t perfectly balanced and they develop flawlessly. The medical/scientific/and hobby community has drawn conclusions from the little information that they know and since there aren’t millions of dollars pouring into cutting edge research, it becomes a mantra that sticks. It’s the best we have, right now, but it should be clear that no conclusions can be drawn about how much is detrimental and how much is needed, because it varies and we don’t know. We do know some supplementation is helpful and too much is not. People are raising healthy chameleons supplementing with calcium every day, and there others doing so without supplementing everyday. With newer keepers, a moderate approach is better than a one size fits all of regurgitated mantra. If people are doing what they need to with lighting and gutloading, then they are far more likely to have success and not overdo it by dusting 4 times a week.
    There isn’t a right way or a wrong way, since the literature beyond this site is divided an inconclusive, so it’s subject to opinion. One must do what works best for them with the information they have. Unfortunately, people come here and it becomes their only source of information and the forum, while excellent for people getting started, has a broken record on repeat to dust every day and there are cases that 100% isn’t the best approach. I seldom see anyone recommending to taper or dial down the dosage or frequency for adult animals. People hear every day and dust everyday until they no longer have the chameleon, for whatever reason. Clearly, an adult animal will have calcified bones and not require the same amount of calcium as an actively growing juvenile. Females animals are using more calcium than males in egg production and will need more than males. A blanket approach makes everyone feel safe and cozy and no one has a horror story to share from following the advice, but nor has my approach been shown to cause problems with chamelons.
     
  4. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    As my knowledge goes this is not a hypothesis. the unbalance with phosphor is harmful. as far as i know. Because of this the adding of the calcium is necessary.
     
  5. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast

    I’m not asking this to be condescending or belittliling or insinuate anything, just trying to get to know you better. Can you give me some information on your background, chameleons keeping experiences, and where you draw this information from?
    Again, I’m not asking so that I can discredit you. I just want to understand your platform and how you arrived at your opinion.

    I am learning and don’t have any answers I can say unequivocally are scientifically accurate; just my opinions based on my own background, research, and experience, so we are on equal ground. I’d just like to know all of the angles.
     
  6. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    Don´t worry man. I wouldn't give a damn if you were condescending anyway. i am not too big on being passive aggressive. just tell people to go f*ck themselves straight out, no Point on pretending to be nice while you trying to offende someone.
    But chameleon wise. My experience is maily based on trioceros. quadricornis, jacksonii and melleri. I had the ordinary chamelons aswell, Panther , Yemens.

    Dusted with sticky farm tongue with d3 in every feeding for my Yemens. no a single trace of MBD, Had Always read of people having their getting MBD.
    Tried with Jacksons they died of lever failure.
    Mellery did alright with an non d3 calcium with everyfeeding.
    Same with quadricornis.
    My knowledge come maily from Reading. Reading and Reading and Reading. Reading peoples problem. what they can say about housbandry. people with similar problems with similar conditions who have worked it out. comparing the problems i have encounter to other who had share the same problem. what they did the same way i did and what was different. see if someone has Already tried to do what I iam to change and see how it Went for them.
    But no. i do not hold onto the last Word. Maybe you are right. Maybe I keep on Reading people doing calcium your way. maybe people who i know experience problems been solved by using that approach. maybe i´ll hope onto that waggon. As for now it isn´t anything really saying to not do it that way.
     
  7. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast

    I have worked with most of the same species you have, melleri being my absolute favorite. I take the same approach you do......read, read, read, and then make decisions based on what I see in my animals and how I interpret the sum of the data. That’s all any of us can do. I always appreciate someone that arrive there on their own research, rather than someone that read it on the forums and is now another “expert”, regurgitating the information onto every newbie thread that comes up. I wish people had more desire to not just get information, but to understand it and it’s sources, as well as the reasoning behind it.
     
    leedragon likes this.
  8. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    Yepp that´s information. many of us will read the same books and the same information over and over again, this will be regurgatating the informations over and over again. the opposite would be to reinvent the Wheel each time. sometimes one just have to do what everybody is telling them not to just to see that their chameleon can actually died because of it. sometimes they find something Amazing. A year ago i was against substrate. Now I see people having succés with it. I am not using it. but I know it works now. i don´t know about experts. to tell the truth the only experts around here are Chris and necas. we all other people are just hobbyists dealing with chameleons.
     
  9. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    @Extensionofgreen ...You said..."I seldom see anyone recommending to taper or dial down the dosage or frequency for adult animals. People hear every day and dust everyday until they no longer have the chameleon, for whatever reason. Clearly, an adult animal will have calcified bones and not require the same amount of calcium as an actively growing juvenile"...when we cut the feeding to every other day or 3 to 4 times a week don't we automatically cut down the cakcium because we are feeding less insects less often?
     
  10. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast

    Theoretically, but tapering down the feeding is seldom discussed when questions are asked about supplementation. I see time and time again the “calcium every day with every feeding and vitamins and D3 twice a month”. I think people are trying to defend the mantra, because they believe I am saying it is wrong or harmful. I am simply suggesting that there are many variable that determine how we should approach supplementation and if people aren’t looking into the reasoning behind the advice and just taking what people tell them and running with it, they will possibly fail to recognize that they should change food intake as the animal ages or perhaps increase calcium intake for females during gravid cycles. There’s too much at stake and too little information to not at least say something like “ Many start out with x routine for this species at this stage in life, but as it gets older or is carrying eggs, people often change to a different routine.”. People don’t read caresheets for crying out loud, so I don’t think people comprehend 75% of the information they are given and I think blindly following, even good advice, creates complacency and eliminates the likelihood that people will research and try to understand their animals better.

    I’m keeping a veiled and 2 parsons. I’ve raised my veiled from a young juvenile, to an adult and I treated him the same as my parsons, regarding supplementing calcium, but I do give him vitamin supplements more often than I do parsons. I have an understanding of why I think this is the best approach, because I arrived there by seeking to understand chameleons, not falling in line with a one size fits all approach.
     
  11. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    I'm always see calcium every feeding...not every day, every feeding....that's what I say!
    I have often said there is no one way to do things when it comes to chameleons...where we live,

    You said... It would be good if it was said that "Many start out with x routine for this species at this stage in life, but as it gets older or is carrying eggs, people often change to a different routine.”...it definitely would. I know i havent said that often because every comment I have to add to what i already say takes time...so I try to give new people enough information to get them started and keep the chameleon alive and well while they research them further...granted...it doesn't always work...but I spend enough time doing that I think. If people are going to keep chameleons then they should take some initiative and learn, read, think about things as well as getting information on here.
     
  12. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast


    I hope you don’t feel insulted or as if I’m saying that you aren’t giving more information. It’s a fine line between providing enough and not overwhelming them with the “rabbit hole” of information that is lighting, nutrition, and supplementation. You do members of this forum a great service with the time you take to provide new people with advice and your input and experience is an enormous asset.

    Part of the reason I don’t reply to new threads for help is that my temperament finds answering things that are easily found with a cursory glance emotionally draining. I know that’s my personality and that I can’t expect everyone to think the way I do, so I avoid the situations that would upset me or that I feel will be adequately covered by someone more patient. I try to always remain diplomatic and compassionate, though sometimes I’m screaming in my head.
    In all fairness, it can be overwhelming to navigate lighting, supplementation, and gutloading. One source will condemn one ingredient and another will endorse it. One source will advocate a certain light and another will vilify it. I do understand the reason people come and ask questions I find repetitive. I also remember that I wasn’t born with my experience and knowledge and if it weren’t for patient people guiding me and for easily found information to give me the solid start I needed to allow me learn more on my own, I wouldn’t be as knowledgeable as I am.
    My thinking on supplementation is largely based in what is written as common knowledge, but also my applied opinion and experience based on my experience as a part of the medical community and how I think things happen in nature. I KNOW that chamelons arent getting vitamins twice a month, in nature. They get small amounts every time they feed. Of course, with sound gutloading, they are doing so I’m captivity as well, but if something were missing that is provided by dusting with Vitamin supplements, then the functioning systems that require that item are starving for it, if it’s only offered sparingly, twice a month. It’s why I use a weaker dosage more often then most.
    I guess I take things so seriously at times I make a hobby more of a job; certainly it’s an obligation. I will never stop trying to improve my husbandry until I have all of the answers and no one ever has all of the answers to anything. That makes me a lifelong student of Chameleon keeping.
     
  13. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    @Extensionofgreen said..."I hope you don’t feel insulted or as if I’m saying that you aren’t giving more information. It’s a fine line between providing enough and not overwhelming them with the “rabbit hole” of information that is lighting, nutrition, and supplementation. You do members of this forum a great service with the time you take to provide new people with advice and your input and experience is an enormous asset"...it isn't easy to give enough information without overwhelming people. Thank-you for the comments about my service tomthis forum.I try.

    You said..."Part of the reason I don’t reply to new threads for help is that my temperament finds answering things that are easily found with a cursory glance emotionally draining. I know that’s my personality and that I can’t expect everyone to think the way I do, so I avoid the situations that would upset me or that I feel will be adequately covered by someone more patient. I try to always remain diplomatic and compassionate, though sometimes I’m screaming in my head"...I scream in my head a lot on here with having to repeat the same things over and over.

    You said..." In all fairness, it can be overwhelming to navigate lighting, supplementation, and gutloading. One source will condemn one ingredient and another will endorse it. One source will advocate a certain light and another will vilify it. I do understand the reason people come and ask questions I find repetitive. I also remember that I wasn’t born with my experience and knowledge and if it weren’t for patient people guiding me and for easily found information to give me the solid start I needed to allow me learn more on my own, I wouldn’t be as knowledgeable as I am"...when I started keeping reptiles there was almost no information on proper care. I learned a lot from experience, reading, reasoning things out on my own, etc and was lucky enough to stumble over a vet who also had a great interest in chameleons who not only helped my chameleons but involved me in teaching/lecturing vets, vet students and in studies on reproduction and discoveries re: CANV, etc.

    You said..."My thinking on supplementation is largely based in what is written as common knowledge, but also my applied opinion and experience based on my experience as a part of the medical community and how I think things happen in nature. I KNOW that chamelons arent getting vitamins twice a month, in nature. They get small amounts every time they feed. Of course, with sound gutloading, they are doing so I’m captivity as well, but if something were missing that is provided by dusting with Vitamin supplements, then the functioning systems that require that item are starving for it, if it’s only offered sparingly, twice a month. It’s why I use a weaker dosage more often then most"...the reason I say twice a month is to ensure that they get some of everything for sure...and I agree it would be better to do it in smaller doses more often...but do you think people will get it right or overdo it...so this is a bandaid solution IMHO.

    You said..."I guess I take things so seriously at times I make a hobby more of a job; certainly it’s an obligation. I will never stop trying to improve my husbandry until I have all of the answers and no one ever has all of the answers to anything. That makes me a lifelong student of Chameleon keeping"...I never stop trying to find the answers either but when what I do gives my chameleons and other reptiles long, healthy lives and they reproduce healthy offspring that also live long healthy lives, etc I feel like I'm on the right track. I'm definitely a life long student of chameleons and other things in nature.
     
    Extensionofgreen likes this.
  14. Extensionofgreen

    Extensionofgreen Chameleon Enthusiast

    You are absolutely right about it being better safe than sorry on advising people on how to use vitamins. Again, it’s really easy to give too much information. I tend to want to give all of the information I know to people and I forget that that information came to me in bits and pieces over time and I didn’t have to process it all at once.
     

Share This Page



Loading...