Bringing the hot shower to them.

[chameleonowner32]

Maybe I’m not clear, but where does it say in that article that he’s using heat ? It is my understanding of the paragraph you provided. Showering. In other words putting the animal in into a constant state of drip. Not using steam. Where would steam naturally occur in a Chamaeleons environment ?

The part about the whole shower method, does yours have fog or steam come off of cold water? Mine does not.

 

[crosscutts]

The point you are missing, the so called steam is 85°f vs the cooler fog at night, this was done during the daytime.

Again, I’m just asking not being argumentative, but where does steam naturally occur in their environment? I understand what you’re talking about but I’ve had the same results by adding 90% fogging after lights out when the temperatures are cool literally 7 o’clock at night until 5 o’clock in the morning . Which is more like a natural environment as opposed to. Steam at 85°. I’m more than willing to listen to your results. But I’m also thinking of the animals , I know in high humidity during the day it is not difficult to breathe . I also know that when I go into esteemed shower. With high humidity and high temperatures it’s very difficult to breathe so all I’m trying to do is understand the application. Seems it safer to do it with cooler conditions as opposed to steam. I don’t know if I’m right or wrong. Just making suggestions.

 

[crosscutts]

The part about the whole shower method, does yours have fog or steam come off of cold water? Mine does not.

No, but I do know that humidity does rise in the shower method I’m describing . I can literally show you on my Govee . The misting times. My cages cycle that the humidity rises without the heat.

 

[chameleonowner32]

Again, I’m just asking not being argumentative, but where does steam naturally occur in their environment? I understand what you’re talking about but I’ve had the same results by adding 90% fogging after lights out when the temperatures are cool literally 7 o’clock at night until 5 o’clock in the morning . Which is more like a natural environment as opposed to. Steam at 85°. I’m more than willing to listen to your results. But I’m also thinking of the animals , I know in high humidity during the day it is not difficult to breathe . I also know that when I go into esteemed shower. With high humidity and high temperatures it’s very difficult to breathe so all I’m trying to do is understand the application. Seems it safer to do it with cooler conditions as opposed to steam. I don’t know if I’m right or wrong. Just making suggestions.

Again, not a typical situation. The fogger is being built right now, I'm not arguing anything about how to regularly hydrate. In situations like this where the normal method was not available.

 

[chameleonowner32]

No, but I do know that humidity does rise in the shower method I’m describing . I can literally show you on my Govee . The misting times. My cages cycle that the humidity rises without the heat.

My cage during the day is 50%, at night around 60df it's 65ish% humidity.

 

[crosscutts]

My cage during the day is 50%, at night around 60df it's 65ish% humidity.

Understandable , my cage is ranged from 40 to 50 during the day! And 90 to 100% humidity at night using my foggers and misters . And I’ve been quite successful with using foggers in emergency situations. The only difference is I use them during the night schedule and never try to apply heat. I have done that in the past. The problem is you need air circulation with heated temperatures . And yes, I’ve lost Chamaeleons from doing it with stagnant air and heat and humidity. But my current application literally rehydrates an animal without any stress . My Chamaeleons barely drink, if at all. And only after conversations with Petar and Bill did I come to these conclusions . I wish you the best of luck, and please don’t leave the site just because of a conversation. I think this is information. Everybody needs to hear. Good or bad I look forward to your success. Hopefully you will update us as to how it works out for you. Have an awesome day.

 

[Steve A]

And also, a shower can help a Uri.

I have the temp probe right at where the humidity comes through the cage, it's at 85°f which oustalets can tolerate up to 90- even 92ish. I'm well aware on night drop Temps, it's at 63°f at night. You're missing the the point here though. Moisture rich feeders are on the way. This is a wild caught chameleon to start with, that I've had under my care for 2 days. So I need to ensure he has a swift less stressful recovery. This is not like keeping your normal veiled or panther. If you're not aware, theses guys are from forest as well as desert. They require a deep hydration quite frequently because of they're size. It's definitely not my first rodeo keeping these.

I wonder if this is really working as you think it is. And please don't take any offense. I'm not attacking, I am just reading what you're saying here and here me out.....

You're measuring humidity levels at the bottom of the enclosure (based on the picture you provided, it looks like your humidifier is blowing it's fog into the bottom of the enclosure) where your fog is entering the enclosure. This doesn't seem right. Of course, you're going to get really high humidity levels at the point of entrance.

Where you probably should be measuring is as close to where your chameleon is when this fogging is taking place. The reason for this is because I have multiple sensors in my enclosure and they will all read differently even during fogging ( my enclosure is also 36"x24"x48", so a bigger size will certainly have a higher chance of different levels throughout the enclosure).... simply because (especially in an open screened enclosure) the fog isn't contained, and the enclosure is aired out well (which is a good thing unless you have severe issues reaching proper humidity levels). And as you get lower into the enclosure (when lights are on), temps lower, and humidity rises, gradually. Especially depending on the plants in the enclosure, and how that's all setup.

So... while the humidity is higher at the point of entrance, your humidity is likely only affecting the area that's actually being hit by the fog (at least for the most part), and not so much where your chameleon is physically hanging out. This is why our foggers are always pushing fog from the top of the enclosure, not the bottom. If we placed them at the bottom, our chameleons would never gain any benefit from it and wouldn't be affected by it at all most likely (good or bad). Unless of course, our chameleons were sleeping or hanging out around the bottom while the fogging is occurring

Your fog looks like it's not rising. as it should be. Applying fog from these machines, I've only ever seen the fog fall. Which leads me to believe that unless you have this unit pushing the fog above your chameleon, or at least at the same level, hitting your chameleon horizontally, it's likely not even doing anything in this situation.

I also do wonder why you need to quickly hydrate. Even if you're personally catching these chameleons out of the wild, what is really the purpose of that? If you set up your husbandry properly, your chameleon should be getting proper hydration. I don't see why you would need some kind of significant boost.

I'm assuming of course, but if you're wild catching them yourself, you're likely not transporting them very far. Unless, you're having them shipped to you from someone else catching them in the wild? But even in that case, proper husbandry should be sufficient. I don't see how overloading hydration would help the chameleon be less stressed. That significant change in their life is going to be stressful initially regardless.

side note: On top of it hitting the bottom, it looks like in your picture, it's not even pointed in the middle of your enclosure, but the fog is only hitting a bottom corner of the enclosure. Which further leads me to believe that this humidifier isn't really doing much of anything for the rest of the enclosure, above where it's actually hitting.

Regarding my entire thought process on the humidifier, Vicks specifically even recommends placing these humidifiers HIGH not low (again likely because the fog will fall but won't likely affect anything above it much), and centered in a room as much as possible.

 

[chameleonowner32]

I wonder if this is really working as you think it is. And please don't take any offense. I'm not attacking, I am just reading what you're saying here and here me out.....

You're measuring humidity levels at the bottom of the enclosure (based on the picture you provided, it looks like your humidifier is blowing it's fog into the bottom of the enclosure) where your fog is entering the enclosure. This doesn't seem right. Of course, you're going to get really high humidity levels at the point of entrance.

Where you probably should be measuring is as close to where your chameleon is when this fogging is taking place. The reason for this is because I have multiple sensors in my enclosure and they will all read differently even during fogging ( my enclosure is also 36"x24"x48", so a bigger size will certainly have a higher chance of different levels throughout the enclosure).... simply because (especially in an open screened enclosure) the fog isn't contained, and the enclosure is aired out well (which is a good thing unless you have severe issues reaching proper humidity levels). And as you get lower into the enclosure (when lights are on), temps lower, and humidity rises, gradually. Especially depending on the plants in the enclosure, and how that's all setup.

So... while the humidity is higher at the point of entrance, your humidity is likely only affecting the area that's actually being hit by the fog (at least for the most part), and not so much where your chameleon is physically hanging out. This is why our foggers are always pushing fog from the top of the enclosure, not the bottom. If we placed them at the bottom, our chameleons would never gain any benefit from it and wouldn't be affected by it at all most likely (good or bad). Unless of course, our chameleons were sleeping or hanging out around the bottom while the fogging is occurring

Your fog looks like it's not rising. as it should be. Applying fog from these machines, I've only ever seen the fog fall. Which leads me to believe that unless you have this unit pushing the fog above your chameleon, or at least at the same level, hitting your chameleon horizontally, it's likely not even doing anything in this situation.

I also do wonder why you need to quickly hydrate. Even if you're personally catching these chameleons out of the wild, what is really the purpose of that? If you set up your husbandry properly, your chameleon should be getting proper hydration. I don't see why you would need some kind of significant boost.

I'm assuming of course, but if you're wild catching them yourself, you're likely not transporting them very far. Unless, you're having them shipped to you from someone else catching them in the wild? But even in that case, proper husbandry should be sufficient. I don't see how overloading hydration would help the chameleon be less stressed. That significant change in their life is going to be stressful initially regardless.

side note: On top of it hitting the bottom, it looks like in your picture, it's not even pointed in the middle of your enclosure, but the fog is only hitting a bottom corner of the enclosure. Which further leads me to believe that this humidifier isn't really doing much of anything for the rest of the enclosure, above where it's actually hitting.

Regarding my entire thought process on the humidifier, Vicks specifically even recommends placing these humidifiers HIGH not low (again likely because the fog will fall but won't likely affect anything above it much), and centered in a room as much as possible.


View attachment 347641

View attachment 347642

Every single point on this is incorrect. My hygrometer is at the very top of the cage where the airflow exits. The humidifier is blowing from bottom up exiting through the top. I appreciate the information you gathered from a picture though.

 

[Steve A]

Understandable , my cage is ranged from 40 to 50 during the day! And 90 to 100% humidity at night using my foggers and misters . And I’ve been quite successful with using foggers in emergency situations. The only difference is I use them during the night schedule and never try to apply heat. I have done that in the past. The problem is you need air circulation with heated temperatures . And yes, I’ve lost Chamaeleons from doing it with stagnant air and heat and humidity. But my current application literally rehydrates an animal without any stress . My Chamaeleons barely drink, if at all. And only after conversations with Petar and Bill did I come to these conclusions . I wish you the best of luck, and please don’t leave the site just because of a conversation. I think this is information. Everybody needs to hear. Good or bad I look forward to your success. Hopefully you will update us as to how it works out for you. Have an awesome day.

Yeah I think it's telling when our chameleons aren't drinking. And as Bill says, drinking here or there to supplement isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's still likely a sign that they 'need' it.

I've had Spike since July and not once have I witnessed him drinking water. And he's in excellent health. I also watch Spike ALL day while I am at work, every day, unless I am home.

I don't mis or fog during the day. Humidity is around 45-55% (71-73f) during the day at the top branches, and as you go lower into his enclosure, temps drop into the 60s and humidity rises. At night I drop temps down to low to mid 60s, and humidity spikes at 7:30pm (mister for 2 minutes) into the 80s (specifically at Spikes resting spot... but it varies throughout the enclosure), fluctuates from 60s-80s until 1am when the fogger turns on and another 2 min misting session occurs.

Then his humidity (again where he sleeps... .elsewhere in the enclosure is ALL different) rises into the 80s-100% and stays within that range all night into late morning as temps rise after lights are on again. I also do another 2 min misting at 6:30am.

 

[Steve A]

Every single point on this is incorrect. My hygrometer is at the very top of the cage where the airflow exits. The humidifier is blowing from bottom up exiting through the top. I appreciate the information you gathered from a picture though.

Can you provide a video?

I mean everyone else in the entire world doing this seems to be using their foggers from the top going down. I'd love to see a video of your hygrometer near your chameleon and at the top of the cage while you're doing this fogging and compared to the bottom.

I mean sure it's just a picture but I am not just using a picture, I am using facts. And fact is, that even the manufacturer of the unit you're using say you can't use it on the floor because it won't humidity the room that way. Because.........as I said it falls, it does not rise.

I'm genuinely just curious. If I can learn something from this that would be great. But again... this doesn't sound right at all.

You can literally see how fog is moving. And with these machines its always down.

Unless I misread what you said here, you did say you're measuring from where the fog is entering the enclosure. But I guess that's a false assumption that the hygrometer is ALSO there. That's what I was assuming.

 

[Steve A]

I'll even share a video of how a fogger works. Not trying to be argumentative but I've run plenty of tests and fwiw I've absolutely nailed hydration for my chameleon.

 

[chameleonowner32]

I'll even share a video of how a fogger works. Not trying to be argumentative but I've run plenty of tests and fwiw I've absolutely nailed hydration for my chameleon.

At this point, you're just D1$$ Head. This forum is Bul!SH1T nowadays.

 

[crosscutts]

Just for example 40% humidity in the first shot 90% + in the second, cool hydration

 

[Steve A]

At this point, you're just D1$$ Head. This forum is Bul!SH1T nowadays.

Sir I am literally trying to understand where you're coming from. I replied to you with the utmost respect and you immediately lashed out at me, as you have everyone else.

If showing an example of what I am talking about and why I think your setup isn't doing what you think then I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel that way. I am curious about what you're doing and simply would like to see it for myself because I don't think it's doing what you're saying it's doing.

I think if it were, your chameleon would likely be getting sick as others have mentioned. I don't think anyone is out to get you here. We're all just learning, sharing info, experiences, and love chameleons.

Lets not get all personal and hurt over sharing information.

 

[Andrew1283]

When a scientist makes a claim they get blasted with criticism and questions from peers regarding their means and methods of investigation and gathering data/evidence to support that claim. I’m assuming you’re not a scientist. I am not. But we are all here to discover truth for the proper husbandry of chameleons. You made a claim… a steam humidifier is a good alternative to hot showers for emergency hydration. I believe a cool fogger flowing down into the enclosure and directly on your chameleon would be more efficient and safer. They seem to gravitate toward fog when they need it.

 

[Andrew1283]

I need better hydration in my enclosure. My humidity level has dropped to 27% at night in the room and 65% in the enclosure. But it dries out quick after the mist king turns off. I’ll step up my misting and get a cool fogger. Again, no one is perfect.

 

[Steve A]

When a scientist makes a claim they get blasted with criticism and questions from peers regarding their means and methods of investigation and gathering data/evidence to support that claim. I’m assuming you’re not a scientist. I am not. But we are all here to discover truth for the proper husbandry of chameleons. You made a claim… a steam humidifier is a good alternative to hot showers for emergency hydration. I believe a cool fogger flowing down into the enclosure and directly on your chameleon would be more efficient and safer. They seem to gravitate toward fog when they need it.

And sure enough, during a few 'transitions' with the seasons, when Spike seems to want more hydration while sleeping, he goes from the back right of his enclosure, to the very middle right behind the big pothos in the center of the enclosure, where the fog physically lands directly on him. Usually he hangs out right outside of it.

He's done this a couple times but always goes back to his normal spot after I get it re-adjusted.

 

[MissSkittles]

At this point, you're just D1$$ Head. This forum is Bul!SH1T nowadays.

I’m sorry that you feel this way and that this is the best way you feel to express your frustration. I have been looking forward to seeing and hearing more about your Oustelet’s as that is a species that is almost never seen currently.
Your post caught my attention because you said ”hot shower”. If you, with you wisdom and experience want to put your chameleon in a shower to hydrate them, that is up to you. If you want to discuss and debate the benefits of that with other experienced members, please go right ahead! That is one of the reasons for the forum existing. However, it is the word hot that grabbed the attention of me and others and what I am primarily concerned about. We have many inexperienced keepers lurking or members who might read this as being it’s okay to put their 1 month old sickly Petco veiled chameleon in a hot shower and the poor baby ends up basically boiled. Really, unless the animal is truly severely dehydrated I would not advise putting it in a shower of any temperature. However, I am not breaking ground in exploring new ways of husbandry or in any way going beyond just being content keeping my much loved veiled and panther chameleons. I do my best to help new chameleon keepers and that is very often the majority of postings. There are members who hail from across the world and who English is a challenge for them. There are young children, who, some very sadly lack any parental support. These are the keepers and their chameleons who I (and some others) feel a need to look out for. Whether you like it or not, we do need to be cautious about what we say and how we say it. I am not trying to attack you, nor do I have any other negative feelings or intents. I am just trying to look out for the many Rangos and Pascals out there.

 

[Andrew1283]

Welp…on to the next post

 

[Steve A]

I need better hydration in my enclosure. My humidity level has dropped to 27% at night in the room and 65% in the enclosure. But it dries out quick after the mist king turns off. I’ll step up my misting and get a cool fogger. Again, no one is perfect.

***Never mind, I read this wrong lol