Baby veiled... not doing good

Discussion in 'Health Clinic' started by Hockey&Lizards, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    5B709F5C-53B6-45A4-B457-0B8B08D65E5C.jpeg 9FD93272-B77B-4590-80DE-E9CCCE072303.jpeg 9FB22DF8-9F42-4D52-8BC4-CF6D3F3352C3.jpeg I have a baby veiled...around 2 months old is my guess. We bought him from a local pet store, not a chain store. Always been super friendly, our kids love him! We have an eco terra glass vivarium, planted. We use the mist king and a dripper because he’s not a fan of being misted. He gets crickets, dubias, and a selection of worms. Right now it’s butter worms. He gets hornworms when we can find them small enough, he’s had Phoenix worms. And an occasional wax worm. He was eating fine two days ago and drinking too. Last night I noticed he was lethargic and a little weak. This morning he’s worse. He barely opens his eyes, refuses to eat or drink, and fell of his branch once.
    There’s no mucus around his nose or mouth. Urea was nice and white..
    I’ve dripped water down his nose and he just lays there with his eyes closed. Did a nice warm shower with him as well...didn’t drink.
    I read about a pedialite bath... that will be next.
    I was a bad Cham buyer- I didn’t check with our local vets to see who I could take him to before we bought him. Now I’m scrambling trying to find someone in the area....

    What can I do while I try to get him into a vet???
    Please help and thank you!!

    I’ve included pictures of him from this morning... and his cage set up.
     
  2. bobbydigital

    bobbydigital Established Member

    The good thing is you're trying to get him to a vet. Fill out the how to ask for help from so we can stress any husbandry issues that you possibly may have. Based on what I see I would get rid of the red bulb and use a regular bulb. Are you using that as a basking bulb?
     
    jamest0o0 and makkatfloof like this.
  3. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    We do use the red bulb as a basking, the other bulb is the UVA. Where is the form so I can fill it out?? Thank you!!!!!
     
    CamrynTheCham22 likes this.
  4. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
    • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
    • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
    • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
    • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
    • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
    • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

    Cage Info:
    • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
    • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
    • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
    • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
    • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
    • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
    • Location - Where are you geographically located?

    Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
     
  5. NickTide

    NickTide Avid Member

    If she is really weak (which I think she is), I would try making him drink a drop or two of water at a time with an eyedropper or syringe. Not too much or she will throw it up or possibly aspirate her. Look up how to do it first Wait an hour or two and give another drop. His eyes look sunkin in that picture. And don't handle him anymore than necessary. I think he has given up on life and won't recover without help.
     
    chameleonneeds likes this.
  6. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    Chameleon: veiled, believe it’s a male, about 2-3 months... owned for 5 weeks.
    Handling: every couple days.
    Feeding: crickets, dubias. Occasional hornworm. Butterworms, a couple pheonix worms, 2 wax worms total.
    Supplements: all reptivite, multi-vit once a month (given 2x since had), calcium w/d 2-3x week. Rest of the time is calcium w/o d
    Watering: mist king, just upped to 5 min, 4x a day due to no drinking. Usually 3 min 2x a day, 2 min 1x a day, 1 min 1x a day. Added dripper this week, drips on his ficus.
    Fecal: looks good, white with a tinge of off-white at the end.
    Cage- 18x18x24 Exo terra terrarium. Glass with venting in the front, plus screen on top.
    Lighting: LED came with terrarium set up, Zoo Med dual light with Zoo Med UV bulb and red bulb for basking. All on a timer, comes on at 7:30 am and goes off at 7:30 pm
    Temp: Digital on the bottom reads 68.4, analog on top reads 74.
    Humidity: 80% via analog at top of tank.
    Plants: He has a ficus, a bromalid, and a couple of small ivy looking plants. All were purchased from LLRetptile. Bendable sticks, no fake leaves. Clay balls at the base, then a mix of coconut fiber and organic dirt. Sporgham moss on top. Excess water is drained every other day. Also has a springtail culture.
    Placement: In a bedroom, near a window that the blackout curtain is drawn about 98% of the time. About 4 ft off the ground and approx. 5ft from an floor vent. There is a ceiling fan in the room thats usually on low.
    Geographic location: Midland, Michigan. Middle of the state.

    Problem:
    Slapshot aka Slappy he was off and I noticed last night that his eyes looked sunken. It was almost mist time, I watched and he didn't drink. I added a little hand mist to make sure he and his ficus were dripping. This morning he was laying on his branch under the basking bulb, with his eyes closed. I removed him and he was pretty weak. I supervised a warm shower making sure he was getting misted. I dripped some water on his head and it rolled off his nose. I rolled back his lip and put a drop of water in. He did not attempt to swallow. I put him back into his cage and he kept his eyes shut and walked/fell off his branch. I caught him and put him back, this time on his feeding rock. He did not move while I was gone this morning. I mixed a little pedialyte and banana baby food, and rolled back his lip and gave him a drop every half hour or so.
    He has no mucus that I can see that would indicate a respiratory infection. His mouth, what you can see of it, is nice and pink.
    I found a vet but it's over an hour away, I don't want to stress him more than he already is....but if that's what I need to do then we'll go.
     
  7. Mawtyplant

    Mawtyplant Avid Member

    Humm.. head up posture, high level of humidity all the time make me think of a possible infection, does he "puff"? make noise or open mouth?
    He look pretty bad.. a miracle is not expected and i think the vet must be his only chance

    ps:your basking spot are way too low the goal is 85 degres to 95 if my memory is good!
     
    chameleonneeds and Fireborn like this.
  8. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    Red or coloured lights are not good. Also coil uvb are not as effective as linear uvb. Veileds require t5ho lighting with 10.0 reptisun or the 12% Arcadia. For the time being if it's nice and warm out take him out in the sun for and hour a day. As said your temperatures are too cold which makes it difficult for his body to process food.
     
  9. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    Also d3 should only be given twice a month
     
    Graves923 likes this.
  10. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    Lights have all been switched out. I took him outside for about 45min and he immediately turned much greener. I talked to the Vet... we can’t get in today but he suggested Reptaboost as a stopgap.
    I’m just worried he’s going to hurt himself.. he won’t open his eyes when he’s walking and he falls. I’ve been sitting here like a mama hawk and catching him so far.
     
  11. Cham-Wow

    Cham-Wow New Member

    I would get the humidity lower to around like 50 to 60 and get a uvb bar light and a ceramic heat bulb that emits no light, also put the cage next a window so he has more stimulation. that is why he is sleeping and not doing anything all the time which is making him weak cause he is not using his muscles. And like i tell everyone, treat them how you would wanna be treated. Not trying to offend, but i would hate to live in that cage right now. Also at such a young age they are going to learn so many things and i would hate for you to teach your chameleon that she is gonna have a crappy house. They can and will kill themselves if they are unhappy. I suggest that you dont do anything right now except move the cage to a happier spot ant get that red heat light out of there. And for future reference your chameleon is a female and she will need to lay eggs once a month when she gets to be 9 to 12 months old. There are many threads explaining what to do when that happens but you have a little while.
     
  12. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    A chameleons terrarium does not need to be by a window in order to be happy. Also the danger of putting a glass enclosure by a window is the magnifying sunshine can start to over heat the terrarium. Yes there are multiple issues with this setup however some of your information is misleading. Veiled chameleons can start laying as early as 6th month of age.
     
  13. Cham-Wow

    Cham-Wow New Member

    I'm am just speaking from experience but thanks for the advice
     
  14. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    [/QUOTE]

    Anytime that you start a sentence with “I don’t want to offend but..” it always ends up being offensive.


    Humidity is back down to about 55%, lighting has been changed to a reptisun 10uvb and a daylight blue bulb.
    Color wise she’s not as yellow. She’s hanging out at the bottom of her cage, but she’s holding onto the leaf pretty well. I’ve given a drop of reptaboost on each side of the mouth. Keeping our fingers crossed!
     
    kyle0417 likes this.
  15. kyle0417

    kyle0417 Established Member

    Chameleon suicide. Never heard of that one. Also, if you didn't mean to offend, why'd you go about such a rude way to tell him his current setup isn't adequate for his cham? I think that it just needs a bit of revamping, and then it'll be a-okay for Slappy.
     
    jamest0o0 likes this.
  16. jamest0o0

    jamest0o0 Chameleon Enthusiast

    Along with what others have mentioned, I'd like to add reptivite daily(if that's what you mean) could overdose vitamin A. Most only give it 1-2x a month.

    @Cham-Wow are you serious or trolling? A chameleon killing itself because it can't look out the window? While I agree there could.be adjustments, a chameleon isn't going to get weak, shut it's eyes, and die over a short amount of time from a lack of mental stimulation. Your advice isn't just wrong, it's counterproductive, telling this person they shouldn't see a vet, making it out to be a simple fix. The fact you said you 'speak from experience' makes me wonder how many chameleons you've killed. Also, females can lay eggs much before 9-12 months old...
     
  17. chameleonneeds

    chameleonneeds Avid Member

    So much incorrect information... please just .... don't.

    Don't change to a ceramic heat emitter. Chameleons are stimulated by light so go for a spot lamp for basking. They don't need to be situated near a window to be mentally happy. And your chameleon will not kill itself. Move the cage to a happier place? Seriously? I think the experience you allegedly speak from is very VERY limited. Apart from what others have said about a female laying eggs before 9 months age ... she will NOT lay eggs every single month after laying the first clutch! Maybe once every 3 to 4 months if you really push her! But 1 clutch a year/season is natural! @Cham-Wow please refrain from offering advice from non existent experience.

    @Hockey&Lizards you really haven't done all that much wrong in the care of this chameleon. I believe when a chameleon looks like this it is very close to dying unfortunately. Chameleons are very sensitive creatures and hide their illnesses very well that is why they may look fine the one day and almost dead the next day. I personally think that the way you attempted a bioactive terrarium did not work for the chameleon. The cage looks very wet, and coupled with low temperatures it may have started a respiratory infection. You must have a very effective drainage system in a cage like this. Your chameleon probably would have done better in a cage that is almost all screened, with the same watering schedule, effective drainage and warmer temperatures. It's always a good idea to let a cage completely dry between mistings. I definitely think you overwatered for a cage like that. That misting schedule is something I'd use for my veileds outdoors in the peak of summer in South Africa - which gets really hot.
     
  18. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    Update: Slappy is still alive. Will be heading to the vet this afternoon. She has her eyes open this morning and is actually up on a branch! Personally I think her color looks much better. She’s gaping occasionally, so respiratory issue must be it. Hopefully the vet can do something! Thank you everyone so much for your advice!


    The cage is wet because I tried to get some extra water in for her yesterday..... usually it’s pretty dry. Normal set up is about 1 minute 4x a day. She also runs away from the mister.... which is where the dripper comes in. I’m leaving the cage doors open while I’m around to help alleviate excess moisture. I’m going to remove the sporgam moss to help alleviate moisture.

    We did a lot of research before deciding on a planted glass cage. We chose to do glass for safety reasons.... we also have cats and a 6 year old little boy in the house. We plan on switching to an all screen enclosure when she got bigger. A lot of Cham owners in the UK and across the country use glass terrariums very successfully. We make sure to drain any extra water ever other day. Usually there’s less than 1/4 in down in the clay ball drainage area. I’m still a newbie with lots to learn.... I appreciate everything. I hope to be a much better Cham Momma.
     
    blue_cham and jamest0o0 like this.
  19. jamest0o0

    jamest0o0 Chameleon Enthusiast

    @chameleonneeds I agree with pretty much everything you post, but I'm not sure wet/cool temperatures would cause an RI. Usually the stagnant air mixed with heat causes bacterial growth. A correct bio set up would also reduce this risk greatly. Some of my enclosures stay wet a good amount of the time and especially overnight. Maybe their is poor air circulation. What I would do if I used glass(I even do it for my solid side dragonstrand), put a computer fan at the bottom and have it turn on every hour or two for a few minutes.
     
  20. Hockey&Lizards

    Hockey&Lizards New Member

    Sadly I have to report that Slappy just passed away. As soon as I saw her gaping I ran a hot shower and got her into some steam..... and she passed away within 5 minutes. I am heartbroken that something I did wrong killed that little girl.

    Eventually we’d like to get another one but I want to make sure that the habitat is 110% correct. Chameleons are just amazing...but I just can’t get another one if we’re not taking care of it correctly. Any advice would be completely appreciated.
     

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