Calcium PLUS - how often?

[sandrachameleon]

.....a few things in regards to vitamin D, A, and calcium..... they all require balance... ....Just to clarify what I am saying, is that when you have a balanced ratio of vitamins, saying Too much A... is not correct and you would be more correct saying too much of "Everything" if that was indeed the case. .... there are a LOT of variables to consider.....

(bold added by Sandra)

just wanted to agree fully with these bits in particular.

For me, for my situation, the Repashy Calcium Plus product is "too much of everything" for daily use, more than is needed. So while I may not follow the Repashy label direction, just like I wouldnt use the rep-cal w/D3 product according to the label directions - but I would /do still use either product.

but then again, I successfully kept healthy long-lived breeding chameleons without any preformed vitamin A supplementation for a decade either, so I dont fall within the forum normal "rules" LOL

 

[Zach Valois]

Hi Folks,

Someone just pointed me to this thread. I am on the road right now, but want to start by pointing out a few things in regards to vitamin D, A, and calcium..... they all require balance... Saying there is too much Vitamin A in the product is not a statement based on science or fact. There is an optimum ratio of Vitamin A to Vitamin D that has shown to be quite consistent across the range of vertebrates.... that ratio is 10 to 1. Calcium Plus follows this rule to the letter. The levels of vitamin D3 in Calcium plus are WAY lower than Repcal and most other products. The levels of D3 in the product are balanced to the amount of elemental calcium in the product in order to provide enough of it to utilize the calcium in the product as efficiently as possible.

So, unless I am understanding this incorrectly, you are eluding to the fact that we are under-supplementing Vit A when using the general Rep-Cal set of supplements (that is Herptivite, once to twice a feeding once to twice a month)? Or at least, blindly dosing with regards to actual baseline ratios as can be compared to better known records of optimum vertebrate ratios.

Just to clarify what I am saying, is that when you have a balanced ratio of vitamins, saying Too much A... is not correct and you would be more correct saying too much of "Everything" if that was indeed the case. If you were supplementing only vitamin A, then the statement "too much vitamin A" could be quite correct. When fat soluble vitamins are out of balance, bad things can happen.. much worse than high levels of balanced vitamins, if that makes sense.

That makes perfect sense. However, when we feel the need (due to lack of knowledge), we resort to mixing of given set of supplements. In that case, which is most, how are we to know we have reached the appropriate balance?

Are there any published assessments of proper balanced ratios that we can base of off (however close to insectivorous reptiles we can be that is)? You mentioned that certain nutritional component ratios have shown to be consistent among various vertebrates, do you know of a published source that can provide us with even a basic outline of general ratios, as deemed appropriate by proper component to component ratios?

There are a million reasons that a group of chameleons can have issues, and I feel that blaming it on Vitamin A in my product is a big reach. As mentioned before, the clinical reports of Hypovitamintosis A in reptiles are nearly non existent. Last personal communication I had with Dr. Scott Stahl, he reported that had NEVER personally had a case, and that it was always something else.

I have heard and seen many people report cases or elude to issues surrounding too much or too little Vit A. You say that clinical reports for Hypovitamintosis A are nearly non-exsistant, is this fact true for clinical reports of Hypervitamintosis A?

Anytime someone brings this up, I cannot help but view such with (subjective) skepticism.

Like several of the people with experience on here have said, there are a LOT of variables to consider.....

This is absolutely true, however, I feel this fact does not merit too much consideration on the current subject as we are a large group of people qualitatively assessing the subject. Initially, it seems that such a diverse group of people using a relatively wide range of methods, numerically we would end up reporting results and viewing this matter with the key component surrounding lighting and vitamin/mineral supplementation. That does go on the assumption that these two topics are the key challenges in captive bred Veileds and Panthers, thus being the numerically dominant ailments presented in such forums. That of which may be a far reach of a statement within it self. I do know, as a herptoculturist of over 10 years, my knowledge of ACTUAL nutritional requirements of this nature are probably one of the most unclear topics surrounding herptoculture. In part, due to my negligence for detailed consideration and research of the topic I am sure.

I just want to clarify that I am not taking this as a bash on my products that I think needs defending. The OP did in fact say they liked the stuff... I just think the OP should keep an open mind and look at other possibilities when searching for an answer.

Well said, and I like where you are going with the subject. The fact of having a balanced ratio of whatever we may present to our animals makes sense and this sounds quite apparent in how your team formulated Calcium Plus. I look forward to learning more about this and how to better utilize the tools of nutrition you have placed at our hands. You are certainly helping us in the right direction. With that said, it intuitively seems that sticking with Cal Plus would be a better action than trying to qualitatively balance a mix of three different supplements (Repcal), with the only real basis being what HAS worked for people in the past.

The likelyhood of something like parasites or other illness imho are not something to dismiss.

Certainly not, and I hope no one would doubt this. Although, I consider this an extrinsic factor to some degree. For the same reason, as in captive bred animals, these factors being general anomalies.

If someone was reporting issues like this for montane species, I would be thinking differently about it. My post history on here shows that I have agreed that a regiment for these species is likely to require less supplementation...... not a different product, because it is about balance..... but less often.

Can you or anyone else explain just why montane species might require lower amounts of supplementation? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head might be due to lower metabolic rates, if that is indeed even true. It seems that general prey would be just as nutritionally balanced in more lush and or higher elevation communities. Perhaps this all comes together to account for the fact that such animals would eat less, thus having the same balance, but simply lower levels of actual intake.

Again, the BALANCE, makes a lot of sense. Thank you for outlining that.

But Veileds and Panthers I just do not see having issues from daily supplementation.

Are you stating this in the context of Calcium plus daily use?

The Kammers paved the way with their growout and breeding studies, but many others have reported great success after switching

.

Again, are you implying that the Kammers have indeed found a way to use Calcium Plus in an effective and fully functional manner?

Unfortunately, those of us (including myself), claiming to be having ill results this Calcium Plus are probably not relying on clinical results on any level whatsoever. Thus, making our conclusions rather superficial. There are simply too many other intrinsic factors at play here. Heck, many have yet to decide if their light setups are 'doing the job'. Lighting, a basic and essential component that should be more or less clear to us.


I also want to add that none of the Repcal supplements indicate how often to use their product. Rather, the products simply states to use a "1:1 ratio during feedings". Allen, as you pointed out, balance is key. Sounds like we have strongly deviated from that with the more widely used Repcal ratio we have been using...

Cal Plus states to be used with every feeding. Sounds like we have our balance here, it is just a matter of how often to provide this for the given species, age, condition, etc, of chameleon. But I suppose it is possible that we may need to add additional components (Vit A?, Supervite?), or make our own mix (Vit A+Supervite+Low/mid/hiD Supercal?) to cater to such seemingly supplement sensitive animals as chameleons?..


I don't mean this long post as an argument to any degree, I am simply trying to better understand a care component that so many of us appear to really know nothing about, especially to any clinical degree. I plan to do much more research on the matter, and would appreciate any published documentation regarding nutritional requirements and uptake in insectivorous vertebrates if anyone out there knows of any papers or can give citations.

I will begin interning with a prominent exotics vet here is Salt Lake within the coming weeks. I am definitely looking forward to getting her input on all this.

I think I can speak for all of us Allen, that we highly appreciate you taking the time to provide some input on the matter. I look forward to having a better educated position on this matter.

Zach

 

[Zach Valois]

(bold added by Sandra)


but then again, I successfully kept healthy long-lived breeding chameleons without any preformed vitamin A supplementation for a decade either, so I dont fall within the forum normal "rules" LOL

This is a big thing, the tried and true methods of you long term species keepers.... . .

 

[Zach Valois]

I am still curious on to how calcium itself interplays into nutritional needs.

Why use straight calcium so often, as many of us do?

Again, throwing off our balance. Here are what I feel are some of the most commonly used, most frequently applied supplements.

Calcium Plus - min 17%, max 20%
VS.
RepCal w/o D3 - min 35%, max 41%


Going back to the balance again, why does Cal Plus have less vitamins than Supervite, and Herptive? Or does it?


Compare the following guaranteed analysis for some of the most common products being used. Without understanding what converts to what and how, it seems striking as to how many additional components that Repcal Hertivite lists as oppose to Supervite or Cal Plus. Do the different manufacturers only list the components they feel relevant and needed to consider?

Also, what role and applications are of phosphorous? Why would Rep-cal note the line of a product that beneficially does not contain phosphorus? This is some what noted on the Rep-cal products, but I wouldn't mind some additional input.


Well, I guess I need to revisit how I supplement my various frog taxa too..

And simply for further reference and to build some degree of familiarity for us, here are some other supplements.

Repcal Herptivite:

Vitamins: /per Kg

Vit E - 5,500 IU
Choline - 4,400 mg
Niacin - 3,300 mg
Inositol - 2,530 mg
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C) - 2,200 mg
P-amino Benzoic Acid - 1,100 mg
Thiamine (Vit B1) - 880 mg
Riboflavin (Vit B2) - 550 mg
Vit B6 - 550 mg
Beta Carotene - 440 mg
d-Pantothenic Acid - 330 mg
Folic Acid - 33 mg
Menadione - 22 mg
Vit B12 - 3.85 mg
Biotin - .44 mg

Amino Acids: /per Kg

Alanine (1.23%) - 6,193 mg
Arginine (1.16%) - 5,808 mg
Aspartic Acid (2.05%) - 10, 263 mg
Cystenine (.54%) - 2,717 mg
Glutamic Acid (2.63%) - 13,167 mg
Glycine (.69%) - 3,487 mg
Histidine (.46%) - 2,321 mg
Isoleucine (1.08%) - 5,445 mg
Leucine (1.7%) - 8,514 mg
Lysine (1.27%) - 6,391 mg
Methionine (.75%) - 3,773 mg
Pheylalanine (1.18%) - 5,907 mg
Proline (.77%) - 3,872 mg
Serine (1.37%) - 6,864 mg
Threonine (.91%) 4,554 mg
Tryptophan (.33%) - 1,650 mg
Tyrosine (.79%) - 3,971 mg
Valine (1.39%) - 6,974 mg

Minerals: /per Kg

Cal min (4.4%) - 22,000 mg
Cal max (4.6%) - 23,000 mg
Phosphorus (2.2%) - 11,000 mg
Salt min (.26%) - 1,320 mg
Salt max (.27%) - 1,385 mg
Magnesium (.019%) - 99 mg
Potassium (.33%) - 1,650 mg
Sulfur (1.1%) - 5,500 mg
Copper - 165 ppm
Iodine - 38.5 ppm
Iron - 3,850 ppm
Manganese - 330 ppm
Zinc - 330

Repashy Supervite:

Vit A - 200,000 IU/lb
Vit D - 20,000 IU/lb
Vit E - 2,000 IU/lb
Vit K (metadione) - 30 mg/lb
Vit C (Ascorbic acid) - 2,500 mg/lb
Vit B1 (Thiamine HCL) - 40 mg/lb
Vit B2 (Riboflavin) - 70 mg/lb
Vit B5 (Patothenic acid) - 130 mg/lb
Niacin - 450 mg/lb
Vit B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) - 55 mg/lb
Vit B12 - .4 mg/lb
Folic Acid - 20 mg/lb
Biotin - 2 mg/lb
Choline - 5,000 mg/lb
Beta Carotene - 500 mg/lb


Rep-Cal Cal with VitD3:

Cal min - 35%
Cal max - 40%
Vit D3 - min 400,000 IU/Kg

Rep-Cal Cal w/o D3:

Cal min - 35%
Cal max - 41%

Miner-all Indoor:

Per Kilo
Cal min - 34%
Cal max - 36%
Vit D3 - 4,400.00 mg
Manganese - 453.66 mg
Zinc - 544.39 mg
Iron - 136.10 mg
Copper - 113.42 mg
Iodine - 36.29 mg
Cobalt - 3.63 mg
Magnesium - 453.66 mg
Selenium 11.023 mg

Repashy Calcium Plus:

Crude Protein min - 2%
Crude Fat min - .2%
Crude Fat max - .6%
Crude Fiber max - 1%
Moisture max - 8%
Ash max - 35%
Calcium min - 17%
Calcium max - 20%
Phosphorus min - 0.6%
Vit E min - 2,000 IU/lb
Vit D min - 20,000 IU/lb
Vit A min 200,000 IU/lb
Total Carotenoids min - 500 mg/lb

Repashy Supercal LoD:

Cal min - 30%
Cal max - 32%
Vit D3 - 10,000 IU/lb

Repashy Vitamin A Plus:

Vit A (retinyl acetate) - 2,000,000 IU/lb

 

[Zach Valois]

In conclusion to my previous posts on this, I want to stress the fact to less experienced keepers or those simply not interested in knowing actual numbers, although, should not overlook the key points of the thread, should also be careful not to 'over-think' the subject.

Going back to tried and true methods, or majority rule.

Fact of the matter is, we need to have a product and method of application that everyone down to a unexperienced soccer-mom buying a chameleon for her 13 year old child can use.

I know that all the local pet stores will suggest different supplements, ratios, and regimens. This is where the growth is especially needed on the subject.

I for one, just am more curious on the physiological processes and organic chemistry surrounding the matter. Lol.

 

[Hoj]

Fords first model A was tried and true but there is always something to be said for progress, even when there are bumps along the way.
JMO

 

[Kmw]

Fords first model A was tried and true but there is always something to be said for progress, even when there are bumps along the way.
JMO

Or else where would we be as society if we just always stuck to what "worked"

 

[sandrachameleon]

this is a bit off topic, but I'd really like to know all the other factors of how the Kammers keep their chams. There is no dobut they have been successfull, are reliable, and are using Repashy. but what do they feed their chams? how well can a big operation really gutload or provide variety of feeders? what lighting do they use? how old do their chameleons live (its one thing to have success for 3 years, than 7 years)? what temps? etc
I've asked these types of questions of other breeders, and have yet to get complete response - I have not yet asked the kammers but should do so! It might provide some greater understanding.

 

[volcano]

I can assure you that they have never completed a true scientific study and had it published. That rebuttal is superficial at best. It boils down to an easy sale and wholesale pricing. From your theory if they can jump off a bridge successfully, so should we and it just doesn't work that way.

 

[Hoj]

this is a bit off topic, but I'd really like to know all the other factors of how the Kammers keep their chams. There is no dobut they have been successfull, are reliable, and are using Repashy. but what do they feed their chams? how well can a big operation really gutload or provide variety of feeders? what lighting do they use? how old do their chameleons live (its one thing to have success for 3 years, than 7 years)? what temps? etc
I've asked these types of questions of other breeders, and have yet to get complete response - I have not yet asked the kammers but should do so! It might provide some greater understanding.

I see what you are getting at Sandra. I know that even great breeders out there for the most part do not provide the quality of care to their animals as many of us do ( simply due to shear numbers I would think ) and as such I could see where this could play a part.
Also I think for the most part alot of breeders suffer many more losses than we do, but it is not put out there. ( again in part to just shear numbers )
In no way am I saying the average keepers here is better than any of the top breeders, but that the stronger suppelements and scheduals may be working great for them as they are not gutloading and providing the variety that alot of us do.

 

[Allen Repashy]

I have heard and seen many people report cases or elude to issues surrounding too much or too little Vit A. You say that clinical reports for Hypovitamintosis A are nearly non-exsistant, is this fact true for clinical reports of Hypervitamintosis A?

I need to clarify a major error in my post. I have edited and corrected it. I was talking about very few cases of hypovitamintosis A when I meant to say Hypervitamintosis A...... Sorry about that!....

So to clarify.... evidence for vitamin A OVERDOSE is rarely clinically reported. Hypovitamintosis is quite commonly diagnosed.... so again, sorry about the flip flop of these important words.

Zach, you ask a lot of good questions about nutrition but I am afraid it would take me a LOT of time (that I don't have at the moment) to cite references and answer every question you have. I really wish I had the time to sit down and address all your questions, but you brought up so many different topics that I don't know where to start..... LOL I would be happy to whittle away at them when I have time... Hopefully others will join in and cover a lot of it and I can come back later and comment on what has been discussed.


There are just SO many variables between light, species, products, and routines, that there is no way to quantify things.

Back to balance for a second... I mentioned that the vitamins were balanced to the calcium levels.... but not that the calcium levels were set in the product based on the amount of phosphorous in a typical cricket, and the amount of dust that sticks to one.... For example, a cricket is about 1% phosphorous.... so if we want a dusted cricket to have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio, we can calculate how much calcium needs to be in the dust..... and then balance everything from there.

There are of course ranges that vitamins fall into in regards to their relationship with minerals..... Calcium plus is in the middle of the range for typical vertibrates.....

When we revisit potentially sensitive species, reducing the frequency of supplementation is a good way to do it, but I admit, it IS still a compromise because I am a firm believer of delivering everything in balance.... so it would be better to dust every feeding with a lower potency product than every other feeding so that we deliver the vitamin D and calcium together every time...

I have mentioned on here in the past, that given enough evidence, I could make a calcium plus product that had a lower level of everything in it, but we need quite a bit more long term feedback from keepers before we consider that to be necessary....

I am rambling on and need to get off the computer.......

Allen

 

[Allen Repashy]

I can assure you that they have never completed a true scientific study and had it published. That rebuttal is superficial at best.

Wow.....

First, the Kammers, nor I, claimed a scientific study was done..... Maybe you should read their press release. They did side by side growth and breeding trials by splitting clutches and using Calcium Plus on half the groups, and their regular regiment on the other.... over a course of three years.

It boils down to an easy sale and wholesale pricing. From your theory if they can jump off a bridge successfully, so should we and it just doesn't work that way.

I can guarantee you that for the Kammers, selling the products they were selling prior to mine, was much MORE profitable.... they got to sell three jars instead of one, and the margin on those products is much better than mine. They took a financial loss by switching to recommending my product........There motivation to promote the product was to increase the success of customers in their own husbandry..... following the directions of "dust at every feeding" is a lot easier than the necessary rotation of using the other products that was their previous protocol. Happy and successful customers create repeat business..... and this is where the Kammers return will help them grow their business.

Allen

 

[volcano]

Still no controlled experimentation. Therefore, all the credit isn't from supplementation. My guess is diet, lighting and husbandry plays a much larger role. No disrespect, but I want to make this clear.

 

[pssh]

this is a bit off topic, but I'd really like to know all the other factors of how the Kammers keep their chams. There is no dobut they have been successfull, are reliable, and are using Repashy. but what do they feed their chams? how well can a big operation really gutload or provide variety of feeders? what lighting do they use? how old do their chameleons live (its one thing to have success for 3 years, than 7 years)? what temps? etc
I've asked these types of questions of other breeders, and have yet to get complete response - I have not yet asked the kammers but should do so! It might provide some greater understanding.

I would love to know that as well! I would assume (maybe wrongfully) that they do not, for practical reasons, gutload the same way/to the same extent that some hobbyists (like myself) do. That would make a huge difference to the supplementation needs of the animals. Perhaps even to the point that their animals are just fine and benefit from using it daily where it would be an issue for the animals that receive more complete/varied nutrition.

 

[tkilgour]

I gutload and care for my babies properly and we have well over 75 chameleons here plus several dozen babies.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Back to balance for a second... I mentioned that the vitamins were balanced to the calcium levels.... but not that the calcium levels were set in the product based on the amount of phosphorous in a typical cricket, and the amount of dust that sticks to one.... For example, a cricket is about 1% phosphorous.... so if we want a dusted cricket to have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio, we can calculate how much calcium needs to be in the dust..... and then balance everything from there.

(bold added by Sandra)

I should hope most people dont only offer crickets - indeed that any one prey choice would make up no more than 20% of a chams diet (hopefully less than 20%). So perhaps if one is offering a bunch of bugs, not all of which are going to be similar to a "typical cricket", one perhaps doesnt need quite so much for supplements. And even what you gutload with might influence that typical cricket?

 

[sandrachameleon]

I gutload and care for my babies properly and we have well over 75 chameleons here plus several dozen babies.

I have no doubt of that Indeed Id guess you likely gutload very well

do you mind saying if you use repashy calcium plus, and if so is it dusted daily? or other products? or do you lean more to variety of gutloaded prey and less to supplements? or ?

 

[tkilgour]

I have no doubt of that Indeed Id guess you likely gutload very well

do you mind saying if you use repashy calcium plus, and if so is it dusted daily? or other products? or do you lean more to variety of gutloaded prey and less to supplements? or ?

I have used calcium plus and found it to be a great all in one supplement in moderation. It is certainly easier to use for new keepers. I have not dusted with it daily and I try to avoid daily dustings of any product. I focus mostly on diverse, high, quality gutloading and less supplementation. I always replace my UVB bulbs every 6 months and try to give my chams a daily dose of natural sun when possible. My chams get a huge variety of gutloaded prey. For example, they eat hornworms, silkworms, superworms, blue bottle flies, dubia and crickets.

 

[Hoj]

I have used calcium plus and found it to be a great all in one supplement in moderation. It is certainly easier to use for new keepers. I have not dusted with it daily and I try to avoid daily dustings of any product. I focus mostly on diverse, high, quality gutloading and less supplementation. I always replace my UVB bulbs every 6 months and try to give my chams a daily dose of natural sun when possible. My chams get a huge variety of gutloaded prey. For example, they eat hornworms, silkworms, superworms, blue bottle flies, dubia and crickets.

Oh I knew you wouldnt scrimp on the feeders Tom

 

[sandrachameleon]

I have used calcium plus and found it to be a great all in one supplement in moderation. It is certainly easier to use for new keepers. I have not dusted with it daily and I try to avoid daily dustings of any product. I focus mostly on diverse, high, quality gutloading and less supplementation. I always replace my UVB bulbs every 6 months and try to give my chams a daily dose of natural sun when possible. My chams get a huge variety of gutloaded prey. For example, they eat hornworms, silkworms, superworms, blue bottle flies, dubia and crickets.

I guessed as much
I like this approach too