Hi Folks,
Someone just pointed me to this thread. I am on the road right now, but want to start by pointing out a few things in regards to vitamin D, A, and calcium..... they all require balance... Saying there is too much Vitamin A in the product is not a statement based on science or fact. There is an optimum ratio of Vitamin A to Vitamin D that has shown to be quite consistent across the range of vertebrates.... that ratio is 10 to 1. Calcium Plus follows this rule to the letter. The levels of vitamin D3 in Calcium plus are WAY lower than Repcal and most other products. The levels of D3 in the product are balanced to the amount of elemental calcium in the product in order to provide enough of it to utilize the calcium in the product as efficiently as possible.
So, unless I am understanding this incorrectly, you are eluding to the fact that we are under-supplementing Vit A when using the general Rep-Cal set of supplements (that is Herptivite, once to twice a feeding once to twice a month)? Or at least, blindly dosing with regards to actual baseline ratios as can be compared to better known records of optimum vertebrate ratios.
Just to clarify what I am saying, is that when you have a balanced ratio of vitamins, saying Too much A... is not correct and you would be more correct saying too much of "Everything" if that was indeed the case. If you were supplementing only vitamin A, then the statement "too much vitamin A" could be quite correct. When fat soluble vitamins are out of balance, bad things can happen.. much worse than high levels of balanced vitamins, if that makes sense.
That makes perfect sense. However, when we feel the need (due to lack of knowledge), we resort to mixing of given set of supplements. In that case, which is most, how are we to know we have reached the appropriate balance?
Are there any published assessments of proper balanced ratios that we can base of off (however close to insectivorous reptiles we can be that is)? You mentioned that certain nutritional component ratios have shown to be consistent among various vertebrates, do you know of a published source that can provide us with even a basic outline of general ratios, as deemed appropriate by proper component to component ratios?
There are a million reasons that a group of chameleons can have issues, and I feel that blaming it on Vitamin A in my product is a big reach. As mentioned before, the clinical reports of Hypovitamintosis A in reptiles are nearly non existent. Last personal communication I had with Dr. Scott Stahl, he reported that had NEVER personally had a case, and that it was always something else.
I have heard and seen many people report cases or elude to issues surrounding too much or too little Vit A. You say that clinical reports for Hypovitamintosis A are nearly non-exsistant, is this fact true for clinical reports of Hypervitamintosis A?
Anytime someone brings this up, I cannot help but view such with (subjective) skepticism.
Like several of the people with experience on here have said, there are a LOT of variables to consider.....
This is absolutely true, however, I feel this fact does not merit too much consideration on the current subject as we are a large group of people qualitatively assessing the subject. Initially, it seems that such a diverse group of people using a relatively wide range of methods, numerically we would end up reporting results and viewing this matter with the key component surrounding
lighting and
vitamin/mineral supplementation. That does go on the assumption that these two topics are the key challenges in captive bred Veileds and Panthers, thus being the numerically dominant ailments presented in such forums. That of which may be a far reach of a statement within it self. I do know, as a herptoculturist of over 10 years, my knowledge of ACTUAL nutritional requirements of this nature are probably one of the most unclear topics surrounding herptoculture. In part, due to my negligence for detailed consideration and research of the topic I am sure.
I just want to clarify that I am not taking this as a bash on my products that I think needs defending. The OP did in fact say they liked the stuff... I just think the OP should keep an open mind and look at other possibilities when searching for an answer.
Well said, and I like where you are going with the subject. The fact of having a balanced ratio of whatever we may present to our animals makes sense and this sounds quite apparent in how your team formulated Calcium Plus. I look forward to learning more about this and how to better utilize the tools of nutrition you have placed at our hands. You are certainly helping us in the right direction. With that said, it intuitively seems that sticking with Cal Plus would be a better action than trying to qualitatively balance a mix of three different supplements (Repcal), with the only real basis being what HAS worked for people in the past.
The likelyhood of something like parasites or other illness imho are not something to dismiss.
Certainly not, and I hope no one would doubt this. Although, I consider this an extrinsic factor to some degree. For the same reason, as in captive bred animals, these factors being general anomalies.
If someone was reporting issues like this for montane species, I would be thinking differently about it. My post history on here shows that I have agreed that a regiment for these species is likely to require less supplementation...... not a different product, because it is about balance..... but less often.
Can you or anyone else explain just why montane species might require lower amounts of supplementation? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head might be due to lower metabolic rates, if that is indeed even true. It seems that general prey would be just as nutritionally balanced in more lush and or higher elevation communities. Perhaps this all comes together to account for the fact that such animals would eat less, thus having the same balance, but simply lower levels of actual intake.
Again, the BALANCE, makes a lot of sense. Thank you for outlining that.
But Veileds and Panthers I just do not see having issues from daily supplementation.
Are you stating this in the context of Calcium plus daily use?
The Kammers paved the way with their growout and breeding studies, but many others have reported great success after switching
.
Again, are you implying that the Kammers have indeed found a way to use Calcium Plus in an effective and fully functional manner?
Unfortunately, those of us (including myself), claiming to be having ill results this Calcium Plus are probably not relying on clinical results on any level whatsoever. Thus, making our conclusions rather superficial. There are simply too many other intrinsic factors at play here. Heck, many have yet to decide if their light setups are 'doing the job'. Lighting, a basic and essential component that should be more or less clear to us.
I also want to add that none of the Repcal supplements indicate how often to use their product. Rather, the products simply states to use a "1:1 ratio during feedings". Allen, as you pointed out, balance is key. Sounds like we have strongly deviated from that with the more widely used Repcal ratio we have been using...
Cal Plus states to be used with every feeding. Sounds like we have our balance here, it is just a matter of how often to provide this for the given species, age, condition, etc, of chameleon. But I suppose it is possible that we
may need to add additional components (Vit A?, Supervite?), or make our own mix (Vit A+Supervite+Low/mid/hiD Supercal?) to cater to such
seemingly supplement sensitive animals as chameleons?..
I don't mean this long post as an argument to any degree, I am simply trying to better understand a care component that so many of us appear to really know nothing about, especially to any clinical degree. I plan to do much more research on the matter, and would appreciate any published documentation regarding nutritional requirements and uptake in insectivorous vertebrates if anyone out there knows of any papers or can give citations.
I will begin interning with a prominent exotics vet here is Salt Lake within the coming weeks. I am definitely looking forward to getting her input on all this.
I think I can speak for all of us Allen, that we highly appreciate you taking the time to provide some input on the matter. I look forward to having a better educated position on this matter.
Zach
Indeed Id guess you likely gutload very well 
