Burn and Dehydration Questions

[abrunsen]

Hey All,

I have a couple questions about my new veiled cham for y'all.

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon - Male Veiled Chameleon. 3 months old. 1.5 weeks in my care.
• Handling - I've been trying to handle him for 30 minutes daily to get used to human interaction.
• Feeding - 3/4" crickets. He is eating 6-7 a day. I give them to him in the morning and he eats them throughout the day. Crickets are gut loaded with carrots, sweet potatoes, apples, oranges.
• Supplements - Minerall Calcium (Indoor): Every other day. RepCal Herptivite: Once a week.
• Watering - Pressurized hand sprayer. Spray the leaves heavily when I wake up, when I get home from work at 5, and before I go to bed. I also have two bar glasses placed throughout the enclosure if he wants to try and drink from them. I spray water droplets on them so he interacts with it. I have a little dripper sitting on top of my cage that drips down. I have not cut a hole in the screen to run tubing through yet. I would like to get him drinking from the drinking glass method, but he has been scared of the syringe (water in general) when I try and spray him. I have not seen him drinking.
• Fecal Description - Poops for me daily or every other day. Solid brown poop, pure white urates. Has pooped 4 times in my care. Not tested for parasites.
• History - No previous history

Cage Info:
• Cage Type - Mesh cage from DIY Cages. 2' x 2' x 4'
• Lighting - T5HO fixture from Pangea Reptile. Zoo Med ReptiSun 5.0 UVB T5 HO. They turn on at 7Am off at 7PM.
• Temperature - Basking spot is 84 and ambient temps are 71. I am using a 60w incandescent bulb with an 8" dome from Lowes. He is in my apartment so temperatures don't drop below 71 at night. Measuring with a probe thermometer.
• Humidity - 50% humidity levels. I use live plants and mist 2-3 times daily. Measuring with a hygrometer.
• Plants - Umbrella plant (although it's dying and needs to be replaced). Some type of ferns from Lowes. I am planning on replacing those plants with a hibiscus tree.
• Placement - Located in my bedroom. It is near a window. Low traffic area. Top of the cage is probably 8 feet from the floor.
• Location - North Carolina

Current Problem - I have had my little guy for a week and a half now. I come from snakes and this is the first lizard I have owned so this is all very new to me. I have a couple questions/issues.

For a while I was measuring temps with a temperature gun. It was giving me consistent readings of 85-87 when I pointed at the hot spot. He was in there for a week when I noticed he was gaping A LOT. I went out and bought a probe thermometer and it said his hot spot was actually closer to 98. I immediately replaced the bulb with a lower wattage and now it is at 84 and he has stopped gaping. First, I want to check if y'all think he has any thermal burns. I am specifically talking about the brown portions on his ridges, but from looking at other veiled photos it looks as that is normal. However, if you notice any other spots with thermal burns please let me know.

Secondly, when posting about the potential thermal burns on a different forum I was told he is dehydrated. However, as mentioned above, his 4 fecal samples with me the urates have all been pure white and his feces is solid.

I could use any advice y'all have about getting him to drink properly.

Thanks!

 

[Syreptyon]

Handling: You should not be handling him at all in the first couple of weeks. Coming to a new home is already a very stressful situation and you really need to give them a chance to acclimate before you start forcing interaction on them

Feeding: You should be feeding approximately twice as many crickets. In the first 6-ish months they grow fast and need a lot of nutrients. Aim for ~12 a day

Supplements: Herptivite should be used no more than twice a month. I'm not familiar with the other supplement you're using but make sure he gets both calcium without D3 and calcium with D3 - usually it's recommended to use without D3 at every feeding and with D3 once every other week (though this gets more complicated if you use a supplement that has both)

Hydration: The drinking glass method is very controversial and not supported by this forum. I highly recommend cutting that out of your husbandry. I have only ever seen this idea toted on the chameleon subreddit which is a dark, angry place full of recalcitrant mods who do not value the expertise of people with decades of experience studying chameleons in the captivity and in the wild. Still water and chameleons is a gigantic no-no. For your drinking problems, I wonder exactly how long you mist for. Needs to be at minimum 2 minutes to properly initiate their drinking response

Lighting: most people with veileds use 10.0's instead of 5.0's because they are native to harsher sun environments

Plants: If you want to keep a hibiscus tree indoors, you're going to need a very powerful grow light (or multiple). Most can only keep them alive outside

I think I already addressed the hydration, but from your pics I can't quite tell how his eyes look. Could be sunken in, could not be. It's difficult to tell, especially when chameleons don't like cameras. As for your burn question, his spines look all right to me! If you're concerned, it's always a good idea to raise the heat lamp several inches over the screen to make sure your cham can't get too close to it

 

[abrunsen]

First off, thank you so much for your detailed response, it is very helpful.


Handling: I will give him a break from handling for a couple weeks. I just want him to get used to human interaction so he doesn't get defensive when I am in his enclosure.

Feeding: Understood. I will up his food intake.

Supplements: Also understood. I have the ZooMed with D3 along with the Minerall with D3, but I switched to Minerall as I heard its the superior supplement due to the absence of phosphorus. I will purchase without D3 as well.

Hydration: I come from the Chameleon subreddit, so that is where I got that recommendation. I will cut it out. I agree with you about the mods being angry people. I have asked a couple questions on there and one mod in particular only has negative things to say and offers no solutions. Just makes new keepers feel bad. As for the misting I am doing it about 30 seconds, but that is because I am using a pressurized mister and if I did it for 2 minutes the enclosure would be drenched. Should I use one of those spray bottles that you see in a salon? My cham also runs in fear any time I start misting.

Another thing I am struggling with in regards to misting is that by misting that long each day I am overwatering my plants and it kills them. I already struggle to keep plants alive, so it's difficult not drowning the plant, but also misting enough.

Lighting: Am I ok using my 5.0 or do I need to switch to a 10.0?

The hydration concern came from an angry mod on reddit. He bashed me about my care and hydration, but then offered no solutions to my issues when I asked for help. As mentioned earlier his urates have been pure white the past 4 times for me. My understanding is that means he is getting the proper hydration, correct?

As for the burn question, the highest point he can reach to bask is 6-7 inches away from his bulb. I bought stuff to suspend the lamp if necessary but he doesn't ever climb up close to it anyway.

Thanks again!

 

[Syreptyon]

First off, thank you so much for your detailed response, it is very helpful.


Handling: I will give him a break from handling for a couple weeks. I just want him to get used to human interaction so he doesn't get defensive when I am in his enclosure.

Feeding: Understood. I will up his food intake.

Supplements: Also understood. I have the ZooMed with D3 along with the Minerall with D3, but I switched to Minerall as I heard its the superior supplement due to the absence of phosphorus. I will purchase without D3 as well.

Hydration: I come from the Chameleon subreddit, so that is where I got that recommendation. I will cut it out. I agree with you about the mods being angry people. I have asked a couple questions on there and one mod in particular only has negative things to say and offers no solutions. Just makes new keepers feel bad. As for the misting I am doing it about 30 seconds, but that is because I am using a pressurized mister and if I did it for 2 minutes the enclosure would be drenched. Should I use one of those spray bottles that you see in a salon? My cham also runs in fear any time I start misting.

Another thing I am struggling with in regards to misting is that by misting that long each day I am overwatering my plants and it kills them. I already struggle to keep plants alive, so it's difficult not drowning the plant, but also misting enough.

Lighting: Am I ok using my 5.0 or do I need to switch to a 10.0?

The hydration concern came from an angry mod on reddit. He bashed me about my care and hydration, but then offered no solutions to my issues when I asked for help. As mentioned earlier his urates have been pure white the past 4 times for me. My understanding is that means he is getting the proper hydration, correct?

As for the burn question, the highest point he can reach to bask is 6-7 inches away from his bulb. I bought stuff to suspend the lamp if necessary but he doesn't ever climb up close to it anyway.

Thanks again!

Well first of all, I'd like to say a big thank you to you for being so open to constructive criticism! And for filling out the form without having to be asked to. These are the signs of a truly dedicated chameleon keeper with the right attitude to last in the long-term in the hobby.

As for the misting thing, you can try to use a hand sprayer if you like, but you'll be in for a world of cramps haha. Most people either use a pressurized hand mister like you do or else a dedicated automatic misting system. I actually do both. Unfortunately, soaking the cage is just part of the process! This is why drainage is considered rather important for cham cages. Overwatering the plants is indeed a problem, but you can get around this by other physically placing something over the plant pots to redirect the water or else you can re-pot the plants in super well-draining soil (this is what I like to do).

For lighting, you're probably all right with the 5.0 for now, but I would recommend upgrading at least by the time the bulb you currently have expires.

That's such a bummer about the subreddit.... I'm a huuuuuge redditor, like all day every day redditor, and that sub is such a disappointment. Every now and then they'll brigade us here at the forums when people criticize them. As long as the urates are white, I honestly thing you have nothing to worry about!

 

[Kaizen]

Handling: You should not be handling him at all in the first couple of weeks. Coming to a new home is already a very stressful situation and you really need to give them a chance to acclimate before you start forcing interaction on them

Feeding: You should be feeding approximately twice as many crickets. In the first 6-ish months they grow fast and need a lot of nutrients. Aim for ~12 a day

Supplements: Herptivite should be used no more than twice a month. I'm not familiar with the other supplement you're using but make sure he gets both calcium without D3 and calcium with D3 - usually it's recommended to use without D3 at every feeding and with D3 once every other week (though this gets more complicated if you use a supplement that has both)

Hydration: The drinking glass method is very controversial and not supported by this forum. I highly recommend cutting that out of your husbandry. I have only ever seen this idea toted on the chameleon subreddit which is a dark, angry place full of recalcitrant mods who do not value the expertise of people with decades of experience studying chameleons in the captivity and in the wild. Still water and chameleons is a gigantic no-no. For your drinking problems, I wonder exactly how long you mist for. Needs to be at minimum 2 minutes to properly initiate their drinking response

Lighting: most people with veileds use 10.0's instead of 5.0's because they are native to harsher sun environments

Plants: If you want to keep a hibiscus tree indoors, you're going to need a very powerful grow light (or multiple). Most can only keep them alive outside

I think I already addressed the hydration, but from your pics I can't quite tell how his eyes look. Could be sunken in, could not be. It's difficult to tell, especially when chameleons don't like cameras. As for your burn question, his spines look all right to me! If you're concerned, it's always a good idea to raise the heat lamp several inches over the screen to make sure your cham can't get too close to it

I’m really interested in what you had to say about misting times and drinking responses. I didn’t know that a misting needed to last x amount of time in order to induce drinking. Do you have a source for this? I’d love to read more. If not, thanks anyways, it was interesting.

 

[Syreptyon]

I’m really interested in what you had to say about misting times and drinking responses. I didn’t know that a misting needed to last x amount of time in order to induce drinking. Do you have a source for this? I’d love to read more. If not, thanks anyways, it was interesting.

I don't have a peer-reviewed article to link you, but it is a known thing in the community! The dripping and motility of water encourages the drinking response. In the wild, they typically hide from rain (according to Petr Necas), so in captivity they also tend to recoil from water at first. Chams are grumpy and hate most changes to their environmental equilibrium, so they need some warming up in order to get them to drink (though of course this varies cham to cham)

 

[Kaizen]

Super interesting! Thanks a million; I think I’ll run some impromptu trials and see if I can get some consistent data here. Thanks again!

 

[Syreptyon]

Super interesting! Thanks a million; I think I’ll run some impromptu trials and see if I can get some consistent data here. Thanks again!

You're going to need a large sample size of individual chameleons if you want to do statistics

 

[Kaizen]

You’re absolutely right, but some anecdotes turn out to be true. I just posted a thread, and cited you as my inspiration. Have a look, and thanks again.

 

[alphakenc]

Well first of all, I'd like to say a big thank you to you for being so open to constructive criticism! And for filling out the form without having to be asked to. These are the signs of a truly dedicated chameleon keeper with the right attitude to last in the long-term in the hobby.

Very well said.

 

[Kaizen]

Here, here!