Bioactive, where you at petr!

[jamest0o0]

@PetNcs playing around, but respectfully, why don't you speak on bioactivity more often? One unnatural thing that many people do is have a plastic, sterile floor along with sterilized branches and everything else. It seems like there is a lot of info out there showing that animals and people benefit through exposure and that the natural flora/fauna create a healthy environment which outcompete the bad, while possibly boosting the immune system(I'm not a biologist, maybe someone like @DocZ can speak on this and correct me if I'm wrong). Not just with bio enclosures, but in many situations. I get that there are people that need time to transition over, or are moving, etc. I understand that as it can be a mess to move all that and I'm not trying to be hard on anyone. Just talking about how we can move towards a healthier balanced environment for our animals that simulates the positives of nature. I feel bio is largely ignored in the US still as just an option and not a beneficial addition. If we truly want the BEST shouldn't this be a wide scale change we should strive for?

I've had chameleons in at least 10, maybe closer to 20 'bioactive' set ups. Along with most of my inverts. My branches come straight from the woods, plants often sit outside, etc. So my point is, I've never had a problem with RI, impaction, or any illness. Good chance my animals were just healthy from good breeders and I'd like to think my care is solid, so I'm not saying it's certainly from how I set up things.

Only thing I'd be careful of is dangerous insects in some areas(none really here up north) or worse, pests that attack your plants(quarantine plants to avoid this).

 

[DocZ]

Definitely not my area of expertise, but studies in mice kept in sterile environments showed that there was an affect on the immune system. Bacteria in the gut stimulates all facets of the immune system, so it would make sense that moving reptiles out of "sterile" environments could also promote improved, healthy immune function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419943/

 

[jamest0o0]

Definitely not my area of expertise, but studies in mice kept in sterile environments showed that there was an affect on the immune system. Bacteria in the gut stimulates all facets of the immune system, so it would make sense that moving reptiles out of "sterile" environments could also promote improved, healthy immune function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419943/

Thank you for posting! Another thing that comes to mind...My wife was watching a show about babies. Apparently kids raised around mice, roaches, etc had less allergies and overall healthier immune systems. I've brought this up before, but that's pretty wild to me, yet it makes sense. We don't want our homes to be filthy, but a certain level seems to do people and animals well.

 

[PabloTheCham]

Thank you for posting! Another thing that comes to mind...My wife was watching a show about babies. Apparently kids raised around mice, roaches, etc had less allergies and overall healthier immune systems. I've brought this up before, but that's pretty wild to me, yet it makes sense. We don't want our homes to be filthy, but a certain level seems to do people and animals well.

I agree! I also saw an article that showed the people that handwash dishes will have healthier immune systems then people that use a dishwasher, since the plates are less clean when handwashed.
" Prior research comparing the cleanliness of dishes washed by hand to those washed by machine has shown that machine washing is more efficient and leaves fewer bacteria behind. Living in a household that hand-washes means family members are eating off of plates and cutlery that have more bacteria, and therefore more microbial exposure."

 

[DocZ]

Thank you for posting! Another thing that comes to mind...My wife was watching a show about babies. Apparently kids raised around mice, roaches, etc had less allergies and overall healthier immune systems. I've brought this up before, but that's pretty wild to me, yet it makes sense. We don't want our homes to be filthy, but a certain level seems to do people and animals well.

I've always equated the rise in allergies to immune system boredom. IgE immune proteins main function is usually fighting off parasitic infections, but they all play an important role in allergic reactions. Due to improved sanitation, water sources, and general cleanliness of human environments there is significantly less human parasitic infections, it seems as though IgE gets "bored" and decides increase reactions to non-pathogenic antigens creating allergic reactions.

 

[JoXie411]

Apparently kids raised around mice, roaches, etc

That’s why I ate rocks as a kid

 

[Lennoncham]

Apparently kids raised around mice, roaches, etc had less allergies and overall healthier immune systems.

Interestingly If exposed to them in first year of life they are less likely to develop allergies or asthma. If exposed after the first year of life there is a higher chance of developing asthma or allergies.

 

[MissSkittles]

Most of us humans are so very removed from the natural world and impose our artificiality upon the animals we keep. We forget or deny that we too are animals. We’ve created our clean sterile bubbles and to bring dirt and bugs into them goes against the mindsets we’ve learned. I love my bioactive enclosures and believe my chams are much happier in them, but it’s brought unwanted bugs into my bubble. Last week I was very ready to ditch the bioactive because of the ants. (Thankfully Terro worked quickly on them.) I grew up in the middle of nowhere surrounded by forests full of creepy crawlers that I played and got dirty in every day. Yet somewhere along the line I learned that dirt and bugs are bad things.

 

[jamest0o0]

Most of us humans are so very removed from the natural world and impose our artificiality upon the animals we keep. We forget or deny that we too are animals. We’ve created our clean sterile bubbles and to bring dirt and bugs into them goes against the mindsets we’ve learned. I love my bioactive enclosures and believe my chams are much happier in them, but it’s brought unwanted bugs into my bubble. Last week I was very ready to ditch the bioactive because of the ants. (Thankfully Terro worked quickly on them.) I grew up in the middle of nowhere surrounded by forests full of creepy crawlers that I played and got dirty in every day. Yet somewhere along the line I learned that dirt and bugs are bad things.

Similar here. I used to walk through swamp mud and catch leeches! Haha. Later on I lost interest in inverts and found a lot of them pretty gross. Only in the last few years did I become interested in them again for the unique creatures they are.

As for the ants, that's not really a bio thing. That's almost always a plant related problem. Bio or no.

 

[Mendez]

Anybody doing bioactive in screen enclosures?

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

it would make sense that moving reptiles out of "sterile" environments could also promote improved, healthy immune function.

I don't see how live plants growing in soil (with all the "bugs" that entails) and feeding a variety of live bugs (with all the smaller "bugs" in their guts) is a "sterile" environment.

I also saw an article that showed the people that handwash dishes will have healthier immune systems then people that use a dishwasher, since the plates are less clean when handwashed.

We don't do either—we just eat off the floor and hose it down every other year or so...

 

[jamest0o0]

Anybody doing bioactive in screen enclosures?

Yup I've done several

 

[jamest0o0]

I don't see how live plants growing in soil (with all the "bugs" that entails) and feeding a variety of live bugs (with all the smaller "bugs" in their guts) is a "sterile" environment.


We don't do either—we just eat off the floor and hose it down every other year or so...

It's not exactly sterile you're right, but then again, neither are people's homes that obsessively clean, yet they often seem to have vulnerable immune systems.

 

[jamest0o0]

Another thing to consider, the substrate that is bioactive is probably less likely to harbor anything dangerous when compared to a sheet of plastic which doesn't have the fauna/flora to breakdown fecal material and whatever else. Petr is all about doing things naturally and giving our animals the best we can. So I feel bioactivity falls under that category.

 

[DocZ]

I don't see how live plants growing in soil (with all the "bugs" that entails) and feeding a variety of live bugs (with all the smaller "bugs" in their guts) is a "sterile" environment.

I think the difference is in a bioactive enclosure there are specifically cultivated groups of organisms that exist to process and remove waste and make it available to health of the system that would otherwise remain and serve mostly to contaminate feeders in the system and more likely expose the reptile resident to unwanted pathogens.
my understanding is , done properly, In a bioactive system you care for an environment, and the chameleon is a resident of that cultivated environment

So no, the other enclosures aren’t sterile, but the resident microfauna and microflora are usually pathogenic vs desirable

 

[PetNcs]

@PetNcs playing around, but respectfully, why don't you speak on bioactivity more often? One unnatural thing that many people do is have a plastic, sterile floor along with sterilized branches and everything else. It seems like there is a lot of info out there showing that animals and people benefit through exposure and that the natural flora/fauna create a healthy environment which outcompete the bad, while possibly boosting the immune system(I'm not a biologist, maybe someone like @DocZ can speak on this and correct me if I'm wrong). Not just with bio enclosures, but in many situations. I get that there are people that need time to transition over, or are moving, etc. I understand that as it can be a mess to move all that and I'm not trying to be hard on anyone. Just talking about how we can move towards a healthier balanced environment for our animals that simulates the positives of nature. I feel bio is largely ignored in the US still as just an option and not a beneficial addition. If we truly want the BEST shouldn't this be a wide scale change we should strive for?

I've had chameleons in at least 10, maybe closer to 20 'bioactive' set ups. Along with most of my inverts. My branches come straight from the woods, plants often sit outside, etc. So my point is, I've never had a problem with RI, impaction, or any illness. Good chance my animals were just healthy from good breeders and I'd like to think my care is solid, so I'm not saying it's certainly from how I set up things.

Only thing I'd be careful of is dangerous insects in some areas(none really here up north) or worse, pests that attack your plants(quarantine plants to avoid this).

I do not speak about bioactivity as I am a great friend of it there, where it makes sense ut not so much where it does not.
Besides of all positives, which I will not list now, there are some serious constraints, I point out:

1. (biggest issue) due to the dact, most mept xhameleons are strictky arboreal and live many meters high up in the canopis and do NOT libe ckose to fround, simulating groind wchich is just few feet or inches below them does not reflect the natiral conditions properly
2. I see so many issues ignored by experienced prople and so many cnalrnges for newbies, rhat for newbies I humbly guess it is not an issue to get complicated with and loose focus on si many aspects to be settled and new and for the older ones, sometimes yoj meet an absurd situation haveing eg full cd sge of plastic plants but “bioactive” environment on the floor
3. Danger of passing, long keeping and cycling parasites
4. Danger of long survival of escaped feeders (most of them are nocturnal and can effectively hide and reproduce)
5. Risk of Increase of humidity to unwanted levels
6. Risk of improper management and contamination with excessive ammounts of fingi and bacteria spores and potential harm not for chams only but for people in same rooms/buildings
7. In low height cages (under 3ft) the bioactive layer can take too much of the useable space
8. what is often “sold” as bioactive floornis another artificial and not well thought through complication and unnatural pseudoenvitonment in the cage. As bioactive, often a special layers of different substrates with too many critters actually are misunderstood bringing more headache than benefits
...

i am FOR bioactive,
I just meet too many newbies
We have too small cages
There are too many other issues to be fixed and standardized first IMHO, like finally agree on some if rhe hot topics like lower temps, simulating seasons, proper lighting and supplementation and feeding, no overfeeding, pollen, night fogging etc etc... which have mucb more direct impact on wellness and survival rate and logevity than Bioactivity of the floor

once ppl will keep their xhameleons properly,
And once we agree finally to use much bigger cages,
i will gladly focus on bioactivity
So far let us get fixed the basics

 

[chamnub]

@PetNcs lays out cogent arguments on the limitations of "bioactivity". I have to agree. Bioactive setups are great for committed keepers who are willing and able to deal with the added complexity that bioactivity entails. I have to point out that there are posts on this forum daily that demonstrate a lot of cham owners don't seem capable of proper supplementation, providing basic care like egg bins for females, proper temperature and humidity or even doing basic research. Do we think adding more variables like maintenance of microfauna colonies, false bottoms, and substrate to these situations is a good idea for the chams?

Chams are delicate enough as is and we don't need to encourage extra complexity when fundamentals have not been mastered. Of course chameleons can be kept in bioactive setups. However, there's a lot of slick marketing as well as an intense social media pull for new people to set up their own "rainforest" that we must be conscious of. Further, I think bioactivity is oversold as "low maintenance" and "self-cleaning", I think it gives people the wrong idea. While bioactivity when well executed in the right context is awesome, I think we need to critically examine bioactivity and pay attention to context: who benefits in selling us more products? Does a bioactive setup make sense given the conditions and needs of the animal? Is this driven by demonstrable benefits for the animals, or emotions, social media, and marketing?

Saying that those with concerns about bioactivity are trying to promote an unrealistic "sterile" environment is fallacy. I do not think a sterile environment is ideal - even if it were possible. Insisting you can achieve a completely sterile chameleon habitat is just as absurd as claiming you can actually replicate natural habitat in captivity. You can get closer to a natural feeling environment with bioactivity, and that's awesome, but there's plenty of evidence in our faces every day that it's not for everyone. We should be encouraging and establish solid basic care before pushing everyone to go bioactive.

 

[chamnub]

Definitely not my area of expertise, but studies in mice kept in sterile environments showed that there was an affect on the immune system. Bacteria in the gut stimulates all facets of the immune system, so it would make sense that moving reptiles out of "sterile" environments could also promote improved, healthy immune function.

agree! I also saw an article that showed the people that handwash dishes will have healthier immune systems then people that use a dishwasher, since the plates are less clean when handwashed.
" Prior research comparing the cleanliness of dishes washed by hand to those washed by machine has shown that machine washing is more efficient and leaves fewer bacteria behind. Living in a household that hand-washes means family members are eating off of plates and cutlery that have more bacteria, and therefore more microbial exposure."

Oh boy, folks, slow down! Why are we comparing the immunology of humans (mammals) to reptiles? They are very different animals with very different anatomy. If we look at science that is relevant for reptiles, it becomes clear that these types of comparisons are uninformed and potentially dangerous for the chams. Reptiles do not have the same ability to improve their "humoral (immune) response". This means they cannot get exposed to pathogens in their environment and develop a robust immune response through the creation of antibodies like mammals can or at the very least they are far less efficient at it. It turns out their immune system is less complex than ours and relies much more on inherited antibodies. See the abstract for a scientific paper on reptile immunology that is my evidence here. Source: Rios and Zimmerman Immunology of Reptiles (2015) .

It seems in a very hasty effort to justify bioactivity, some very questionable leaps in logic occurred and suspect comparisons have been made. So bioactive is good for humans and their immunity but definitely not the reptiles. I think this demonstrates what this conversation is all about: there are more benefits of bioactivity for human cham keepers than the chams themselves.

 

[jamest0o0]

@chamnub I'll fill you in on petr if you're not aware. He is about the BEST care. Literally just a couple weeks ago he was talking about Germany's strict standards and that if you can't meet them you shouldn't have animals. So your point of just trying to get the basics by doesn't fall in line with Petr's way of thinking at all.

As for the immune systems. No one was saying it was a certainty. It was just something interesting we went off about. I never claimed to know a reptiles immune system.

You speak a lot about bioactivity. I can't tell if you have experience with it or don't do it and are trying to justify your side. So I have to ask, have you done a bio enclosure, are you familiar? If so can i see it? You seem like a smart guy and I'm not trying to be rude, but some might take my posts as an insult because they don't do it themselves. I don't mean it like that at all. Im speaking on petr's care. He wants us to be doing everything within our power to have better enclosures. Which is fair. So that brings me to this post... Not trying to force everyone into having bio... but anyway, if you're going to overcomplicate bioactivity, which is basically just normal soil, then I'd like to know you have experience with it first.

The thing that gets me is it's almost always the people that haven't done it that will overcomplicate bioactive enclosures. You can lay a thin layer of soil down and have it drain to a pan and call it bio... and it works! Of course you'd still need pots for plants, but the soil would be 'bioactive' and work just fine. The idea behind it is almost exactly the same as keeping aquariums, especially marine, for any fish people.

 

[jamest0o0]

I do not speak about bioactivity as I am a great friend of it there, where it makes sense ut not so much where it does not.
Besides of all positives, which I will not list now, there are some serious constraints, I point out:

1. (biggest issue) due to the dact, most mept xhameleons are strictky arboreal and live many meters high up in the canopis and do NOT libe ckose to fround, simulating groind wchich is just few feet or inches below them does not reflect the natiral conditions properly
2. I see so many issues ignored by experienced prople and so many cnalrnges for newbies, rhat for newbies I humbly guess it is not an issue to get complicated with and loose focus on si many aspects to be settled and new and for the older ones, sometimes yoj meet an absurd situation haveing eg full cd sge of plastic plants but “bioactive” environment on the floor
3. Danger of passing, long keeping and cycling parasites
4. Danger of long survival of escaped feeders (most of them are nocturnal and can effectively hide and reproduce)
5. Risk of Increase of humidity to unwanted levels
6. Risk of improper management and contamination with excessive ammounts of fingi and bacteria spores and potential harm not for chams only but for people in same rooms/buildings
7. In low height cages (under 3ft) the bioactive layer can take too much of the useable space
8. what is often “sold” as bioactive floornis another artificial and not well thought through complication and unnatural pseudoenvitonment in the cage. As bioactive, often a special layers of different substrates with too many critters actually are misunderstood bringing more headache than benefits
...

i am FOR bioactive,
I just meet too many newbies
We have too small cages
There are too many other issues to be fixed and standardized first IMHO, like finally agree on some if rhe hot topics like lower temps, simulating seasons, proper lighting and supplementation and feeding, no overfeeding, pollen, night fogging etc etc... which have mucb more direct impact on wellness and survival rate and logevity than Bioactivity of the floor

once ppl will keep their xhameleons properly,
And once we agree finally to use much bigger cages,
i will gladly focus on bioactivity
So far let us get fixed the basics

I'm going to counter what you're saying here

1) chameleons still regularly go to or near the ground from what I'm sure most us have seen. Mine have lived outside and aren't much further up than a cage most of the time. Another thing about that, if it is unnatural to be that close, then it is unnatural to have a dirty plastic sheet that close and maybe we should have larger cages to match.

2) not trying to be rude, but this directly contradicts what you said in other posts about strict standards and people needing to meet them before considering an animal. You were criticizing americans for doing the minimum just to get by and didn't you say in Germany, bioactive is a LEGAL requirement? (If people don't believe me I can pull up threads and link them here)

3) which parasites? I've seen more early cham deaths in barebottom than bioactive. Not saying there is a link, but if there was such a danger surely it'd be a common occurrence. The only thing that I can think of being a problem is a terrible coccidia outbreak.

4) what danger? I've had feeders in mine for years, even crickets. If you're saying they'll bite the chameleon I've never known that to be true in bio. There is almost always other food present. Once again I've only heard of chams being bitten in bare enclosures, but if I'm missing a case feel free to fill me in.

5) that's easily fixed. And your house shouldn't be so humid that your cage is so bad, then you have a home problem and not a cage problem.

6) no... ill need some proof on that. If that was the case people would be dying stepping into the woods. infact, clean set ups with sterilized branches will be more likely to have mold and fungi. Boil some wood and set it in a humid tub, now set some wood that was collected straight from the woods in a humid tub. See which one gets covered with mold... If you have live plants then you still have some bioactive soil in pots, so there's not much difference there. You just don't have as much micro fauna to take care of mold/fungi or as much aerobic bacteria compared to someone that has a fully bio set up.

7) nonsense, I've had effective bio layers an inch deep before that got rid of poop within a few hours. Also, maybe our cages should be higher then. REMEMBER we are talking about THE BEST captive care we're able to provide. That is what you've been preaching for so long petr and I'm not mocking you just going along with your way of thinking.

8) I feel you're reaching here, which headache? So a plastic sheet that needs cleaned daily isn't an unnatural headache?

Regarding everything we need to change, some of those I agree, some I don't think are as important as you make them out be. JMO. I just don't see why if you care so much about natural, you're just okay with plastic floors and then you fall back on the argument of doing minimal first when just a couple weeks ago you said:

"you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year"