Baby pic

elrojo

elrojo

New Member
I brought all the males to the shop to grow them out, and now I am "stuck" with a pile of girls. This batch took almost nine months to hatch! Oddly, every egg made it, though the female ratio was quite high. My friend took some pics, but they are rather high res, so I'll post one as a link, can share more upon request.
http://i28.tinypic.com/34grb5k.jpg
Not like everyone hasn't seen baby veileds, so I won't bother you with 100 close-ups. On a related note, what do you do when you have lots of extra girls in your clutches? Morally, I'd rather use them as feeders than sell them so cheap they become impulse buys and go in a ten gallon tank with a hot rock and water bowl to die slowly. Even when moving them in bulk, people want 50/50 ratios or better.
 
Why use them as feeders?

You went through the process of breeding the parents and bringing them into the world, you have to forsee things like this to happen and be prepared for it. I say to be the honourable keeper/breeder you should sell them to people you know will give good care to them. And keep them until their time comes to be sold. Advertising on this forum is also a good way to get buyers.
 
I wouldn't use females as feeders just based on gender. But as anyone who has raised up a large number of veileds has surely experienced, a few from each clutch are just puny. A percentage of females especially, IME, seem to often be a 1/5th the size of siblings after 6-8 weeks. These individuals tend to be poorer eaters and just less "robust" in general. I don't feel their genes need to be passed on, lest it be inheritable in some way. If I could find someone who wanted a "special needs" reptile and promise not to breed it, that would be one thing. As an "honourable" breeder, I believe that culling is a virtue that many will not do, either simply for the dollar or an inherent sympathy for the weak.

I also produce quite a few snakes and Leos every year, and even valuable species/morphs that have a kink in the spine or are particularly problematic feeders swiftly are fed off to other animals in my collection or euthanized. I don't want someone to inherit a problem. Nor do I want to influence the market by selling them for a fraction of the price. But mostly, I wouldn't want these individuals bred. Mother Nature has a way of taking care of these matters that we too often choose to avoid in captivity.
 
I found everyone of my veiled babies a GOOD home and I had about half and half. 7 of my girls when to free range homes and the keeper has no intentions of ever breeding. I'm sure you could find good home for them here or someone that will take them and find them homes for you.
 
Have you dealt with the "puny" ones that occasionally appear? I don't think they could compete with others in their viv, no matter the enclosure size or amount of food offered. It isn't a high percentage, but enough to put you in this moral conundrum. This batch is too young (the last out of the egg are only a week old) to know if any exist yet, but if so I wouldn't even want the off chance to exist that they might be nursed along and eventually used to breed. A part of every breeders efforts should be aimed at the advancement of the captive species, and hobby as a whole. If a specimen fails to thrive, I am doing the entire species a disservice to let it leave my house. I don't enjoy killing the baby reptiles I adore any more than you would. But the weak have no place in the gene pool, and I firmly believe that letting them survive outside of my collection only hurts the species and future keepers...

This debate almost needs to be somewhere besides the photography thread!
 
I know this thread is a bit old but as we hear more & more pet store care issues, I find myself wondering if part of your attitude comes from being a pet store owner? LLL Reptile will buy your babies, male or female. Also why would you come on a chameleon forum and say you use baby chams as feeders? You don't think this will bother a lot of us???????
 
I've bred reptiles since 1990. I've only owned a pet store for three years. My attitude has nothing to do with my profession. Animals who produce a large number of offspring do so so that one or two will survive to reach breeding age. The rest are meant to be part of the food chain.

Morally, I would feel better about feeding off a hatchling than selling it on the cheap so that it winds up in an ill-suited environment, and lives a miserable shortened life... Or worse yet, is used for breeding and passes on weak genetics for the next generation of keepers.
 
There are plenty of reputable breeders that go to shows that are more than willing to take babies off of your hands. I don't sell anything to Petstores, however people at shows are usually willing to take the time to explain care and housing.
 
Is culling healthy viable animals because you don't want to think about them potentially going to poor homes? The breeder does have some control over that.
 
I won't sell to pet stores either! Outside of mine, I don't know of one in the state that has the experience to properly care for chams, let alone steer customers in the right direction if they encounter problems. At my own shop, I have refused more chameleon sales that I can remember. If people aren't willing to house and care for them properly, they are not leaving with one of mine. I refused a fish sale yesterday to a gentleman who never did partial water changes. These people may not shop with me in the future, but I feel that is my obligation to the animals. Much like culling. There is nothing cruel about it, if you put your emotions aside. You are strengthening the captive lineage. And *much* more gently than nature does. If you were adhering to the standards of the wild (which is impossible), almost none would be allowed to survive!

I find it odd that there is a moral line against selling to pet stores, yet selling to flippers. If the animal ultimately ends up in poor conditions, the fate of that animal is the same no matter who sold it to the final owner.
 
Personally I have no problems with culling weaklings. I have seen lots of times on here animals that are being sold as special needs. One instance comes to mind is this poor panther female whos spine was all kinked up. She was just hideous. Something that should have been fed off from the get go. The person who bred her just could not do it. I do think this is part of our responsibilities as keepers/breeders. Not to send out weaklings to possibly be bred. I dont know about some but I sure dont trust every ones word.

As for feeding hatchlings healthy or not. I do not see a problem in feeding off animals from species like veileds that produce high numbered clutches, bred by even the most novice keepers and whos captive population is in by no means threatened. I try not to compare chameleons to other animals but mice and rats are bred for feeders along with guppies and gold fish just to name a few. I dont think we can judge just because we keep the animals being fed off. Some people keep rats, guppies and goldfish. I am sure some of them feel the same way because they do keep those animals.

We are all friends here, guys. Dont hound me too hard:rolleyes:
 
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