bringing cham to vet without permit in ma

[stinax182]

I'd like to bring my veiled chameleon to a vet because something is wrong but i do not have a permit to own him....he is illegal in ma. does anyone know the consequences of bringing him to the vet without a permit? will they treat him and take him away from me? will i be fined? should i just find a vet in ct?

 

[Carlton]

I'd like to bring my veiled chameleon to a vet because something is wrong but i do not have a permit to own him....he is illegal in ma. does anyone know the consequences of bringing him to the vet without a permit? will they treat him and take him away from me? will i be fined? should i just find a vet in ct?

Why don't you have a permit? They are usually simple and not expensive to get (but I don't know the law in your state). Did you get him out of state and just not check the exotics laws before bringing him home? Most states have some way to permit exotics owned by someone who moved from a state where they were legally purchased. It might be simplest to find out and get the thing.

Every state and every vet will have their own policy about this. Most likely the vet has no authority under state law to take him or fine you. They might be obligated to report that you have an "illegal" animal but may not choose to. They may be able to help you solve the permit problem if they have a contact for the right office.

 

[stinax182]

my brother owned him in ct and moved here and dumped him with me. i had no idea they were illegal then and nor did my brother. I'm just finding out recently because I've been asking around because he is sick and a pet store told me they are illegal :x thank you for replying, i will just call around or if worse comes to worse i will go to a vet in ct where they are legal.

 

[stinax182]

and i will definitely look into getting a permit......i thought i needed something more like a license which would require a class or something, haha.

 

[Carlton]

and i will definitely look into getting a permit......i thought i needed something more like a license which would require a class or something, haha.

Depending on the state, their reasons for requiring a permit varies. For some, its a way to track how many exotic pets are present. For others its a way to regulate exotic breeder activity, or restrict the number of animals they can sell. It can be a source of revenue for inspection agencies. It can be a way to check up on people who own odd animals to make sure they are providing humane conditions and are not a threat to the public (you know, huge constrictors or venomous critters). Lots of reasons...some more valid than others. I had to have permits for my birds and chams in NJ, but it was really simple to do. When I bought my cham they submitted my permit application right at the shop. I think it cost about $7.

People often misunderstand...a cham may not be illegal in your state as long as you have the proper permit. Same idea as a state requiring that dogs have current rabies vaccinations and licenses.

While getting permits is a hassle, if herp owners don't comply with the law they give the rest of us a bad rap which leads to bans.

 

[sandrachameleon]

if the chameleon is sick and needs vet assistance, I assume the potential consequences of not having a permit would be outweighed by the potential consequences of not taking the animals to the vet promptly.

I suggest you call the vets, be honest about the situation, try to make an appointment

 

[justjumpit621]

Just bring him up here to NH, or bring him to "the odd pet vet" in south weymouth and just say you are from NH I brought my veiled there a long long time ago, that is when I found out it was illegal to own them. The vet there is very nice though and treats chameleons. That law is bogus anyway.

 

[fluxlizard]

Can't believe some of the laws in some of the states... Geez.

 

[Eggimations]

It's to protect people from the dangerous nature of chameleons. So far, 0 people have been killed by chameleons. This is extremely frightening, because a lack of fatalities obviously means they're conspiring to take over the world.

 

[Carlton]

That law is bogus anyway.

Whether you think its "bogus" or not, it happens to be a law and is enforceable and there are consequences for ignoring it! Every time a herp keeper decides to ignore a law because they don't like it the rest of the herp keeping community gets targeted. The way to get rid of such laws is to prove they are UNNECESSARY!

 

[nightanole]

Wildlife Requiring a DFW Permit

Any species in this category requires a DFW permit and may not be kept as a pet. Examples of animals requiring a permit include endangered and threatened wildlife, venomous snakes, crocodilians, monitor lizards, monkeys, African servals, sugar gliders, skunks and raccoons. Permits for animals in this category are issued only for certain scientific, educational, commercial, or other specific reasons. Permits are not issued for keeping these species as pets. Permits in this category are issued only for certain scientific, educational, commercial, or other specific reasons. . Applicants must be able to demonstrate that they are actively engaged in the activity for which they have applied for or received a permit. (See 321 CMR 2.12 ) The only exception is for a prohibited animal for which there is proof it was in the owner's possession within Massachusetts before July 1, 1980. This exemption is granted only for the life of that particular animal.


And the law is very detailed on "reptiles".No chams can be classified as pets.

Very odd law, i could see maybe a city limit law, but state wide?

 

[Carlton]

Wildlife Requiring a DFW Permit

Any species in this category requires a DFW permit and may not be kept as a pet. Examples of animals requiring a permit include endangered and threatened wildlife, venomous snakes, crocodilians, monitor lizards, monkeys, African servals, sugar gliders, skunks and raccoons. Permits for animals in this category are issued only for certain scientific, educational, commercial, or other specific reasons. Permits are not issued for keeping these species as pets. Permits in this category are issued only for certain scientific, educational, commercial, or other specific reasons. . Applicants must be able to demonstrate that they are actively engaged in the activity for which they have applied for or received a permit. (See 321 CMR 2.12 ) The only exception is for a prohibited animal for which there is proof it was in the owner's possession within Massachusetts before July 1, 1980. This exemption is granted only for the life of that particular animal.


And the law is very detailed on "reptiles".No chams can be classified as pets.

Very odd law, i could see maybe a city limit law, but state wide?

So maybe I'm reading this wrong, but chameleons don't fit the quoted section. It lists monitors, crocodilians, T&E species, etc. They are obviously trying to prohibit the big bad dangerous or Lacey Act species here. Isn't there another classification that applies to other reptiles INCLUDING chams, the more typical pets like cbb leopard geckos, anoles, cornsnakes, beardies? These may well be species for which you CAN and MUST have a permit issued in order for them to be legal. The "pet" classification may not be the issue.

 

[Chameleon Creator]

What is the law in Illinois on this? This is the first time I am hearing the are illegal without a permit

 

[broderp]

Wow, I won't complain about Ohio dog licenses any more...

This is crazy. Chams illegal?

 

[Carlton]

Wow, I won't complain about Ohio dog licenses any more...

This is crazy. Chams illegal?

NO, not necessarily. What is illegal in some states is owning a cham without the proper permit. If you own a dog and don't license it THAT'S what is illegal, not the dog itself. The license fee is a source of revenue that may fund animal protection and inspection services. It is also a way to track and document that dogs are vaccinated for rabies.

Please research your own state laws regarding owning exotic reptiles to be sure. Some states are trying to ban ownership of exotic animals completely. Other states will let you have certain types of harmless exotics as long as you get the proper permit (in a way, a license). Does this make it clearer?

 

[Pachytriton]

NO, not necessarily. What is illegal in some states is owning a cham without the proper permit. If you own a dog and don't license it THAT'S what is illegal, not the dog itself. The license fee is a source of revenue that may fund animal protection and inspection services.

Please research your own state laws regarding owning exotic reptiles to be sure. Some states are trying to ban ownership of exotic animals completely. Other states will let you have certain types of harmless exotics as long as you get the proper permit (in a way, a license). Does this make it clearer?

"Examples of animals requiring a permit include endangered and threatened wildlife"
This certainly includes chameleons, since they are all on CITES.

 

[Carlton]

"Examples of animals requiring a permit include endangered and threatened wildlife"
This certainly includes chameleons, since they are all on CITES.

This is NOT correct. There are hundreds of species listed on CITES but not all are considered endangered or threatened. There are different categories (called appendices) under which species are listed. Internationally-recognized Threatened or Endangered Species are listed and managed much more tightly (such as tigers, rhinos, vulnerable Hawaiian plants and birds, some insects, etc) from the majority of plants and animals for which trade is permitted. Based on the degree of threat from collection and on international negotiations, the status of a species can change from one appendix to another. Chameleons as a group (not specific to species) are NOT "threatened" or "endangered" according to CITES, but their trade is regulated and tracked.

Just to add to the confusion, each US state can also create their own list of native species they consider threatened or endangered. A person living in that state would not be able to own any of these without a very specific purpose such as research or captive breeding for species recovery programs.

 

[broderp]

NO, not necessarily. What is illegal in some states is owning a cham without the proper permit. If you own a dog and don't license it THAT'S what is illegal, not the dog itself. The license fee is a source of revenue that may fund animal protection and inspection services. It is also a way to track and document that dogs are vaccinated for rabies.

Please research your own state laws regarding owning exotic reptiles to be sure. Some states are trying to ban ownership of exotic animals completely. Other states will let you have certain types of harmless exotics as long as you get the proper permit (in a way, a license). Does this make it clearer?

That's my point. I find it crazy that they would require a permit for such a small animal. I see it on the same level as owning a hamster (which my kids do have) and having to pay a fee to own them. Dog's and cats I see as there are always irresponsible owners who let their dog breed and don't take responsibilities for their actions. Just visit the dog pound and you will know what I mean.

The last time I checked, there wasn't a "chameleon pound" overflowing with abandoned chams from irresponsible owners. That's just my opinion based on where I live.

 

[fluxlizard]

Just to add to the confusion, each US state can also create their own list of native species they consider threatened or endangered. A person living in that state would not be able to own any of these without a very specific purpose such as research or captive breeding for species recovery programs.

My state is like this and I don't like it.

Here is why-

I'm allowed to keep up to 5 individuals of most native herps as pets. No more. If, however, Heaven forbid, I breed one of those species (lets use corn snakes as an example because a lot of corn snakes are kept and presumably bred illegally in my state- when I asked about this the authorities told me to report pet shops I knew that were selling them- I told them to just go look in any pet shop) I instantly have more than 5 individuals and have broken the law. I'm not a snake person, but most corn snake keepers in my state ignore the law, or get a permit which requires begging some official for the "privilege" of pursuing one's happiness and agreeing to have inspections conducted (usually of their home as that is where they keep THE KING'S snakes) at any time.

I am interested however in turtles, salamanders and of course lizards. I could take box turtles if I wanted, for instance, and breed them. It would reduce the demand for the wild caught adults in the pet trade and help protect the species in the wild as a whole. But I don't because of this law. Or here's a silly one that I wouldn't do but could do- how about red spotted newts? I could breed these by the zillions, and sell as pets or fishing bait. Or our local eastern painted turtles which are just gorgeous. How terrible would that be?

Here's the kicker- I can't breed these and sell them, but there is a very high bag limit if I wanted to collect them from the wild to use as fishing bait or food (in the case of the turtles). So for example- if I'm going fishing I can go out and collect something like 50 (I forget for sure the exact number but it's pretty high like this) newts every day and stick them on a hook and kill them. But if I've got 6 in my aquarium I'm a law breaker. Or heaven forbid if I take 5 and turn them into 500 from breeding them and no more than the original 5 are removed from the wild, I'm still a law breaker. With turtles- I can't breed them and make more, but if I want to eat them I can take more than 5 from the wild for that purpose. (again I forget the limit for this purpose but I think it was something like 20 a day!) And I can do it every day if I want. Or if I'm a stupid kid who keeps loosing/killing his box turtles I can keep going out and finding more and bringing them home as long as I don't have more than 5 in a cage at any one time.

It makes no sense to me and it has more to do with control than conservation...

Our local fence swifts are beautiful (orange colored) and so are our local toads (same color- its the color of our clay dirt, plus our local toads are HUGE). I'd be on both those species in a heart beat for breeding as well as box turtles if it wasn't for these laws... Meanwhile- all the fields I used to explore and find box turtles and toads and big salamanders in as a kid have been turned into walmart, lowes, home-depot, target, etc...

 

[sandrachameleon]

Whether you think its "bogus" or not, it happens to be a law and is enforceable and there are consequences for ignoring it! Every time a herp keeper decides to ignore a law because they don't like it the rest of the herp keeping community gets targeted. The way to get rid of such laws is to prove they are UNNECESSARY!

well stated.