Bioactive, where you at petr!

[jamest0o0]

And we forgot, isn't It more natural for a chameleon to look at the ground and see leaves/soil? If that doesn't matter(and I'm not necessarily saying it does, though imo it makes them feel more 'at home') then why would artificial plants matter outside of choking hazard for veileds?

 

[snitz427]

I love bioactive... I think that people over think it. Its basically just a huge flower pot with good drainage.

I can definitely speak to the plant pest part, as I am currently battling (and losing) nearly every plant pest there is in my cages. Mealy bugs, scale, white fly, and freaking artillery fungi! (The absolute worst). These pests complicate matters and are very hard (re impossible) to treat organically in the cage, so i have to pulll the plants to wash them (and the cage) every few weeks.

While these same pests are common on potted plants, in non-bioactive setups, the difference with the bioactive setup is that its not as easy to remove everything if needed. It shouldnt be needed, but id it is, its more work than just pulling the planter out.

This is also why I very very very strongly suggest washing your branches and all plants with Dawn dish soap and blasts of water before placing them in your tank. Its not for the chameleon’s health, its so you dont accidentally introduce a pest into your cage (that wont hurt the came, but WILL make a mess for you)!

The artillery fungus came from wood chips in the soil I bought. Bummer... but Ill stick to charcoal for aeration instead, me thinks.

 

[snitz427]

And we forgot, isn't It more natural for a chameleon to look at the ground and see leaves/soil? If that doesn't matter(and I'm not necessarily saying it does, though imo it makes them feel more 'at home') then why would artificial plants matter outside of choking hazard for veileds?

My guys were noticeably ”happier” when I put them in bio soil. Also, I’ve watched the veiled and kinyongia “spit out” debris they picked up with their tongue. Some stuff they swallow (soft stuff), some stuff they remove from their mouths with their tongues, mits, or wiping their face on the branches.

 

[DocZ]

Oh boy, folks, slow down! Why are we comparing the immunology of humans (mammals) to reptiles? They are very different animals with very different anatomy. If we look at science that is relevant for reptiles, it becomes clear that these types of comparisons are uninformed and potentially dangerous for the chams. Reptiles do not have the same ability to improve their "humoral (immune) response". This means they cannot get exposed to pathogens in their environment and develop a robust immune response through the creation of antibodies like mammals can or at the very least they are far less efficient at it. It turns out their immune system is less complex than ours and relies much more on inherited antibodies. See the abstract for a scientific paper on reptile immunology that is my evidence here. Source: Rios and Zimmerman Immunology of Reptiles (2015) .

It seems in a very hasty effort to justify bioactivity, some very questionable leaps in logic occurred and suspect comparisons have been made. So bioactive is good for humans and their immunity but definitely not the reptiles. I think this demonstrates what this conversation is all about: there are more benefits of bioactivity for human cham keepers than the chams themselves.

I think like with most things in reptiles the research is far less robust than in humans and other mammals. They do show a slower, less efficient humoral immunity. They do not possess the human IgM/IgG response and do not have lymph nodes like humans either. They do possess IgM/IgY (believed to be an IgG precursor), the also have non-specific antibodies that are both preexisting and increased in response to exposures.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-76768-0_20

They also possess some of the T and B cell lines supporting adaptive immunity as noted In your article. So to entirely dismiss adaptive immunity in reptiles over research regarding reptile immunity that is both different than what we understand in humans and also incomplete may also be hasty.

 

[jamest0o0]

I love bioactive... I think that people over think it. Its basically just a huge flower pot with good drainage.

I can definitely speak to the plant pest part, as I am currently battling (and losing) nearly every plant pest there is in my cages. Mealy bugs, scale, white fly, and freaking artillery fungi! (The absolute worst). These pests complicate matters and are very hard (re impossible) to treat organically in the cage, so i have to pulll the plants to wash them (and the cage) every few weeks.

While these same pests are common on potted plants, in non-bioactive setups, the difference with the bioactive setup is that its not as easy to remove everything if needed. It shouldnt be needed, but id it is, its more work than just pulling the planter out.

This is also why I very very very strongly suggest washing your branches and all plants with Dawn dish soap and blasts of water before placing them in your tank. Its not for the chameleon’s health, its so you dont accidentally introduce a pest into your cage (that wont hurt the came, but WILL make a mess for you)!

The artillery fungus came from wood chips in the soil I bought. Bummer... but Ill stick to charcoal for aeration instead, me thinks.

The plant pest part is one thing I'll admit to being careful. If you have delicate plants, they can be a problem, really for any set up not just bio. I personally don't like to sterilize(boil/bake/bleach) branches, but for removing pests giving them a quick cleaning on the outside makes a lot of sense.

 

[DocZ]

Oh boy, folks, slow down! Why are we comparing the immunology of humans (mammals) to reptiles? They are very different animals with very different anatomy. If we look at science that is relevant for reptiles, it becomes clear that these types of comparisons are uninformed and potentially dangerous for the chams. Reptiles do not have the same ability to improve their "humoral (immune) response". This means they cannot get exposed to pathogens in their environment and develop a robust immune response through the creation of antibodies like mammals can or at the very least they are far less efficient at it. It turns out their immune system is less complex than ours and relies much more on inherited antibodies. See the abstract for a scientific paper on reptile immunology that is my evidence here. Source: Rios and Zimmerman Immunology of Reptiles (2015) .

It seems in a very hasty effort to justify bioactivity, some very questionable leaps in logic occurred and suspect comparisons have been made. So bioactive is good for humans and their immunity but definitely not the reptiles. I think this demonstrates what this conversation is all about: there are more benefits of bioactivity for human cham keepers than the chams themselves.

And to be completely honest, I didn’t know $h!+ about reptile immunity until you pushed the conversation, so thank you ?
Like james mentioned earlier we are promoting the discussion of the care of our animals. It’s good for our knowledge base as a group and it leads to discovery and hopefully improved outcomes for our chameleons

 

[MissSkittles]

Gonna put my two cents in. Unfortunately, until big box pet stores stop selling animals and giving really bad husbandry advice, there will be a serious lack of responsible chameleon keepers. Thinking of my personal situation along with the many noobs who come for help, I think it’s important for new keepers to get down the basics of proper husbandry before overwhelming them with pushing bioactive on them.

 

[chamnub]

@chamnub I'll fill you in on petr if you're not aware. He is about the BEST care. Literally just a couple weeks ago he was talking about Germany's strict standards and that if you can't meet them you shouldn't have animals.

In a perfect world nobody would keep chameleons in sub optimal conditions but we know that's not happening. I would submit that all of us are for the best care, but what that is up for debate and far from certain. I'm much more focused on the reality of the hobby as I see it and not the ideal, which we are far from at this point. I said several times that bioactive is "awesome" if you know what you're doing.

I never said bioactive is always bad. I simply demonstrated that the reasons being given on this thread in favor of bioactive based on studies in mammals are contradicted by what science has found about reptile immune systems. Such hasty generalizations are dangerous. Yes, I have done bioactive setups in the past but not for chameleons. You don't realize that I joined this forum and waited years reading and learning before I started posting opinions because I did not feel qualified to talk about cham care intelligently, looking at my join date vs posts will bear that out. I wouldn't bother to discuss this if I had no experience.

There are situations where bioactivity is a requirement such as dart frogs. I learned about bioactivity from froggers years ago, long before it became a popular trend in the larger herp world like it is now. I've seen the downsides as well as the upsides. I've seen situations where keepers had to trash entire tanks and lost frogs due to the wrong type of bacteria becoming established in bioactive setups (look up mycobacteria, it's nasty stuff). I *think* this is less likely to happen in chams but I'm definitely not 100% confident in that thought. Just like a more complex machine, there are more variables or places where problems can occur in a bioactive setup. That is a fact. Does all this mean nobody should do it or that its bad husbandry? Of course not!!! Like I've said several times, it's great if you know what you're doing; if the clean up crews do their job, pests don't destroy your plants and no nasty fungus or bacteria finds its way in to your enclosure. This is not black vs white, good vs evil. We have enough polarization in other parts of society to bring it here.

In general I think Germans do have a higher standard of care for their pets but especially in the frog hobby they are notorious for being unscrupulous in their illegal smuggling of wild caught animals, regardless on the impact on wild ecosystems. Not just a long time ago but currently It's still happening now where fake paperwork is created and the animals are "laundered" in Europe and then sent to another country, like the US. That is a separate discussion, I think.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I have to agree with peter here. I do not see a bio-active set up as a necessity to keeping chameleons. I see it as two separate things. Like the difference between a planted tank, and a fish only tank. Neither is wrong but they are different in upkeep and care. one is more advanced and takes constant attention. The other is more basic and easier to follow.

As far as a "sterile environment" I don't think too many suggest that. Everybody seems to agree on live plants, which helps with humidity, as well as the beneficial bacteria you speak of. Further what constitutes Bio-active ?
All my pots have spring tails in them, and maybe some isopods, is this bio-active ? My babies are in bins with a drainage layer and just top soil with plants , isopods, springtails, is that bio-active.

I would argee that keeping them in a sterile environment is not the best Idea, I just see other ways besides Bio-active.

I personally love bio-active. I am with you that I think it is the best way, just not for everybody.

Also not sure what your issue with Peter is , but let it go.
I will take 30+ years of experience as valuable.

 

[chamnub]

So to entirely dismiss adaptive immunity in reptiles over research regarding reptile immunity that is both different than what we understand in humans and also incomplete may also be hasty.

Yes, but there's a big difference between having an incomplete understanding of reptile immunity and trying to apply what we know about mammals to reptiles in order to bolster the efficacy of a preferred husbandry practice. One is admitting that there is uncertainty the other is trying to use evidence that isn't relevant. I think there's a difference.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I'm going to counter what you're saying here

1) chameleons still regularly go to or near the ground from what I'm sure most us have seen. Mine have lived outside and aren't much further up than a cage most of the time. Another thing about that, if it is unnatural to be that close, then it is unnatural to have a dirty plastic sheet that close and maybe we should have larger cages to match.

2) not trying to be rude, but this directly contradicts what you said in other posts about strict standards and people needing to meet them before considering an animal. You were criticizing americans for doing the minimum just to get by and didn't you say in Germany, bioactive is a LEGAL requirement? (If people don't believe me I can pull up threads and link them here)

3) which parasites? I've seen more early cham deaths in barebottom than bioactive. Not saying there is a link, but if there was such a danger surely it'd be a common occurrence. The only thing that I can think of being a problem is a terrible coccidia outbreak.

4) what danger? I've had feeders in mine for years, even crickets. If you're saying they'll bite the chameleon I've never known that to be true in bio. There is almost always other food present. Once again I've only heard of chams being bitten in bare enclosures, but if I'm missing a case feel free to fill me in.

5) that's easily fixed. And your house shouldn't be so humid that your cage is so bad, then you have a home problem and not a cage problem.

6) no... ill need some proof on that. If that was the case people would be dying stepping into the woods. infact, clean set ups with sterilized branches will be more likely to have mold and fungi. Boil some wood and set it in a humid tub, now set some wood that was collected straight from the woods in a humid tub. See which one gets covered with mold... If you have live plants then you still have some bioactive soil in pots, so there's not much difference there. You just don't have as much micro fauna to take care of mold/fungi or as much aerobic bacteria compared to someone that has a fully bio set up.

7) nonsense, I've had effective bio layers an inch deep before that got rid of poop within a few hours. Also, maybe our cages should be higher then. REMEMBER we are talking about THE BEST captive care we're able to provide. That is what you've been preaching for so long petr and I'm not mocking you just going along with your way of thinking.

8) I feel you're reaching here, which headache? So a plastic sheet that needs cleaned daily isn't an unnatural headache?

Regarding everything we need to change, some of those I agree, some I don't think are as important as you make them out be. JMO. I just don't see why if you care so much about natural, you're just okay with plastic floors and then you fall back on the argument of doing minimal first when just a couple weeks ago you said:

"you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year"

Lot of holes here, biggest is don't compare captivity with wild behavior.
And your house shouldn't be so humid that your cage is so bad. How do you determine what somebodies home should be like doesn't where the live matter ?

I feel you're reaching here, which headache Ask @MissSkittles , didn't you just have an infestation ? That sounds like a headache. And that could happen in many ways aside from the keeper.

Further he never said they will happen only that they are risks.

What are you credentials ?

You claimed we did not know anything before 2000 What a joke. It was the technology that was missing.

How long have you kept Bioactive for ?
What is your oldest continuous running set up?

 

[chamnub]

As far as a "sterile environment" I don't think too many suggest that. Everybody seems to agree on live plants, which helps with humidity, as well as the beneficial bacteria you speak of. Further what constitutes Bio-active ?
All my pots have spring tails in them, and maybe some isopods, is this bio-active ? My babies are in bins with a drainage layer and just top soil with plants , isopods, springtails, is that bio-active.

I would argee that keeping them in a sterile environment is not the best Idea, I just see other ways besides Bio-active.

I personally love bio-active. I am with you that I think it is the best way, just not for everybody.

^^^ This. The "sterile" stuff is just using a straw man to make those who disagree appear to have a worse argument. A great response and far more brief than my own

 

[snitz427]

The plant pest part is one thing I'll admit to being careful. If you have delicate plants, they can be a problem, really for any set up not just bio. I personally don't like to sterilize(boil/bake/bleach) branches, but for removing pests giving them a quick cleaning on the outside makes a lot of sense.

I agree, I think baking is overkill (but I avoid cracked or decaying woods). A good hosing off will do it. For plants, the dish soap smothers a lot of plant pets... mealybugs loose their waxy coatings a die. And the dish soap helps remove the sticky honeydew that plant pests leave behind. I use the soap for everything, even the cage with soil in it. (Honeydew sucks and gets everywhere).

 

[PetNcs]

@PetNcs lays out cogent arguments on the limitations of "bioactivity". I have to agree. Bioactive setups are great for committed keepers who are willing and able to deal with the added complexity that bioactivity entails. I have to point out that there are posts on this forum daily that demonstrate a lot of cham owners don't seem capable of proper supplementation, providing basic care like egg bins for females, proper temperature and humidity or even doing basic research. Do we think adding more variables like maintenance of microfauna colonies, false bottoms, and substrate to these situations is a good idea for the chams?

Chams are delicate enough as is and we don't need to encourage extra complexity when fundamentals have not been mastered. Of course chameleons can be kept in bioactive setups. However, there's a lot of slick marketing as well as an intense social media pull for new people to set up their own "rainforest" that we must be conscious of. Further, I think bioactivity is oversold as "low maintenance" and "self-cleaning", I think it gives people the wrong idea. While bioactivity when well executed in the right context is awesome, I think we need to critically examine bioactivity and pay attention to context: who benefits in selling us more products? Does a bioactive setup make sense given the conditions and needs of the animal? Is this driven by demonstrable benefits for the animals, or emotions, social media, and marketing?

Saying that those with concerns about bioactivity are trying to promote an unrealistic "sterile" environment is fallacy. I do not think a sterile environment is ideal - even if it were possible. Insisting you can achieve a completely sterile chameleon habitat is just as absurd as claiming you can actually replicate natural habitat in captivity. You can get closer to a natural feeling environment with bioactivity, and that's awesome, but there's plenty of evidence in our faces every day that it's not for everyone. We should be encouraging and establish solid basic care before pushing everyone to go bioactive.

I can sign every word of it!
I am a friend of real nioactivity in the right situation and maturity of the keeper

 

[PetNcs]

1) chameleons still regularly go to or near the ground from what I'm sure most us have seen. Mine have lived outside and aren't much further up than a cage most of the time. Another thing about that, if it is unnatural to be that close, then it is unnatural to have a dirty plastic sheet that close and maybe we should have larger cages to match.

From tenths of thousands of chameleons I have seen in the wild, I have seen an ignoranle number of them being on oc close to ground. Of course they go there. Ut extremely rarely. A. Aotive inservation is biassed and in alid. Therefore, the need to imitate something, they almost never experience is not logical.
in huge cages YES!
If you want ti say we keep them in a way too little cages, i absolutely agree and prepare an offensive to change it... things need to be favorable to do so
The most US people will ask
Where ti buy it? And there is still no relevant answer to it

 

[PetNcs]

2) not trying to be rude, but this directly contradicts what you said in other posts about strict standards and people needing to meet them before considering an animal. You were criticizing americans for doing the minimum just to get by and didn't you say in Germany, bioactive is a LEGAL requirement? (If people don't believe me I can pull up threads and link them here)

this is an unnecessary attack, as you are mistaken, Bioactivity is NOT legally required in Hermany and I jsve NEVER stated anything like that
I really do rnjoy the no le way of debating and cballenging each otjer respectfully, this reminds me on old time when I even decided ti leave CF
Please, challenge me and ask whatever, but do not twist my words and do not construct nonexisting arguments

 

[PetNcs]

3) which parasites? I've seen more early cham deaths in barebottom than bioactive. Not saying there is a link, but if there was such a danger surely it'd be a common occurrence. The only thing that I can think of being a problem is a terrible coccidia outbreak.

in WC, monoxenous Parasites such as roundworms, cryptosporidians, amoebas and others will easily survive in the moist and mild temp environment of the bioactive enclosure and easily contaminate back the higjer strata either via dust or via critters or via(escaped) feeders...
In CB this danger is minute, in WF real
I am not hysterical jere but to list it as a potential danger is dair and correct IMHO

 

[PetNcs]

4) what danger? I've had feeders in mine for years, even crickets. If you're saying they'll bite the chameleon I've never known that to be true in bio. There is almost always other food present. Once again I've only heard of chams being bitten in bare enclosures, but if I'm missing a case feel free to fill me in.

well in properly managed. Ioactive serups, the danger is minute, but itnis still there. I solve critters inuury as an issue wuite often, including bioactive enclosures. Again, I fo not overestimate the importanfe of this step but to list it as a danger is fair and correct IMHO
Awarenness of danger is great as it can be easily mittigated and orevents unnecessary surorizes

 

[PetNcs]

5) that's easily fixed. And your house shouldn't be so humid that your cage is so bad, then you have a home problem and not a cage problem.

6) no... ill need some proof on that. If that was the case people would be dying stepping into the woods. infact, clean set ups with sterilized branches will be more likely to have mold and fungi. Boil some wood and set it in a humid tub, now set some wood that was collected straight from the woods in a humid tub. See which one gets covered with mold... If you have live plants then you still have some bioactive soil in pots, so there's not much difference there. You just don't have as much micro fauna to take care of mold/fungi or as much aerobic bacteria compared to someone that has a fully bio set up.

Motmtoo much to argue about. I am right same as you are. The humidity issue is real especially in less. Entillsted cages, where tk het the wanted below 40% rate can be a challenge with nioactive substrate
If you did not, I have seen mismanaged pseudonioactive setup thag instead of natiral process produced excessive fungal growth and ai took smesrs of the walls and the comcentration of nacteria was extremely high.
I insist it is a valid point.
let us please not get into debate of the type “whatever you say, Petr, is valid only while mismanaging either the. Ioactive psrt or the whole cage” as this is of course true and I agree. I see my role to make people aware of the dangers to be able to chack and if all is OK, perfect. But nit ti look is a bigger mistake, as the results if uncontrolled processes xan be harmful or fatal

 

[PetNcs]

7) nonsense, I've had effective bio layers an inch deep before that got rid of poop within a few hours. Also, maybe our cages should be higher then. REMEMBER we are talking about THE BEST captive care we're able to provide. That is what you've been preaching for so long petr and I'm not mocking you just going along with your way of thinking.

please you asied a question about BIOACTIVITY and did not slecify that we see talking a out ideal care. I talk therefore a out real care.
If you will lanel my valid thougjts with “NONSENSE”
Again, I will stop rwapomding to you. Bioactive layers are typically NOT an inch deep but usually much thicker. For small species amd smaller cages, my comment is valid,
Especially if you would like to imitate a leaf layer. I worh with. Ioactive or nesr-niosctive layers for decades Amd my experiemce is, the thinner yoj make them the less stanle they are, I jabe in a xage now a laEr of a out 1 i. And it is a nightmare to keep it alive to controll it not to be too moist or too dry... ormal thickness I work witb is 2-4in aporox and in a 2ft cage, it is almost 29per
Cent of the total height...